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jacobsenra(at)hotmail.com
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 Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:59 am Post subject: Europa Oshkosh Accident |
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I have additional information on Cliff & Betty's Oshkosh accident. First is
the NTSB's preliminay report - this can also be found on the NTSB website.
Also the NTSB has spoken with Mike and a pilot we know who was an
eyewitness. Additionally I test flew Cliff's plane for him, knew him well
and knew what kind of pilot he was. My hope is this information will
prevent another accident of this type.
First the NTSB Report:
NTSB Identification: CHI06FA196
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Sunday, July 23, 2006 in Oshkosh, WI
Aircraft: Shaw Europa XS, registration: N229WC
Injuries: 2 Fatal.
This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors.
Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been
completed.
On July 23, 2006, at 0845 central dylight time, a Shaw Europa XS, N229WC,
collided with the runway following a loss of control while on final approach
to runway 27 (6,178 feet by 150 feet, dry asphalt) at the Wittman Regional
Airport (OSH), Oshkosh, Wisconsin. The private pilot and passenger were
fatally injured. The airplane was destroyed. The 14 Code of Federal
Regulations Part 91 personal flight was operating in visual meteorological
conditions without a flight plan. The flight originated from the Portage
Municipal Airport (C47), Portage, Wisconsin, at approximately 0815.
The airplane was landing at OSH for the EAA AirVenture fly-in. Witness
reported seeing the airplane "low and slow" on downwind to runway 27. One
witness, a certified flight instructor, stated the airplane remained slow as
it overshot final approach. The witnesses reported seeing the airplane stall
on final approach. The airplane impacted the runway on the displaced
threshold.
Now information about Cliff's plane.
I test flew the plane for the first time on 6/29/03 - Flight lasted about a
half hour. I did some slow flight to get airspeed readings but did not
fully stall the airplane. I felt that it would drop a wing - so I was very
careful to keep everything centered. About a week later John Hurst was
flying the plane with Cliff to try to iron out an engine problem. They
stalled the plane and it flipped inverted instantly. We added some stall
strips and got it's behavior a bit better - but it was a always a nasty
stalling airplane.
final. I am sure he pulled a hard turn to final while slow. I can also
guess he was a bit cross controlled and the plane stalled. snapped inverted
and went into a spin. I am told the plane impacted nose down and inverted.
I am also told it had spun "a couple of times".
The Europa is a great design however it does have a very powerful and
sensitive elevator (thats why is so fun). Additionally the rudder is
powerful - but must be used correctly. Cross controlling and accelerated
stalling any airplane is a problem, the Europa is even more so than some and
probably easier to do with the powerful controls.
Here is waht the FAA pilots flying handbook says about this:
According to the FAA publication Airplane Flying Handbook, section on
accelerated stalls and cross control stalls, ...Stalls which result from
abrupt maneuvers tend to be more rapid, or severe, than the unaccelerated
stalls, and because they occur at higher-than-normal airspeeds, they may be
unexpected by an inexperienced pilot. Failure to take immediate steps toward
recovery when an accelerated stall occurs may result in a complete loss of
flight control, notably, power-on spins... a cross control stall...is most
apt to occur during a poorly planned and executed base-to-final approach
turn...the airplane often stalls with little warning. The nose may pitch
down, the inside wing may suddenly drop and the airplane may continue to
roll to an inverted position...It is imperative that this type of stall not
occur during an actual approach to a landing since recovery may be
impossible prior to ground contact due to the low altitude...."
Bob Jacobsen
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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jeff(at)rmmm.net
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:02 am Post subject: Europa Oshkosh Accident |
|
|
I have never meet Cliff but have viewed his web site several times
throughout my build. To hear you all speak of him and his wife I can
see I have missed meeting a great couple. To give of ones self and to
help others reach there goals is what the creator intended for all us,
and something I have been reminded to get better at, by Cliffs example.
I have just returned early from camping at Oshkosh. One of my goals was
to meet Cliff and get a chance up close to finally see Wile-E- Coyote.
With the rest of the Europa community I want to express my sincere
condolences to the Shaw family. My sadness for his family followed me
throughout my short stay there and has forced me to give a second
thought to the dangers I would ask of my own wife and family as I would
like them to enjoy my new plane. As a low time 300 + hour pilot at 26
hours into the 40 hour fly off of N128LJ... I am very concerned at the
cross-controlling and stall warning in this message... especially at
different weights! I have so far found the Europa to be the easiest
plane I have ever landed. I have slipped it down a few hundred feet on
final when approaching too high. I have landed it fast with 10 degrees
of flaps, or no flaps, on MQY's 5000 and 8000 ft strips, and full flaps
on a short grass strip. For safety I use 70 to 75 KTS on final and
have had no problem slowing with pitch and closing the throttle close
to the threshold. I have yet to be heavy though and that is my concern.
I believe if someone had stall numbers at different weights on a
tri-gear it may help all of us. If there is anyone out there with test
results on this subject... you have my vote to share them.
It is with the most possible respect for the Shaw family that I say I
hope we can all learn something positive from this otherwise seemingly
senseless tragedy.
Please do not archive.
Jeff
A258 - N128LJ - Flying
On Jul 28, 2006, at 9:55 AM, Bob Jacobsen wrote:
| Quote: |
<jacobsenra(at)hotmail.com>
I have additional information on Cliff & Betty's Oshkosh accident.
First is the NTSB's preliminay report - this can also be found on the
NTSB website.
Also the NTSB has spoken with Mike and a pilot we know who was an
eyewitness. Additionally I test flew Cliff's plane for him, knew him
well and knew what kind of pilot he was. My hope is this information
will prevent another accident of this type.
First the NTSB Report:
NTSB Identification: CHI06FA196
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Sunday, July 23, 2006 in Oshkosh, WI
Aircraft: Shaw Europa XS, registration: N229WC
Injuries: 2 Fatal.
This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain
errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final
report has been completed.
On July 23, 2006, at 0845 central dylight time, a Shaw Europa XS,
N229WC, collided with the runway following a loss of control while on
final approach to runway 27 (6,178 feet by 150 feet, dry asphalt) at
the Wittman Regional Airport (OSH), Oshkosh, Wisconsin. The private
pilot and passenger were fatally injured. The airplane was destroyed.
The 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91 personal flight was
operating in visual meteorological conditions without a flight plan.
The flight originated from the Portage Municipal Airport (C47),
Portage, Wisconsin, at approximately 0815.
The airplane was landing at OSH for the EAA AirVenture fly-in. Witness
reported seeing the airplane "low and slow" on downwind to runway 27.
One witness, a certified flight instructor, stated the airplane
remained slow as it overshot final approach. The witnesses reported
seeing the airplane stall on final approach. The airplane impacted the
runway on the displaced threshold.
Now information about Cliff's plane.
I test flew the plane for the first time on 6/29/03 - Flight lasted
about a half hour. I did some slow flight to get airspeed readings
but did not fully stall the airplane. I felt that it would drop a
wing - so I was very careful to keep everything centered. About a
week later John Hurst was flying the plane with Cliff to try to iron
out an engine problem. They stalled the plane and it flipped inverted
instantly. We added some stall strips and got it's behavior a bit
better - but it was a always a nasty stalling airplane.
final. I am sure he pulled a hard turn to final while slow. I can
also guess he was a bit cross controlled and the plane stalled.
snapped inverted and went into a spin. I am told the plane impacted
nose down and inverted. I am also told it had spun "a couple of
times".
The Europa is a great design however it does have a very powerful and
sensitive elevator (thats why is so fun). Additionally the rudder is
powerful - but must be used correctly. Cross controlling and
accelerated stalling any airplane is a problem, the Europa is even
more so than some and probably easier to do with the powerful
controls.
Here is waht the FAA pilots flying handbook says about this:
According to the FAA publication Airplane Flying Handbook, section on
accelerated stalls and cross control stalls, ...Stalls which result
from abrupt maneuvers tend to be more rapid, or severe, than the
unaccelerated stalls, and because they occur at higher-than-normal
airspeeds, they may be unexpected by an inexperienced pilot. Failure
to take immediate steps toward recovery when an accelerated stall
occurs may result in a complete loss of flight control, notably,
power-on spins... a cross control stall...is most apt to occur during
a poorly planned and executed base-to-final approach turn...the
airplane often stalls with little warning. The nose may pitch down,
the inside wing may suddenly drop and the airplane may continue to
roll to an inverted position...It is imperative that this type of
stall not occur during an actual approach to a landing since recovery
may be impossible prior to ground contact due to the low altitude...."
Bob Jacobsen
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
http://wiki.matronics.com
|
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
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| Back to top |
|
|
asarangan(at)YAHOO.COM
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:14 pm Post subject: Europa Oshkosh Accident |
|
|
What's confusing to me is the witness statement that he was "low and
slow on downwind". Getting slow and low on final is somewhat
understandable, esepcially if he was attempting to do a short field
landing, but getting low on downwind seems a bit strange. Is it
possible that his static port was malfunctioning, giving an incorrect
altitude and airspeed?
--- Bob Jacobsen <jacobsenra(at)hotmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
<jacobsenra(at)hotmail.com>
I have additional information on Cliff & Betty's Oshkosh accident.
First is
the NTSB's preliminay report - this can also be found on the NTSB
website.
Also the NTSB has spoken with Mike and a pilot we know who was an
eyewitness. Additionally I test flew Cliff's plane for him, knew him
well
and knew what kind of pilot he was. My hope is this information will
prevent another accident of this type.
First the NTSB Report:
NTSB Identification: CHI06FA196
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Sunday, July 23, 2006 in Oshkosh, WI
Aircraft: Shaw Europa XS, registration: N229WC
Injuries: 2 Fatal.
This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain
errors.
Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has
been
completed.
On July 23, 2006, at 0845 central dylight time, a Shaw Europa XS,
N229WC,
collided with the runway following a loss of control while on final
approach
to runway 27 (6,178 feet by 150 feet, dry asphalt) at the Wittman
Regional
Airport (OSH), Oshkosh, Wisconsin. The private pilot and passenger
were
fatally injured. The airplane was destroyed. The 14 Code of Federal
Regulations Part 91 personal flight was operating in visual
meteorological
conditions without a flight plan. The flight originated from the
Portage
Municipal Airport (C47), Portage, Wisconsin, at approximately 0815.
The airplane was landing at OSH for the EAA AirVenture fly-in.
Witness
reported seeing the airplane "low and slow" on downwind to runway 27.
One
witness, a certified flight instructor, stated the airplane remained
slow as
it overshot final approach. The witnesses reported seeing the
airplane stall
on final approach. The airplane impacted the runway on the displaced
threshold.
Now information about Cliff's plane.
I test flew the plane for the first time on 6/29/03 - Flight lasted
about a
half hour. I did some slow flight to get airspeed readings but did
not
fully stall the airplane. I felt that it would drop a wing - so I
was very
careful to keep everything centered. About a week later John Hurst
was
flying the plane with Cliff to try to iron out an engine problem.
They
stalled the plane and it flipped inverted instantly. We added some
stall
strips and got it's behavior a bit better - but it was a always a
nasty
stalling airplane.
final. I am sure he pulled a hard turn to final while slow. I can
also
guess he was a bit cross controlled and the plane stalled. snapped
inverted
and went into a spin. I am told the plane impacted nose down and
inverted.
I am also told it had spun "a couple of times".
The Europa is a great design however it does have a very powerful and
sensitive elevator (thats why is so fun). Additionally the rudder is
powerful - but must be used correctly. Cross controlling and
accelerated
stalling any airplane is a problem, the Europa is even more so than
some and
probably easier to do with the powerful controls.
Here is waht the FAA pilots flying handbook says about this:
According to the FAA publication Airplane Flying Handbook, section on
accelerated stalls and cross control stalls, ...Stalls which result
from
abrupt maneuvers tend to be more rapid, or severe, than the
unaccelerated
stalls, and because they occur at higher-than-normal airspeeds, they
may be
unexpected by an inexperienced pilot. Failure to take immediate steps
toward
recovery when an accelerated stall occurs may result in a complete
loss of
flight control, notably, power-on spins... a cross control stall...is
most
apt to occur during a poorly planned and executed base-to-final
approach
turn...the airplane often stalls with little warning. The nose may
pitch
down, the inside wing may suddenly drop and the airplane may continue
to
roll to an inverted position...It is imperative that this type of
stall not
occur during an actual approach to a landing since recovery may be
impossible prior to ground contact due to the low altitude...."
Bob Jacobsen
|
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jeff(at)rmmm.net
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:22 pm Post subject: Europa Oshkosh Accident |
|
|
I have never meet Cliff but have viewed his web site several times
throughout my build. To hear you all speak of him and his wife I can
see I have missed meeting a great couple. To give of ones self to help
others reach there goals is what the creator intended for all us, and I
have been reminded to get better at it by Cliffs example.
I have just returned early from camping at Oshkosh. One of my goals was
to meet Cliff and get a chance up close to finally see Wile-E- Coyote.
With the rest of the Europa community I want to express my sincere
condolences to the Shaw family. My sadness for his family followed me
throughout my short stay there and has forced me to give a second
thought to the dangers I would ask of my own wife and family as I would
like them to enjoy my new plane. As a low time 300 + hour pilot at 26
into the 40 hour fly off of N128LJ... I am very concerned at the
cross-controlling and stall warning in this message, especially at
different weights. I have so far found the Europa to be the easiest
plane I have ever landed. I have slipped it down a few hundred feet on
final when approaching too high. I have landed it fast with 10 degrees
of flaps, or no flaps, on MQY's 5000 and 8000 ft strips, and full flaps
on a short grass strips. For safety I use 70 to 75 KTS on final and
have had no problem slowing with pitch and closing the throttle close
to the threshold. But I have yet to be heavy and that is my concern.
I believe if someone has stall numbers at different weights on a
tri-gear it may be a good time to post them. If there is anyone out
there with test results on this subject... you have my vote to share
them.
It is with the most possible respect for the Shaw family that I say I
hope we can all learn something positive from this awful tragedy.
Please do not archive.
Jeff
A258 - N128LJ - Flying
On Jul 28, 2006, at 9:55 AM, Bob Jacobsen wrote:
| Quote: |
<jacobsenra(at)hotmail.com>
I have additional information on Cliff & Betty's Oshkosh accident.
First is the NTSB's preliminay report - this can also be found on the
NTSB website.
Also the NTSB has spoken with Mike and a pilot we know who was an
eyewitness. Additionally I test flew Cliff's plane for him, knew him
well and knew what kind of pilot he was. My hope is this information
will prevent another accident of this type.
First the NTSB Report:
NTSB Identification: CHI06FA196
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Sunday, July 23, 2006 in Oshkosh, WI
Aircraft: Shaw Europa XS, registration: N229WC
Injuries: 2 Fatal.
This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain
errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final
report has been completed.
On July 23, 2006, at 0845 central dylight time, a Shaw Europa XS,
N229WC, collided with the runway following a loss of control while on
final approach to runway 27 (6,178 feet by 150 feet, dry asphalt) at
the Wittman Regional Airport (OSH), Oshkosh, Wisconsin. The private
pilot and passenger were fatally injured. The airplane was destroyed.
The 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91 personal flight was
operating in visual meteorological conditions without a flight plan.
The flight originated from the Portage Municipal Airport (C47),
Portage, Wisconsin, at approximately 0815.
The airplane was landing at OSH for the EAA AirVenture fly-in. Witness
reported seeing the airplane "low and slow" on downwind to runway 27.
One witness, a certified flight instructor, stated the airplane
remained slow as it overshot final approach. The witnesses reported
seeing the airplane stall on final approach. The airplane impacted the
runway on the displaced threshold.
Now information about Cliff's plane.
I test flew the plane for the first time on 6/29/03 - Flight lasted
about a half hour. I did some slow flight to get airspeed readings
but did not fully stall the airplane. I felt that it would drop a
wing - so I was very careful to keep everything centered. About a
week later John Hurst was flying the plane with Cliff to try to iron
out an engine problem. They stalled the plane and it flipped inverted
instantly. We added some stall strips and got it's behavior a bit
better - but it was a always a nasty stalling airplane.
final. I am sure he pulled a hard turn to final while slow. I can
also guess he was a bit cross controlled and the plane stalled.
snapped inverted and went into a spin. I am told the plane impacted
nose down and inverted. I am also told it had spun "a couple of
times".
The Europa is a great design however it does have a very powerful and
sensitive elevator (thats why is so fun). Additionally the rudder is
powerful - but must be used correctly. Cross controlling and
accelerated stalling any airplane is a problem, the Europa is even
more so than some and probably easier to do with the powerful
controls.
Here is waht the FAA pilots flying handbook says about this:
According to the FAA publication Airplane Flying Handbook, section on
accelerated stalls and cross control stalls, ...Stalls which result
from abrupt maneuvers tend to be more rapid, or severe, than the
unaccelerated stalls, and because they occur at higher-than-normal
airspeeds, they may be unexpected by an inexperienced pilot. Failure
to take immediate steps toward recovery when an accelerated stall
occurs may result in a complete loss of flight control, notably,
power-on spins... a cross control stall...is most apt to occur during
a poorly planned and executed base-to-final approach turn...the
airplane often stalls with little warning. The nose may pitch down,
the inside wing may suddenly drop and the airplane may continue to
roll to an inverted position...It is imperative that this type of
stall not occur during an actual approach to a landing since recovery
may be impossible prior to ground contact due to the low altitude...."
Bob Jacobsen
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
http://wiki.matronics.com
|
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
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Mark Burton
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 74
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:44 pm Post subject: Airspeed sanity check (was Europa Oshkosh Accident) |
|
|
If you use a GPS (who doesn't?) then it makes sense to compare your airspeed against the GPS when you are downwind in the circuit and also when you have just turned onto final to avoid being fooled by a gross error caused by a failure of the pitot/static/asi system. Obviously, you have to take the (possibly estimated) windspeed into account and the numbers will rarely match up exactly but if the results are wildly different, you can be on your guard.
Mark
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
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