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seedeebee(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:15 am Post subject: Fuel Pressure Ghosts

All,



I have been experiencing a problem with fuel pressure and I was wondering if 

you all had any suggestions.



First, I have a 912UL with a parallel fuel system. An electric pump is 

inline with the output of the engine driven pump. A separate line feeds the 

engine driven unit. The fuel pressure sender is located after the electric 

pump (and after a check valve) in the output line that "T"'s with the output 

of the engine driven pump.



At idle, I show 5.6 psi with the engine pump. Switching the electric pump on 

and off does not change the fuel pressure reading.



At wide open throttle, the pressure slowly drops to 0.0 on the engine pump 

alone. Adding the electric pump back in brings it to between 0.8 and 2.0. 

Reducing throttle brings the pressure reading slowly back to 5 psi or so 

regardless of whether the electric pump is on. At mid throttle, 4500 rpm, I 

can't get more than 3.5 psi. In essence, the fuel pressure varies inversely 

with throttle setting (assuming this is not indicator error).



I haven't gone for very long at 0.0, but the engine never coughed or slowed 

with that reading.



This is a new phenomenon.



Any advice or ideas?



Thanks,



Chris Banys

Mark III 912UL

10FR

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:44 am Post subject: Fuel Pressure Ghosts

| At wide open throttle, the pressure slowly drops to 0.0 on the 

engine pump

| alone.



| Any advice or ideas?

 |

| Chris Banys

| Mark III 912UL

Chris:



One thing for sure, if the fuel pressure is "actually" zeroing out for 

more than a few seconds at WOT and the engine does not quit, then it 

ain't fuel pressure, but sender.



I am not an advocate of parallel fuel systems.  Believe the electric 

pump in series with the engine driven pump is the best way to go.  Not 

much else I can say about it, but I have flown 2,500+ hours in the 

MKIII and 750+ in the FS with pumps in series.



I don't have a fuel pressure monitor, so I have no idea what the 

pressure is.  However, the 912S has flown many hours on end at WOT and 

altitudes up to 15,000 feet with out a burp.



Sometimes we tend to complicate a very simple system.



john h

mkIII (looking for a simpler way)

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Blumax008(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:51 am Post subject: Fuel Pressure Ghosts

In a message dated 6/21/2006 2:45:24 PM Eastern Standard Time,  

jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com writes:



Sometimes we tend to complicate a very simple  system.



I second that emotion...to the Nth. degree!

seedeebee(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:55 pm Post subject: Fuel Pressure Ghosts

John,



Thanks for the advice. I agree that systems should be simple, but they 

should also be redundant where possible.



What is the failure mode of the engine driven pump? Is it possible for it to 

fail in a way that would block flow from the electric pump if the two are in 

series?



Thanks again,



Chris Banys

MK III



 	  Quote: 	
		  I am not an advocate of parallel fuel systems.  Believe the electric

pump in series with the engine driven pump is the best way to go.  Not
	


much else I can say about it, but I have flown 2,500+ hours in the

MKIII and 750+ in the FS with pumps in series.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Sometimes we tend to complicate a very simple system.


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  john h

mkIII (looking for a simpler way)

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 4:42 pm Post subject: Fuel Pressure Ghosts

| What is the failure mode of the engine driven pump? Is it possible 

for it to

| fail in a way that would block flow from the electric pump if the 

two are in

| series?

|

| Thanks again,

|

| Chris Banys

| MK III

Chris:



Guess the engine driven pump on a 912 could fail in several different 

modes:



1-Prop shaft fail.  Not likely.



2-Eccentric lobe on prop shaft fail.  Not likely.



3-In and out check valves fail.  Maybe, but not likely.



4-Diaphram fail.  Maybe.



5-Spring on fuel pump arm fail.  Maybe.



6-Fuel lines fail.  Maybe.



Only way I could see a failure of the engine pump itself would be a 

very large hole in the diaphram.  The pump is a Pierburg manufactured 

in Germany for automobiles.  Seldom, if ever, see a pump failure on an 

auto.



With the electric pump to back it up, seems one would be in pretty 

good shape to make it to the next field to make necessary repairs.



I, personally, do not like the idea of doubling up on fuel lines, 

adding more check valves to the system, more fittings, etc.



Is my system complete fail safe.  Nope.  Just like anything else in 

this world, there is always the possibility that it will break. 

However, I think it is the best system for me and my airplane.



Take care,



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 8:48 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Pressure Ghosts

You probably don't have any problem. This is a volume issue that translates to pressure on the gage.

You need to consider volume along with pressure like we do in the fire service pumping water. I also manufacture diving compressors and this is the same theory we use for air volume and pressure with a surface supplied air system. When you are at idle your engine does not require a large volume of fuel so there is a back pressure (so to speak) that you get measured on the pressure gage. When you throttle up to max throttle then your engine is requiring all the volume that your pump delivers and there is no pressure left because the engine is using all the volume that the pump puts out. As you throttle back the engine needs less fuel and you have a slight excess volume which also shows that you have some available volume which reads on your gage as pressure. When you add the second pump it delivers more volume than the engine can use and it shows up as some pressure on the gage. Being at 0.0 pressure is not bad at wide open unless you need additional fuel for more rpm. If you had a larger volume pump it would show some pressure at the high rpms.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

jeepacro(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:43 am Post subject: Fuel Pressure Ghosts

Does anyone else have the same reading's on the fuel pressure like the one in question?  Are all like this?

--

Rob.



---- Roger Lee <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> wrote: 

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 You probably don't have any problem. This is a volume issue that translates to pressure on the gage.

 You need to consider volume along with pressure like we do in the fire service pumping water. I also manufacture diving compressors and this is the same theory we use for air volume and pressure with a surface supplied air system. When you are at idle your engine does not require a large volume of fuel so there is a back pressure (so to speak) that you get measured on the pressure gage. When you throttle up to max throttle then your engine is requiring all the volume that your pump delivers and there is no pressure left because the engine is using all the volume that the pump puts out. As you throttle back the engine needs less fuel and you have a slight excess volume which also shows that you have some available volume which reads on your gage as pressure. When you add the second pump it delivers more volume than the engine can use and it shows up as some pressure on the gage. Being at 0.0 pressure is not bad at wide open unless you need additional fuel for more rpm. If yo

 u!
	


 	  Quote: 	
		     had a larger volume pump it would show some pressure at the high rpms.

 

 --------

 Roger Lee

 Tucson, Az.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=42206#42206

seedeebee(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 5:32 pm Post subject: Fuel Pressure Ghosts

All,



This is not an issue of volume vs. pressure, as was vivdly demonstrated 

toady. In the past, the fuel pressure indicated 5+ psi for many hours of 

flight at different throttle settings. In the last 5-10 hours of flight, the 

pressure began to slowly get worse at the top end.



And then...



I had a momentary engine failure in flight today.



So it's not the sender either.



I was running on engine pump only, indicating 0.0 psi at 5200 rpm. It ran 

fine for a minute and a half or so, and then shuddered and lost rpm fast. I 

hit the electric pump and reduced the throttle simultaneously (adrenaline 

also automatically entered the pilot control system). The engine sprung back 

to life.



I was at 1500 feet over the approach end of the runway when this happened, 

so there wasn't much chance of an off-field landing if the electric backup 

failed to do the trick. I landed uneventfully with power to spare.



Yesterday I tested the sender and it seemed not to be working. I blamed the 

sender, but for today's flight I took off with the electric pump engaged (as 

always) and shut it down on downwind.



I'll be replacing the engine driven pump before the next flight.



Chris B

MK III 912 UL

Desparately seeking reliability...

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 5:58 pm Post subject: Fuel Pressure Ghosts

I am firmly sold on Hauck's method, augmented by my method: Put the two 

pumps in line (Hauck) and then run both of them at all times when 

committing aviation. (Pike)

Have the electric pump below the level of the fuel tank, in a position 

where it will always be primed. Turn on the electric pump to prime the 

carbs and start the engine, and then shut it off. Taxi out and do a run 

up on the engine pump to verify that it works, (Take long enough and run 

it hard enough to drain the float bowls if that is going to happen) and 

verify it will pull fuel through a shut down electric pump. Then turn on 

the electric pump and then take off. Your experience today validates 

this method.

Also, I like to have the fuel pressure gauge pickup between the electric 

pump and the engine driven pump. It is unlikely that you will have a 

failure mode on the engine driven pump that is so bad the electric pump 

will be unable to force fuel through it, so if you can verify that the 

electric pump is pressurizing the system between itself and the engine 

pump, then you know your status. On a 582 with a Mikuni double pumper 

pulse pump, the Facet gives 3.5 pounds at idle, and 2 pounds at full 

throttle between itself and the Mikuni. Comforting to watch as I climb 

out over those big electric towers...

Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)



c b wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 All,



 This is not an issue of volume vs. pressure, as was vivdly 

 demonstrated toady. In the past, the fuel pressure indicated 5+ psi 

 for many hours of flight at different throttle settings. In the last 

 5-10 hours of flight, the pressure began to slowly get worse at the 

 top end.



 And then...



 I had a momentary engine failure in flight today.



 So it's not the sender either.



 I was running on engine pump only, indicating 0.0 psi at 5200 rpm. It 

 ran fine for a minute and a half or so, and then shuddered and lost 

 rpm fast. I hit the electric pump and reduced the throttle 

 simultaneously (adrenaline also automatically entered the pilot 

 control system). The engine sprung back to life.



 I was at 1500 feet over the approach end of the runway when this 

 happened, so there wasn't much chance of an off-field landing if the 

 electric backup failed to do the trick. I landed uneventfully with 

 power to spare.



 Yesterday I tested the sender and it seemed not to be working. I 

 blamed the sender, but for today's flight I took off with the electric 

 pump engaged (as always) and shut it down on downwind.



 I'll be replacing the engine driven pump before the next flight.



 Chris B

 MK III 912 UL

 Desparately seeking reliability...



 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 http://wiki.matronics.com

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:58 pm Post subject: Fuel Pressure Ghosts

Yesterday I tested the sender and it seemed not to be working. I blamed the

 	  Quote: 	
		   sender, but for today's flight I took off with the electric pump engaged 

 (as always) and shut it down on downwind.


	




I am having a bit of a difficult time understanding why you guys do not want 

to run an electric fuel pump all the time. I understand it is normal 

procedure in a GA plane to cut the boost pump off after attaining altitude, 

but why not continue to run the electric facet pump. Their lifetime is 

measured in the thousands of hours. If you are worried about it pumping too 

much fuel, then buy one that has a pressure limit within parameters. Or put 

a pressure regulator on it. The plane is way to noisy for you to be bothered 

with the noise that they make. I have one on my plane simply because I run 

the gas through a selector switch that is by the throttle, therefore below 

the level that they recommend for the Rotax fuel pump. When I first put it 

on I too tried cutting it off after I had taken off. In one high speed pull 

out I heard the engine cough, I have never cut it off since. I personally 

cannot think of a way that it would be detrimental to have one running all 

the time and at about 28 bucks, I think I could even buy one each year if I 

thought that it was necessary.



Larry, Oregon

seedeebee(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:16 pm Post subject: Fuel Pressure Ghosts

 	  Quote: 	
		  I am having a bit of a difficult time understanding why you guys do not 

want

to run an electric fuel pump all the time.
	




Larry,



I normally leave the electric pump on all the time. I decided to shut it off 

on downwind this time as I cannot run WOT on the ground (for long) and I 

wanted to cross-check my diagnosis.



Chris

Dave Bigelow

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 103
Location: Kamuela, Hawaii

Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:28 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Pressure Ghosts

Series plumbing of Fuel system with engine driven pump and electric pump on one line from tank to engine.



Pros:  Simple with only one fuel line.

Cons:  Potential for failure of electric or engine pump to block or restrict all the fuel flow to engine.

Parallel plumbing of Fuel system with engine driven pump and electric pump on seperate lines from tank to engine.



Pros:  Failure of one pump will not restrict the fuel flow from the other pump.

Cons:  Both fuel lines must have a check valve to prevent circular flow of fuel if one pump fails or is shut off.  Both the engine and electric pumps normally have check valves built in.  Check valves in electric pump can be checked by turning off electric pump for a minute or two before flight.  Engine pump check valve integrity cannot be checked before flight.

_________________
Dave Bigelow
Kamuela, Hawaii
FS2, HKS 700E

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 3:29 am Post subject: Fuel Pressure Ghosts

Larry,



Regarding running electric fuel  pump all the time.



Although an electric pump may be good for thousands of hours, this says 

nothing of the DUTY CYCLE it is designed for. If the pump is rated at 

100% duty cycle then it should come close to its MTBF (mean time before 

failure) running full time. However, if it is rated for X-thousand 

hours at say 50% duty cycle, you should not expect the total hours of 

running to reach the MTBF. Heat build up after running for more than 

short intervals is frequently the reason for rating a particular motor/ 

pump at less than 100% duty cycle.



That said, I have no idea what percentage duty cycle your pump is rated 

for. You may be able to find out the duty cycle rating from the 

manufacturer for this particular pump model. If it is less than 100% 

you might want to consider changing your operating procedures. If it is 

100% then turn it on and leave it on with a clear conscience.



Thom in Buffalo

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 5:47 am Post subject: Fuel Pressure Ghosts

| I normally leave the electric pump on all the time. I decided to 

shut it off

| on downwind this time as I cannot run WOT on the ground (for long) 

and I

| wanted to cross-check my diagnosis.

|

| Chris

|



Hi Chris:



Curious.  Why can't you run WOT on the ground (for long)?



Not having a heating problem with the 912? or not taking the time to 

tie the aircraft down?



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 6:24 am Post subject: Fuel Pressure Ghosts

 	  Quote: 	
		   Regarding running electric fuel  pump all the time.



 That said, I have no idea what percentage duty cycle your pump is rated 

 for. You may be able to find out the duty cycle rating from the 

 manufacturer for this particular pump model. If it is less than 100% you 

 might want to consider changing your operating procedures. If it is 100% 

 then turn it on and leave it on with a clear conscience.


	




I wonder do they sell pumps that are obviously required to keep an engine 

running that would only have a 50 percent duty cycle? It is only a WAG on my 

part but I don't think so. No real research was done on this particular 

conclusion, other than the one that I ran on the Miller Big 40 welder that I 

used at work every day, but I think I will leave mine running all the time. 

Oh by the way the welder after 1600 hours quit working, but it was still 

getting fuel since the pump still worked. If the one on my plane does fail, 

then perhaps the pulse pump will keep me in the air until I can reach the 

ground. My point was- that it doesn't make sense to worry about the life of 

a $28.00 part when your plane and butt is obviously worth more. Of course 

that is a determination that you will have to make for yourself.

Larry, Oregon

seedeebee(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 6:50 am Post subject: Fuel Pressure Ghosts

 	  Quote: 	
		  Curious.  Why can't you run WOT on the ground (for long)?


	


John,



Good question.



I suppose I could run WOT on the ground with a proper anchor system and a 

competent person at the controls. I might even qualify someday...



Chris

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 7:13 am Post subject: Fuel Pressure Ghosts

| Although an electric pump may be good for thousands of hours, this

says

| nothing of the DUTY CYCLE it is designed for.  |

| Thom in Buffalo



Thom:



Haven't done any formal research on the subject, but if you go back a

few years you will find that Mazda trucks used a Facet Electric Fuel

Pump as primary and only pump source, which operated 100% of the time.



The Rotax 914 does not use an engine driven fuel pump, but does uses

two electric fuel pumps.  Don't know who makes them.



Purolator makes Facets.  Never did find the "actual" specs on the

pump, but they are sold universally for primary pumps in marine,

automotive, racing, and experimental aircraft and primary and backup

pumps.  I will venture a guess that they are 100% duty cycle pumps.



Well........I did take a peek at Purolator's web page.  Here is a link 

to go to their application page.  They do give 6,000 hours for the 

replacement for the cube type Facet, but could not find expected life 

of their other pumps.  Based on application for all their pumps, I 

would venture to say they are all continuous duty type pumps.

 | Although an electric pump may be good for thousands of hours, this

says

| nothing of the DUTY CYCLE it is designed for.  |

| Thom in Buffalo



Thom:



Haven't done any formal reasearch on the subject, but if you go back a

few years you will find that Mazda trucks used a Facet Electric Fuel

Pump as primary and only pump source, which operated 100% of the time.



The Rotax 914 does not use an engine driven fuel pump, but does uses

two electric fuel pumps.  Don't know who makes them.



Purolator makes Facets.  Never did find the "actual" specs on the

pump, but they are sold universally for primary pumps in marine,

automotive, racing, and experimental aircraft and primary and backup

pumps.  I will venture a guess that they are 100% duty cycle pumps.



http://www.facet-purolator.com/mcl/media/Appref/hd_pdfs/Facet_Guide_2004.pdf

http://www.facet-purolator.com/solidstate.asp



http://www.facet-purolator.com/Default1.html



Almost forgot.  I have a 4kw Onan Generator that uses a Facet 

Electronic Fuel Pump.  It has been pumping away for more than 2,500 

hours with out a hiccup.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Eugene Zimmerman

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 392

Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 7:33 am Post subject: Fuel Pressure Ghosts

Yeah Thom,

And what is the duty cycle of the Rotax charging system?

On Jun 23, 2006, at 7:28 AM, Thom Riddle wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Larry,



 Regarding running electric fuel  pump all the time.



 Although an electric pump may be good for thousands of hours, this  

 says nothing of the DUTY CYCLE it is designed for. If the pump is  

 rated at 100% duty cycle then it should come close to its MTBF  

 (mean time before failure) running full time. However, if it is  

 rated for X-thousand hours at say 50% duty cycle, you should not  

 expect the total hours of running to reach the MTBF. Heat build up  

 after running for more than short intervals is frequently the  

 reason for rating a particular motor/ pump at less than 100% duty  

 cycle.



 That said, I have no idea what percentage duty cycle your pump is  

 rated for. You may be able to find out the duty cycle rating from  

 the manufacturer for this particular pump model. If it is less than  

 100% you might want to consider changing your operating procedures.  

 If it is 100% then turn it on and leave it on with a clear conscience.



 Thom in Buffalo





 www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 wiki.matronics.com

rlaird

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Houston

Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 7:43 am Post subject: Fuel Pressure Ghosts

Chris --



I  had a similar problem, with a Facet and mechanical pump in series.

With the help of a fuel flow gauge, I was able to determine that one

of the check valves built into the Facet was partially open, thus

restricting large amounts of fuel, but not small amounts.  If I kept

the Facet turned on, no problems.  But if I turned it off, the

mechanical pump alone could not overcome the restriction so on WOT the

fuel flow would not keep up with the need for fuel.



This is why I'll always fly with a fuel flow meter in my aircraft.



  -- Robert

On 6/22/06, c b <seedeebee(at)hotmail.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 All,



 This is not an issue of volume vs. pressure, as was vivdly demonstrated

 toady. In the past, the fuel pressure indicated 5+ psi for many hours of

 flight at different throttle settings. In the last 5-10 hours of flight, the

 pressure began to slowly get worse at the top end.



 And then...



 I had a momentary engine failure in flight today.



 So it's not the sender either.



 I was running on engine pump only, indicating 0.0 psi at 5200 rpm. It ran

 fine for a minute and a half or so, and then shuddered and lost rpm fast. I

 hit the electric pump and reduced the throttle simultaneously (adrenaline

 also automatically entered the pilot control system). The engine sprung back

 to life.



 I was at 1500 feet over the approach end of the runway when this happened,

 so there wasn't much chance of an off-field landing if the electric backup

 failed to do the trick. I landed uneventfully with power to spare.



 Yesterday I tested the sender and it seemed not to be working. I blamed the

 sender, but for today's flight I took off with the electric pump engaged (as

 always) and shut it down on downwind.



 I'll be replacing the engine driven pump before the next flight.



 Chris B

 MK III 912 UL

 Desparately seeking reliability...

_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Laird
formerly: MkIIIc w/ 912ULS & Gyrobee
current: Autogyro Cavalon w/ 914ULS
Houston, TX area
http://www.Texas-Flyer.com

Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 8:34 am Post subject: Fuel Pressure Ghosts

<< I am firmly sold on Hauck's method, augmented by my method: Put the two

pumps in line (Hauck) and then run both of them at all times when 

committing aviation. (Pike) >>



I agree 100 percent.  This is how my fuel system is plumbed (mech pump +

Facet in series), and also how I operate my 912 (run the elec fuel pump on

all the time).  No pressure sender, no extraneous tees or junctions.

Although I cannot boast thousands of hours with this setup, I have had zero

problems so far.  Thanks for the tips, John and Richard!



Dennis Kirby

Mark-III, 912ul, 60 hrs

New Mexico

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