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Rotax 532 a Boat Anchor
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MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:15 am Post subject: Rotax 532 a Boat Anchor

Bradley sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  The guy that wrote that about the Turbo 'fox is a blithering idiot...


	


Can we have a break from the belligerent attitude, Bradley?  You've 

made your opinion on Rotax 2 strokes abundantly clear yet you now 

feel the need to resort to personal attacks.  It should be obvious by 

now that not everyone shares your opinion--live with it.



We know the Geo engine is the finest piece of engineering in the 

history of mankind.  We know that it produces more power than any 

other engine and probably burbs up extra fuel in the process.  We 

know that if we go to the source of a product we'll always get an 

unbiased view of that product's pros and cons.  We even know that 

there is no controversy at all regarding an engine's history in cars 

as an indicator of how well it will perform in airplanes.  We get it, 

OK?



Can we give it a rest?



Mike G.

N728KF



Do not archive.

bmwebb(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 4:00 pm Post subject: Rotax 532 a Boat Anchor

If an opinion based on actual experience, research, and education is LESS

important to you than a guy giving an UNEDUCATED and PATENTLY WRONG review

of a product he has never actually touched (and from only looking at a

picture, no less), then I invite you to place me on your email snub list. Go

for it. I will not stop calling it as I see it.



My 582 failed on me. I gave it an honest shot, even though I was aware of

the potential for problems. IT FAILED! I would be glad to provide the

pictures of how it failed. There was nothing anyone could have done to

prevent it. A professional NDI technician said the only way for it to fail

the way it did, was a manufacturing defect.



Saying a 582 has "excellent durability" is like a car salesman saying "Trust

me". Do you really believe that? I guess it could - IF you're rich enough to

buy new cranks and jugs at every annual. But that wouldn't be enough. Mine

ran great. And at 50 hours, it ate itself. With me in it. On takeoff.

Through no fault of mine.



How's that for "excellent durability"?

Bradley



P.S. I make no pretenses that the GEO is perfect. But I did my research, and

found it a suitable alternative, with distinct advantages. I would be glad

to share the FACTS on that, but you've made it clear that you won't listen.



--

dosmythe(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 4:22 pm Post subject: Rotax 532 a Boat Anchor

Got my vote. (I'll hate myself for sending this but sometimes, you gotta do 

what you gotta do)



Do Not Archive



---

dave(at)cfisher.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 5:52 pm Post subject: Rotax 532 a Boat Anchor

Bradley,



Thanks for the update on the 582 failure.



Can you helps us out on anything ?

Whgat kind of oil wer you using ?

Was there a cold seizure or overheating going on?

How many hours   -  TT and since Major

  - who did major and what was replaced.



What part failed ?

Do you have pictures ?

what Rotax shop did the NDT testing to evaluate this incident ?



I realize that some get sour over certain topics but hey we all here to help 

each other learn from the problems of others.

Best regards,

Dave

---

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 6:03 pm Post subject: Rotax 532 a Boat Anchor

Brad,

gotta chime in here.  One engine failure that most likely was "a 

manufacturing defect", does not a trend make.  I think I'd wager that if I 

wanted to take the time, I could find a Geo engine that failed because of a 

manufacturing defect - most likely many have failed.



I have never flown an airplane with a 582, but flew along side one on two 

cross country flights to Idaho's back country - close to thirty hours each 

time often in very rugged country and several times to the Skystar fly-in - 

close to 6 hours each way and up to altitudes exceeding 10,000 ft.  He 

couldn't match the performance of the others with 912s but had no engine 

issues what-so-ever.  He flew with us also on numerous trips over the 

Sierras as we did our man thing on weekends.  I guess you might say, he had 

a manufacturing perfect.



Frankly, I can't wait until your airplane is flying.  I am almost holding my 

breath waiting for some actial performance numbers.  Yes, you did your 

homework, but you have nothing except others assurances, some theoretical 

numbers and some hope.  I know of no auto conversion - in a Kitfox - that 

has resulted in the expected performance numbers based on the theoritical 

numbers.



I do remember "Turbo Jim" in the early 90's Kitfox list who was some sort of 

guru and talked up his project with great aplomb also.  Then he flew - soon 

disappeared from the list and quietly sold his airplane.



Be careful.  Lots of us here have been around a long time.  We've read a lot 

of posts, listened a lot, actually have flown a lot, we've learned a lot and 

have pretty good memories.



Frankly, I wouldn't care if you were planning on flying behind a B&S, I 

don't have to live with your choices, but if it means anything, and I 

suppose to you it doesn't, you're about to lose me too.



Lowell

---

bmwebb(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 6:42 pm Post subject: Rotax 532 a Boat Anchor

Glad to provide my info...



Remember that the motor ran fine. There was no seizure involved. On this

takeoff, It didn't reach full rpm, maybe 5400 or so. By the time I realized

what was wrong, the speed was high enough to rotate. My pilot instinct was

to deal with the flying first, engine issue second. I made a very short

pattern over an open field, reduced throttle as much as I dared, and came in

to land. On the crosswind, the metal rubbing was burning oil driped on the

case, and I thought I had a fire. There was, oddly enough, a bit of smoke in

the cockpit, but I guessed it was exhaust, so I first thought the muffler

broke away. Not so. I discovered the problem after removing the motor the

next day.



This motor had 430 hours on it, ~120 after rebuild. I flew 50 of those 120.

I do not know who did it, but it ran ok. It vibrated tremendously, but I

figured that was part of it, after asking around. I used the recommended

Pennzoil oil, and after removal, the piston skirts looked fine. I did not

want to disassemble it, as I don't think the problem migrated up to the

crankcase.



The failure was the starter gear at the back of the motor. I simply came

apart, and started grinding the metal off of the inner case. It caught at

the bottom, and broke out a piece about 4 inches by 3 inches. The crack

started at the gear teeth, and moved to the center. Curiously, it was in

between the mounting holes. I could not understand how it didn't fail at the

holes, as this is the natural stress riser. I think the failure occur from

the way the teeth were cut, or maybe damaged at some point in its life. The

gear on the starter showed no sign of malicious contact, but...



The NDT was done at the Air Force base where I work. There was no point in

putting it through the flux machines, as the break was obvious.



Bradley



--

bmwebb(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:29 pm Post subject: Rotax 532 a Boat Anchor

I agree with you. But I've heard so many various Rotax stories, that the

motor scared me even before I flew it. I had intended on going another way

right from the start. I just hoped it would survive long enough to find a

suitable cliff. It didn't.



One guy flew one clear across Australia. That's gutsy.



90 percent of the time, I had no issues, either. But that 10% could have

been deadly. I was lucky, and had the presence of mind to keep flying the

airplane, even though I had no idea what was wrong. It's pretty frightening,

for those that have not been there. This was my second time, the first being

in a certified airplane a few years before.



I've flown the 912 before, and it was ok, from what I remember. I've heard

they're a good engine to own. They're certified, so maybe Rotax dumped the

dollars and sense into that one.



I don't mean to talk up the Geo as THE ANSWER. Not what I meant. But if

others have interest, I'll gladly give up what I know. I've had some

response from curious people looking for an alternative. Believe me, I hope

it works more than you do. It fits my requirements. Some like it, some

don't. Whatever.



If it doesn't, well the search begins again, but I'll sell the airplane

before a Rotax 2-stroke goes back into it.



You're right. I do not have more than a promise and some hope. Did you have

any more than that when you bought your Kitfox? But I'm betting (real $)

it'll fit the bill nicely. I looked long and hard, and asked lots of

questions. Doesn't mean anything until it's done.



Look, I know I pissed some of you off. Ok. But the comments in that article

were total BS and blatant lies, and I called him on it. I called it because

I saw it. That's just the way I am. I can't stand "experts" who will feed BS

if they don't know the facts. If you fault me for that, so be it. 

Bradley



--

bnn(at)nethere.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:46 pm Post subject: Rotax 532 a Boat Anchor

At 07:42 PM 7/13/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  The failure was the starter gear at the back of the motor. I simply came

apart, and started grinding the metal off of the inner case.


	


Bradley,

         Thanks so much for putting this out, and suffering the flack. 

There is a Rotax Service Bulletin or Letter on just this issue. I was going 

to skip it, but now I guess I won't.

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.



Do not archive

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 1:29 am Post subject: Rotax 532 a Boat Anchor

Bradley sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  If an opinion based on actual experience, research, and education is 

LESS important to you than a guy giving an UNEDUCATED and PATENTLY 

WRONG review of a product he has never actually touched...


	


Please read my comments more carefully before SHOUTING.  You didn't 

provide "experience", "research" or "education" Bradley, you called 

someone an idiot.  That's a personal attack that has no place on this 

list.  Name-calling often demonstrates that one has run out of solid 

arguments.



 	  Quote: 	
		  ...I did my research, and found [the Geo] a suitable alternative, 

with distinct advantages. I would be glad to share the FACTS on 

that, but you've made it clear that you won't listen.


	


I have no problem listening to someone's experience and opinions 

(call them "facts" if you will), it's the in-your-face attitude and 

name-calling that I can do without.  Remember the old saw that, "You 

can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar"?  If you want 

others to listen to your experienced, educated, research then you owe 

it to others to listen to their comments as well and to respond in a 

civil manner.



Mike G.

N728KF

dave(at)cfisher.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 2:41 am Post subject: Rotax 532 a Boat Anchor

Bradley,



Thank you for the explanation of events leading up to the incident.



Now am I  reading this correctly ?  The starter drive did not dis-engage?

First indication should have been after applying WOT that 5400 that 

something was not right .

I would only guess that at 5400 instead of the proper 6200 rpm on a 582 that 

you would have only been getting about 45 to 50 hp instead of the 64 hp that 

a 582 is supposed to put out.

25% less power on take off  would be critical at gross in most aircraft.



So the Rotax engine was in fact not the culprit but the denzo starter gear ?

Also I will add that on the rear mounted starters on 582 it is imperative 

that the starter be tightened to allow for a 1mm  gap at starter housing ( 

about .040") as it is rubber mounted with a series of o-rings giving it the 

shock absorption. Too tight and the read housing will fail and cost you over 

300 $ for a new one.  The Starter drive is also near 100$ .



Fortunately your fine piloting skills brought your plane back in one piece.

Another example of why it is important to make sure you are getting full 

power on Takeoff.



Now let me throw in something else.  Rotax Tachs. I recently put in a tiny 

tach as I have heard that they are very accurate and perhaps more so than 

the Rotax tach.  Well Guess what, my tiny tach reads about 600 to 800 rpm 

higher at WOT than does the Rotax tach. Could it be a problem in the gray 

wire coil on the rotax or that Rotax tach  or is the tiny tach accurate.?

Dave



PS -- I do wish you great success on your GEO install and am anxiously 

awaiting to see some performance numbers.

---

Clem Nichols

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 88
Location: Munfordville, Ky

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:35 am Post subject: Rotax 532 a Boat Anchor

This is a very timely posting for me.  Just a couple of days ago after 

flying a Rans S14 I keep at home, I noticed a crack  at the top of the 

housing where the starter motor is mounted at the rear of my grey-head 582. 

Other than obviously replacing this housing, what else do I need to do.  One 

of the other listers mentioned something about a heavier fly wheel, and Guy 

mentions a service bulletin or letter regarding what I assume is the same 

issue.  Any info/recommendations will be appreciated.



Clem Nichols

---

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:49 am Post subject: Rotax 532 a Boat Anchor

Dave,  I can't speak for the tach used on the 582, but the accuracy of the 

Rotax tach for the 912 will vary due to ambient temps.  I have gotten in the 

habit of carrying an optical tach which measures prop RPM.  I made up a 

conversion chart to engine RPM for ease of use.  On the back of the tach I 

put a knob that can be used to key into the adjustment pot.



Lowell

---

morid(at)northland.lib.mi
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:54 am Post subject: Rotax 532 a Boat Anchor

Clem, it's difficult to see up in there without removing the engine and

starter housing.  If it's an old 582, I'd be very eager to at least check it

out.  The replacement wasn't very expensive.

Like I said, check the Rotax owners associating web site for the bulletin.

http://www.rotax-owner.com/index.htm  It  should be in there someplace.

Deke



---

morid(at)northland.lib.mi
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 6:12 am Post subject: Rotax 532 a Boat Anchor

Try http://www.rotax-owner.com/sdocs.htm

SI-04-1990

Deke

---

noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 7:16 am Post subject: Rotax 532 a Boat Anchor

I bought a tiny tach ... No moving parts.  Operates on impulses form the

plug wires.  Also acts as a timer.



Noel



[quote] --

bnn(at)nethere.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 7:30 am Post subject: Rotax 532 a Boat Anchor

At 07:11 AM 7/14/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Try http://www.rotax-owner.com/sdocs.htm

SI-04-1990

Deke


	


Well the Service Instruction dates from September 1990. Do you think an 

engine manufactured in 1991 could have the same defect? (Yes, it's a 

rhetorical question. Sigh.)

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.



Do not archive

morid(at)northland.lib.mi
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 7:55 am Post subject: Rotax 532 a Boat Anchor

I would consider it very suspect until I had a good look at that flywheel.  

Deke



---

dave(at)cfisher.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 8:28 am Post subject: Rotax 532 a Boat Anchor

Noel,  did you notice a differance between the tiny tach and the rotax tach 

?



Dave

---

noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 7:03 pm Post subject: Rotax 532 a Boat Anchor

I installed the tiny tach because I thought there was a problem with the

original Kitfox tach.  (at) 6400 RPM I couldn't get the plane to climb any

better than a couple of hundred feet a minute.  On one take off last year

the plane took off like a rocket ship by the time I looked down at the tach

it was bouncing off 7800 rpm.  According to the power curves the engine

shouldn't be able to turn that fast with the prop installed.  



The first thing I did when I installed the Tiny Tach was to check the

calibration of the regular tach... Boy-O-boy was it off.....  7800 on the

factory tach was only reading 6200 on the tiny tach.  At the other end of

the speedtrum 2000 rpm on the factory tach ( Idle speed for the 582) was

just over 1300 RMP on the tiny tach   no wonder the engine seemed so rough

at the idle.  The last flight I had was .....absolutely thrilling!   Take

offs on the Areocet floats were .... Let me put it this way ... The plane

went from taxi speed right to flight without hardly hitting the step at all.

If some one told me I was doing ten second take offs on floats I wouldn't be

surprised.



As an electronics tech....  I can give you lots of reasons why the Tiny tach

can believed for it's accuracy.  As an avionics tech I can tell you how the

factory tach can misread.. especially with age.

Next to an optical tach the Tiny Tach  seems to be good bang for the buck.

The only thing I would fault it for is some where in the little black box is

a smaller battery.... Someday it will run down.



Noel



[quote] --

Richard Rabbers

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 114
Location: Benton Harbor, MI - USA

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 7:37 pm Post subject: Re: Tiny Tach (was Rotax 532 a Boat Anchor)

 	  Quote: 	
		   Noel: The only thing I would fault it for is some where in the little black box is a smaller battery.... Someday it will run down.

	




I was curious....  website suggests you may not need to worry about changing that battery...  (you may have another model)

---------------------------------

http://www.tinytach.com/tinytach/gasoline.php

Standard Tiny-Tach™ 

Simple hour meter with tachomter. 

RPM to 9,990. 

Option available to reset the hour meter. 

Different models for different engine types. 

Updates every 2 seconds. 

Standard wire length is 6 feet. 

Estimated battery life is 5+ years — not replaceable.

_________________
Richard in SW Michigan
Model 1 / 618 - full-lotus floats (restoration)

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