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Deems Davis
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 925
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 Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 9:51 am Post subject: RV-10 Quality @ OSH -w/ appoligies to John Cox |
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I know this was directed to John but let me take a crack at it. My son
and I just returned from OSH. BTW a MIGHTY THANKS to Bob Condrey, Gary
Spectater, and Tim Olsen for organizing RV10 HQ. The highlight of the
trip for me was being able to meet all of the RV-10 builders and to put
names with faces. 3-4 times each day, through the contact with you guys,
I learned something, valuable, that I wouldn't have learned if I hadn't
been there, THANKS again to all who so willingly shared their knowledge
and time.
Re. the quality issue, There is no one or two specific things, that you
can point to, but the quality of the workmanship is easily apparent to
any builder. Seams that don't match, wrinkled metal, pop rivets holding
windows to their frames, surfaces not prepared, sanded smooth/filled
before painting.finishing. Wings skins not 'scarfed' per the plans,
these are just a few that come to mind quickly. When looking at these
planes, they scream that they were put together with speed to completion
as the primary goal, pride of workmanship obviously took a holiday, and
one immediately begins to ask oneself, " If these readily visible
shortcuts were taken, what shortcuts that aren't so apparent were also
taken?" Van makes a GREAT kit, the RV-10 plans are the best and most
complete in the industry, 99.9% of the parts will almost 'put them
selves together (NOT applicable to the fiberglass pieces!!!!!). I'm
confident that any INDIVIDUAL OWNER/BUILDER who takes a modicum of pride
in their work, and who keeps safety in front of timelines can produce
planes with the quality that we saw in Tim's, Vic's and Debby's, and
Mike's examples. All of the foregoing examples showed wide differences
in the individuals preferences and choices, but NONE of them showed any
signs of carelessness. This list is an EXTREMELY valuable source of
information and knowledge regarding anything that you are not certain
of. John Cox has been an outspoken proponent on this site about NOT
taking shortcuts, and he is quick to call attention to anything that
infringes on Safety. Seeing these quality completions (at) OSH inspired me
to come back home 'stay the course' and do the best job I'm capable of.
THANKS again to those of you who have led the way and established the
standard!
Deems Davis # 406
Fuse/Finishing/Panel
http://deemsrv10.com/
Simon Barber wrote:
| Quote: |
hi john,
I too would like to know what to avoid ending up doing - since I am a
first time builder. Would very much like to have a few pointers to "if
it comes out like this you're doing it wrong".
Simon
Jeff Carpenter wrote:
> Ok John... without naming names... what specifically are you seeing
> that constitutes a low "quality build"... as I certainly don't want
> to wind up on that list when I take to the sky.
>
> Jeff Carpenter
> 40304
> Finishing Fuel Tanks
> On Jul 29, 2006, at 6:00 AM, John W. Cox wrote:
>
>> Bob send me the attendance list from last night and the tab. My
>> Paypal account is in good shape and I clearly missed the mark. With
>> the lowered expectations in quality builds this year, I am actually
>> glad not to have seen my 20 RV-10s. Would rather have the quality,
>> safer aircraft and smarter builders.
>>
>> Rushing to class.
>>
>> John
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
http://wiki.matronics.com
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jjessen
Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 285
Location: OR
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| Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:58 am Post subject: RV-10 Quality @ OSH -w/ appoligies to John Cox |
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Deems, thanks for this.
I wrote John off line urging him to make a similar statement. Now, I don't
think he really needs to. However, not being there, and often not
understanding what lies behind a statement about this or that, is often
extremely frustrating. We do have Tim's site and mine and yours and others
to check before moving onto another section, another page, but here's what
I'd really like to see happen so that as a building community we can benefit
enormously from the expertise out there:
When someone with technical knowledge makes a statement about a technique or
procedure that is not in the plans (or even if it is in the plans and it is
IMPORTANT for people to pay attention to) that they believe would be best to
consider doing, because of their knowledge and expert experience of such
things, for it would help not only the build quality, but especially the
safety and integrity of the planes (a simple example would be fabricating
and using a doubler for the antennae, which was pointed out by John), then
these people need not only to raise the topic, but explain and even
demonstrate what they are talking about through a series of still pictures.
I would be more than happy to include these (and in fact have begun to do
so) in a special section of my web site, or simply make reference to Tim's
and have them all put there. In my opinion, there needs to be a list of
these aircraft building pearls of wisdom, each properly documented. I know.
I know. These are experimental planes and thus anyone can do, more or less,
what they want. And a ton of information resides in the archives. And what
is good for the airlines may not be good for or needed for GA. But...we are
a community of individuals who care for each other's safety, not just
quality, and each time something comes up that should be a building "must
do" let's get it out in the open for all and documented.
I'm probably overstating things. I just want everyone to be very well
informed. Choices of engines, panel goodies, paint, etc., are up to the
builder. But the airframe and how to "do it right" should be available to
all.
John J
Tailcone
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Tim(at)MyRV10.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 5:30 pm Post subject: RV-10 Quality @ OSH -w/ appoligies to John Cox |
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Deems says it well here. There is no ONE thing. There's such a
variety. Most of the time, we're not talking cosmetics, although
doing a really shoddy job cosmetically never wins you points.
Most of the things that get pointed out negatively are things
where someone obviously was in a hurry, or really showed a lack
of care...not just the occasional newbie bucking bar ding. If a
builder just builds to plans, and uses all the acceptable
practices for things, they have nothing to fear. People like
Ray Doerr show up without any paint at all, rivet lines scuffed
and ready. Nobody criticizes him because his workmanship is
good, and he took care on his project. The care thing really
shows on fiberglass parts, when you obviously don't sand things
well, or don't trim wingtips and make them match the trailing
edge. On aluminum, it'll be things like not deburring things,
consistently denting your skins along rivet lines, or not
seating rivets by not dimpling skins enough...sometimes cosmetic,
and sometimes structural issues. For electrical, at OSH 2005
for example, I saw an entire bundle of wires snaked down through
the forward slot in the tunnel cover, laying snugly against
the sharp metal edge of the tunnel cover....which by other
indications on the airframe was probably not deburred much
or at all. It's a recipe for disaster, and doesn't follow
any acceptable practice. As Deems says, it's stuff that any
builder who thinks about, and puts care into building, would
notice.
It should also be noted that at this show, OSH 2006, I was
able to see workmanship of such a level that I do not know
if I could live up to it...even on my 2nd or 3rd build of
an RV-10. Debbie Dewey's RV-10 is absolutely about as perfect
as you can get. In almost every spot of her airframe, when
you pay attention to the minute details, you see perfection in
those details. Engine baffling quality, trailing edge smoothness
where you can't even see that it's 2 skins, feathering fiberglass
to aluminum transitions, fit and finish of fairings...things like
that. Professional paint jobs, and professional interiors are
just icing on the cake, not the things that are judged by builders...
nor weighed heavily by contest judges. But in her case, the
underlying airplane was built to very exceptionally high standards...
standards to which most of us will dream, but not achieve. Not
that this makes ours bad.
I had the experience of having my airplane judged this year.
It was very interesting. Lots of judges saw it, but I did
not get any awards. Would have been cool, but there are reasons
I did not get them. My airplane has been described as having
great workmanship, being very pretty, having nice paint, and
all sorts of things. But it truly isn't an award winning
showplane...and if you remember my comments in past posts during
the build, that's not what I built it for. To toot my own
horn for a second, which I rarely like to do actually, I think
of my airplane more as an example of good workmanship that is
of a level that any builder should be able to accomplish without
going above and beyond by too far. I would think that any of
you could build one as nice, and many of you will build them
nicer. I learned though, that to be a showplane, there is a
level of detail that gets so precise that I think it would be a
stretch for a first-time builder in most cases to win an
award. One of the judges walked around with me and showed me
the minor things that cause people to drop out. Very minor...
things like a flap attach bolt put in from the wrong direction.
But in the above discussion, we're not talking about the
things that keep a person from winning an award....those things
may not BE obvious to the average builder...they weren't to me,
that's for sure. The things we're talking about are things
that the average builder could see when they walk up to the
plane. So take some comfort in the fact that if you're careful,
you probably don't have much to worry about on the RV-10 to
end up with a very airworthy plane. I am very happy with
what I have, and how it flies, and it's built to a standard
that I'm comfortable with. It seems to look nice, too. Hopefully
you all can use what you learn on this forum to make yours
come out even nicer.
Example Tip: When you set flush rivets, drag a fingernail over
them, and if you snag it on the edge of that rivet, it's probably
not set deep enough. A few of these are fine, but don't
let it be a habit....dimple better. If you can't dimple it
any better, take that hole and very lightly run a countersink
tool around a couple times to help the rivet lay flush...you
want the whole rivet angle making good contact.
Build on, and just work to high standards.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Deems Davis wrote:
| Quote: |
I know this was directed to John but let me take a crack at it. My son
and I just returned from OSH. BTW a MIGHTY THANKS to Bob Condrey, Gary
Spectater, and Tim Olsen for organizing RV10 HQ. The highlight of the
trip for me was being able to meet all of the RV-10 builders and to put
names with faces. 3-4 times each day, through the contact with you guys,
I learned something, valuable, that I wouldn't have learned if I hadn't
been there, THANKS again to all who so willingly shared their knowledge
and time.
Re. the quality issue, There is no one or two specific things, that you
can point to, but the quality of the workmanship is easily apparent to
any builder. Seams that don't match, wrinkled metal, pop rivets holding
windows to their frames, surfaces not prepared, sanded smooth/filled
before painting.finishing. Wings skins not 'scarfed' per the plans,
these are just a few that come to mind quickly. When looking at these
planes, they scream that they were put together with speed to completion
as the primary goal, pride of workmanship obviously took a holiday, and
one immediately begins to ask oneself, " If these readily visible
shortcuts were taken, what shortcuts that aren't so apparent were also
taken?" Van makes a GREAT kit, the RV-10 plans are the best and most
complete in the industry, 99.9% of the parts will almost 'put them
selves together (NOT applicable to the fiberglass pieces!!!!!). I'm
confident that any INDIVIDUAL OWNER/BUILDER who takes a modicum of pride
in their work, and who keeps safety in front of timelines can produce
planes with the quality that we saw in Tim's, Vic's and Debby's, and
Mike's examples. All of the foregoing examples showed wide differences
in the individuals preferences and choices, but NONE of them showed any
signs of carelessness. This list is an EXTREMELY valuable source of
information and knowledge regarding anything that you are not certain
of. John Cox has been an outspoken proponent on this site about NOT
taking shortcuts, and he is quick to call attention to anything that
infringes on Safety. Seeing these quality completions (at) OSH inspired me
to come back home 'stay the course' and do the best job I'm capable of.
THANKS again to those of you who have led the way and established the
standard!
Deems Davis # 406
Fuse/Finishing/Panel
http://deemsrv10.com/
Simon Barber wrote:
>
>
> hi john,
>
> I too would like to know what to avoid ending up doing - since I am a
> first time builder. Would very much like to have a few pointers to "if
> it comes out like this you're doing it wrong".
>
> Simon
> Jeff Carpenter wrote:
>
>> Ok John... without naming names... what specifically are you seeing
>> that constitutes a low "quality build"... as I certainly don't want
>> to wind up on that list when I take to the sky.
>>
>> Jeff Carpenter
>> 40304
>> Finishing Fuel Tanks
>>
>>
>> On Jul 29, 2006, at 6:00 AM, John W. Cox wrote:
>>
>>> Bob send me the attendance list from last night and the tab. My
>>> Paypal account is in good shape and I clearly missed the mark. With
>>> the lowered expectations in quality builds this year, I am actually
>>> glad not to have seen my 20 RV-10s. Would rather have the quality,
>>> safer aircraft and smarter builders.
>>>
>>> Rushing to class.
>>>
>>> John
>>
>>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> http://wiki.matronics.com
>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
http://wiki.matronics.com
|
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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toaster73(at)earthlink.ne
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 6:56 pm Post subject: RV-10 Quality @ OSH -w/ appoligies to John Cox |
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If you want some documented guidance on flush rivet requirements check this
link out.
http://home.flash.net/~gila/rivet_spec/rivet_a.htm#TABLE%20IV
Chris Lucas
#40072 (section 28-9)
---
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 7:27 am Post subject: RV-10 Quality @ OSH -w/ appoligies to John Cox |
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Let me just put some pictures to these statements. Some items are
bubble wrap for a heat shield, beat to hell skins, some finish work that
would make an amateur blush, rusted door hinges, paint bubbling from
rust on steps, screws falling out and fairings improperly fitted and
falling off. Of course pictures don't show the detail but you get the
idea.
Michael
Do not archive
--
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rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
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rene(at)felker.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:26 am Post subject: RV-10 Quality @ OSH -w/ appoligies to John Cox |
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I waited on the bottom wing skins and don't think it helped much. I have
conduit in the wings for wire. I found riveting the bottom skin a real
pain........if I did it again, I would not put it off. Get the wings done
and out of the way...
Rene' Felker
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