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bmwebb(at)cox.net
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 Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 5:04 pm Post subject: Motor mounting |
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Folks,
I am getting ready to mount up my motor (Geo 3 cylinder) and I need to order the tubing. What size tubing should I get? I have the 582 mount for reference, but without cutting into it, I have no idea as to the wall thickness.
Also, does anyone have the thrust line for the Kitfox Model 2? My manual has no reference to it. I know where the 582 sat in relation, but are there hard numbers?
Also, is th4ere any thrust offset? Most are down and to the side. Any idea what it should be?
Thanks,
Bradley
N1836
Middle Georgia
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ruebd(at)skymail.csus.edu
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| Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 6:37 am Post subject: Motor mounting |
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Bradley:
I would suggest you ask the current owner of KITFOX, which is John and Debra McBean. They are the best source of knowledge of the various models of Kitfoxes, and have many parts and supplies on hand. They also have the benefit of a large body of experience with the airplanes and the builders, and if someone else would need to be brought into the discussion to help, they do not hesitate to suggest that.
When I ‘Google’ “Kitfox aircraft” their site is the first one to come up, so you should have no trouble finding them.
Good luck with your airplane, it should be more fun than even you might have thought possible.
Duane Rueb
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bradley M Webb
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 6:04 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Motor mounting
Folks,
I am getting ready to mount up my motor (Geo 3 cylinder) and I need to order the tubing. What size tubing should I get? I have the 582 mount for reference, but without cutting into it, I have no idea as to the wall thickness.
Also, does anyone have the thrust line for the Kitfox Model 2? My manual has no reference to it. I know where the 582 sat in relation, but are there hard numbers?
Also, is th4ere any thrust offset? Most are down and to the side. Any idea what it should be?
Thanks,
Bradley
N1836
Middle Georgia
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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bmwebb(at)cox.net
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 1:44 pm Post subject: Motor mounting |
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Thanks Duane. John was most helpful, and responded quickly late last night, even though he has a new business to run. Amazing. It looks really good for us ‘foxers now.
My hope is the Geo will make this great airplane even better. Hard to imagine improving the fun factor, but the new motor should reduce costs, reduce maintenance, and give a safer, smoother ride.
Bradley
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rueb, Duane
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 10:37 AM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Motor mounting
Bradley:
I would suggest you ask the current owner of KITFOX, which is John and Debra McBean. They are the best source of knowledge of the various models of Kitfoxes, and have many parts and supplies on hand. They also have the benefit of a large body of experience with the airplanes and the builders, and if someone else would need to be brought into the discussion to help, they do not hesitate to suggest that.
When I ‘Google’ “Kitfox aircraft” their site is the first one to come up, so you should have no trouble finding them.
Good luck with your airplane, it should be more fun than even you might have thought possible.
Duane Rueb
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bradley M Webb
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 6:04 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Motor mounting
Folks,
I am getting ready to mount up my motor (Geo 3 cylinder) and I need to order the tubing. What size tubing should I get? I have the 582 mount for reference, but without cutting into it, I have no idea as to the wall thickness.
Also, does anyone have the thrust line for the Kitfox Model 2? My manual has no reference to it. I know where the 582 sat in relation, but are there hard numbers?
Also, is th4ere any thrust offset? Most are down and to the side. Any idea what it should be?
Thanks,
Bradley
N1836
Middle Georgia
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
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msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:15 pm Post subject: Motor mounting |
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Hey Bradley.
Please keep us posted with details and pictures of your progress. The Geo engine sounds like a great alternative. Those Rotaxes (bless 'em) are getting expensive to maintain.
do not archive
Bradley M Webb <bmwebb(at)cox.net> wrote:
| Quote: | v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } Thanks Duane. John was most helpful, and responded quickly late last night, even though he has a new business to run. Amazing. It looks really good for us ‘foxers now.
My hope is the Geo will make this great airplane even better. Hard to imagine improving the fun factor, but the new motor should reduce costs, reduce maintenance, and give a safer, smoother ride.
Bradley
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rueb, Duane
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 10:37 AM
To: <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Motor mounting
Bradley:
I would suggest you ask the current owner of KITFOX, which is John and Debra McBean. They are the best source of knowledge of the various models of Kitfoxes, and have many parts and supplies on hand. They also have the benefit of a large body of experience with the airplanes and the builders, and if someone else would need to be brought into the discussion to help, they do not hesitate to suggest that.
When I ‘Google’ “Kitfox aircraft” their site is the first one to come up, so you should have no trouble finding them.
Good luck with your airplane, it should be more fun than even you might have thought possible.
Duane Rueb
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bradley M Webb
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 6:04 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Motor mounting
Folks,
I am getting ready to mount up my motor (Geo 3 cylinder) and I need to order the tubing. What size tubing should I get? I have the 582 mount for reference, but without cutting into it, I have no idea as to the wall thickness.
Also, does anyone have the thrust line for the Kitfox Model 2? My manual has no reference to it. I know where the 582 sat in relation, but are there hard numbers?
Also, is th4ere any thrust offset? Most are down and to the side. Any idea what it should be?
Thanks,
Bradley
N1836
Middle Georgia
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Marco Menezes
Model 2 582 N99KX
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
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bmwebb(at)cox.net
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:06 pm Post subject: Motor mounting |
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As I’ve posted before, I am not a Rotax fan. That being said, I do believe that they are ok engines, IF you agree to spend the money and time on them that they need to perform correctly. I was not in agreement to that. So I searched for an alternative, and the Geo floated to the top. It is comparable in weight, comparable in power, and has some distinct advantages for my intended mission. I will post up when it gets finished.
Bradley
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco Menezes
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 6:14 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Motor mounting
Hey Bradley.
Please keep us posted with details and pictures of your progress. The Geo engine sounds like a great alternative. Those Rotaxes (bless 'em) are getting expensive to maintain.
do not archive
Bradley M Webb <bmwebb(at)cox.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
Thanks Duane. John was most helpful, and responded quickly late last night, even though he has a new business to run. Amazing. It looks really good for us ‘foxers now.
My hope is the Geo will make this great airplane even better. Hard to imagine improving the fun factor, but the new motor should reduce costs, reduce maintenance, and give a safer, smoother ride.
Bradley
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rueb, Duane
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 10:37 AM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Motor mounting
Bradley:
I would suggest you ask the current owner of KITFOX, which is John and Debra McBean. They are the best source of knowledge of the various models of Kitfoxes, and have many parts and supplies on hand. They also have the benefit of a large body of experience with the airplanes and the builders, and if someone else would need to be brought into the discussion to help, they do not hesitate to suggest that.
When I ‘Google’ “Kitfox aircraft” their site is the first one to come up, so you should have no trouble finding them.
Good luck with your airplane, it should be more fun than even you might have thought possible.
Duane Rueb
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bradley M Webb
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 6:04 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Motor mounting
Folks,
I am getting ready to mount up my motor (Geo 3 cylinder) and I need to order the tubing. What size tubing should I get? I have the 582 mount for reference, but without cutting into it, I have no idea as to the wall thickness.
Also, does anyone have the thrust line for the Kitfox Model 2? My manual has no reference to it. I know where the 582 sat in relation, but are there hard numbers?
Also, is th4ere any thrust offset? Most are down and to the side. Any idea what it should be?
Thanks,
Bradley
N1836
Middle Georgia
|
Marco Menezes
Model 2 582 N99KX
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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rexjan(at)bigpond.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 5:02 pm Post subject: Motor mounting |
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Hi ! Bradley,
I have a MKIV/582 and think it is great. The Rotax 582 does a great job but yes it is way overpriced and I am ever plagued by the roughness below about 3,000 RPM. I saw one of these 3 cylinder Geo's perform and was really impressed. Unfortunately it wasn't in a Kitfox but it really ran extremely smooth and quiet. It started instantly without fuss and performed well. What we really need is is a lot of these motors in Kitfox's so we have a good information base then I'm sure the idea could take-off and we would all benifit. When my time comes and it's time to do something about the 582 I certainly would look at the Geo if mounts and information was available.
Anyway I wish you luck and hope it all woks out well as I'm sure it will.
Rex Shaw.
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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bmwebb(at)cox.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 4:20 am Post subject: Motor mounting |
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So far it is going really well, albeit slow. I will let you know when it is running. There are reports of vibration issues at certain rpm ranges, but the word is that individuals deviate from design in some cases, and may contribute to this. The 3 cylinder does naturally vibrate at lower rpms due to the 120 degree crank, and adding a huge flywheel (prop) adds to this. But raven and others have adapted well to it, so…
There is a weight penalty to be paid over the 582, but that’s how the two stoke came into being in the first place: power-to-weight ratio. That can’t be beat. But the Geo is not much heavier installed, about 20-30lbs, depending on what you do to it. If you consider the savings with reduced fuel on board, the weight is a wash. And you get comparable power, full altitude capability, smooth as silk operation, and parts a mile away at true retail prices.
Rebuilds are cheap, about $500, and it’s super simple to work on. There are cams, turbos, MPFI, electronic ignitions, all off-the-shelf stuff. It’s a good choice to replace the cantankerous 582. Maybe not the 912, but even there, the price is much cheaper to own and operate. The 1.3L four cylinder, with MPFI and turbo, would run all over the 912S/914, and be a little cheaper to install, and weigh only pounds more. Add an in-flight adjustable prop, and you’d have a real winner. The Lycoming O-200/O-240 really won’t compete, in both weight and power. That comes from a Lycoming fan, BTW.
Motor mounts are not hard, but you have to consider all the variables. I’ve just never done it before, and it is a bit daunting to consider the implications IF you get it wrong. Down here in NoWhere’s-ville, it’s also hard to get a decent welder who knows what he’s doing. That’s been most of my hold-up: finding good, competent help.
I’d be glad to demo it (when its complete) and contribute what little I know, if anyone has questions.
Bradley
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rex Shaw
Sent: Sunday, July 09, 2006 1:32 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Motor mounting
Hi ! Bradley,
I have a MKIV/582 and think it is great. The Rotax 582 does a great job but yes it is way overpriced and I am ever plagued by the roughness below about 3,000 RPM. I saw one of these 3 cylinder Geo's perform and was really impressed. Unfortunately it wasn't in a Kitfox but it really ran extremely smooth and quiet. It started instantly without fuss and performed well. What we really need is is a lot of these motors in Kitfox's so we have a good information base then I'm sure the idea could take-off and we would all benifit. When my time comes and it's time to do something about the 582 I certainly would look at the Geo if mounts and information was available.
Anyway I wish you luck and hope it all woks out well as I'm sure it will.
Rex Shaw.
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
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dave(at)cfisher.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 4:37 am Post subject: Motor mounting |
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Bradley,
It is nice to see your progress on the Geo install. I will be looking forward to see the numbers when all said and done.
I know a Instructor that use to have a geo in his Zenith 701 and it lacked power he claimed. He now uses a 912 81 hp. and quite happy.
I have not tried my self a Geo in a Kitfox so I can only go by gut feel and the 582 will outperform the geo performance wise but the Geo I think would out live the 582 and use less fuel. If you are on wheels only and don't fly out of 500' strips then the Geo will most likely work well. But on Floats I doubt it would be very good off the water.
What prop speed will you end up with and what prop will you use ?
Dave
[quote] ---
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bmwebb(at)cox.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 7:18 am Post subject: Motor mounting |
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Actually, the thrust numbers out there indicate the Geo 1.0L is pulling nearly as strong as the 582 with a good prop. But, what really helps is the flat torque curve. The Geo actually out-performs the 582 at anything less than 75 percent power. In fact, at 5 percent, the Geo is almost double the torque. Basically, this means you don’t have to run full-out in cruise to get more from the motor.
And no comparison at 2gph vs. 4gph. Even turbo’d, the 1.0L is 2.5gph.
Also remember that the Geo 60hp figure is SAE net (mandated by federal law for autos), and the Rotax is SAE gross hp. They’re actually very similar.
Add a small turbo and hi rpm cam ($600), and then you’re in 912 territory. Use the 1.3L with turbo, and then your in (and probably over) 914 territory. All for far less than $10K, and that’s a pre-built, bolt-on setup. Do it yourself, and it’s more like $5-$7K.
I had several criteria in looking for 582 replacements. Things like air-cooling, same weight, fit in the round cowling, and reliability. Performance was a distant 5th. But I got that too. Obviously, air cooling was out, and the V-dub is no better than the Rotax, reliability-wise. The 3 cylinder with Raven belt drive is the same length as the 582, and I’m going to two 6 gallon tanks, instead of one 6 and one 13.5. 6 gallons of mogas is 42lbs, so it weighs the same. With TBI, no choke, no cold/hot start issues, and OBD checks for faults. Same as a car.
Of all the people I’ve talked to, not a single one has had a failure of the motor. No crank breaks, not even leaks. Oh yeah, the one guy last week who bolted up a turbo with no waste gate and blew the head off, but that requires no explanation. The base motor is Suzuki, and it’s really strong on the bottom end. The redrive is off the transmission side, and the thrust bearings are stout. There are a ton of these on open-air trikes, but very few on Kitfox/Avids.
I think it is a terrific alternative to the 582.
I’m using the IVO 66 inch three blade. I’ll do thrust tests to see if I get comparable numbers, but the IVO is easy and popular.
BTW, the attached pic is of a Kitfox with turbo Geo 1.0L. Don’t drool on the picture, please…
Bradley
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave
Sent: Sunday, July 09, 2006 8:37 AM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Motor mounting
Bradley,
It is nice to see your progress on the Geo install. I will be looking forward to see the numbers when all said and done.
I know a Instructor that use to have a geo in his Zenith 701 and it lacked power he claimed. He now uses a 912 81 hp. and quite happy.
I have not tried my self a Geo in a Kitfox so I can only go by gut feel and the 582 will outperform the geo performance wise but the Geo I think would out live the 582 and use less fuel. If you are on wheels only and don't fly out of 500' strips then the Geo will most likely work well. But on Floats I doubt it would be very good off the water.
What prop speed will you end up with and what prop will you use ?
Dave
[quote]
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