Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - -10's for sale in quantity, available today

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

-10's for sale in quantity, available today
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4 Next

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> RV10-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

Tim(at)MyRV10.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 5:43 am Post subject: -10's for sale in quantity, available today

One thing that took a lot of people's "campfire" discussion time

up at OSH this year is the amazing amount of -10's at OSH that were

for sale.  Out of 11, we know of at least 4 of them that were for

sale.  We also know that of the remaining ones, at least a couple

were built more on a "build-to-order" basis than built a

"build-myself-a-plane for recreation" basis.   So probably 50% of the

planes there were seemingly built with the idea of selling them

upon completion.  There was also a rumor that in one case, claims

were made that, and I apologize if the number is wrong as it's

secondhand info, the builder was on his 10th RV-10 already and

could build one in 3 months.   You can see why, in this age of

demand for performance 4-seaters, the RV-10 would be an attractive

kit for such an operation.  The problem is, it just isn't LEGAL.



While the remainder of the RV-10 community builds along trying

to do what I did, and build my dream plane, there is considerable

worry that these commercial builds are going to bring down some

increased regulation that messes it up for everyone.  What

surprised me though was the things I heard this week that point

out that it is indeed a hot issue for the feds, and that the

RV-10 in particular is now watching them more closely.  I just post

this as general discussion info...I don't believe it will have

any effect on anything, as the financial motivation is too great

to stop the practice that could ultimately destroy our ability

to have the 51% rule that is allowing us to enjoy a most fantastic

hobby.



Here are some clippings of things that I heard this week, some

first hand, some second:



On multiple days, you could open the Airventure daily paper and

read things about the discussions by Marion Blakely regarding

their rising concern about this problem.  They apparently know

well that there is a problem, and have formed a task force

to figure out what to do....they just don't know what to do

at present.  The surprising thing was that I could read and

hear about related comments from the FAA and Blakely on

more than one day, so it definitely held some of their attention.



I also heard that the task force is close enough to home for

us that one of the members of the task force is even a man

for who a kit company, actually my favorite kit company, is

named after.  Yes, he's actually part of the task force.  It

would make sense, since some of his best kits are being used

in these operations.  His participation in the task force

is something that I think is very good.



Then I show up home from OSH yesterday and loan my hanger out

to a guy who wants to do some paperwork with his DAR regarding

his RV-9A.  The DAR looks at my -10 and he loves the plane.

As he talks about it though, it's clear one one thing.  He asks

questions to determine if I was the actual builder and it's

clear that he has heard that these planes may be one to ask

those questions about.  He goes on to tell me that the FAA is

getting very concerned about build-to-order kits, and that he's

gone to 2 meetings in the past year at the FAA that revolving

around the problem...and also mentions that they're trying to

come up with a good way to firmly deal with it.



So anyway, it occupied some of the RV-10 builders time talking

about this kind of thing, and the general feeling was not good

about this.  The FAA has allowed builders for over 50 years

to build their own aircraft and fly it, and allowed us the

freedom to fly our often superior products to some of the

certified fleet with almost no restriction.  It's been a very

good situation, and since build-it-for-myself builders are

still in a majority, it's something we greatly treasure.



I'd encourage anyone who's thinking of building these planes

to order or building them to sell, to rethink the plan....or

at least do us a favor and build them outside the country for

sale and certification outside the country.  We have enough

regulation turning against us these days, but there are some

people who will be very unhappy if it makes their personal

building experience rougher.



One thing I'd encourage you all to do in your build is NOT to

skimp on photos, and documentation, and do as has been recommended

many times over....get photos of YOU doing the work, with YOUR

hand on the tool, and the aluminum dust on YOUR hands.  Try

to do this every couple of building sessions, and make sure you

record the tasks completed in that section.  On my spreadsheet,

I even recorded the names of any helper who happended to help

with anything, and the number of hours to the nearest tenth

that they helped.  It may be that documentation of your build

is very key in you being able to actually get it certified

in the experimental category in the future.  Do a good builders

log...which was actually initially my main motivation for my

website.  You want to prove you did the build, and publicize

your enjoyment of the future plane you can't wait to fly.

Keep pounding rivets - Flying them is a real hoot!





-- 

Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

dav1111(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 6:17 am Post subject: -10's for sale in quantity, available today

I agree with Tim whole heartedly.  My builder's log runs to over a thousand 

pictures (all on computer), along with my Kitlog Pro cost sheet.  I had my 

laptop computer at the hanger for the DAR to look at in case he had 

questions, along with all of my builders plans.  When I received my first 

set of plans I made a full size copy so I could have a work set at the 

hanger and have an original at the office that had not been marked up.



My plans at the hanger are in four different notebooks and are well worn and 

marked up with notes and check marks.



I figured if the DAR had any questions about whether or not I built N710RV 

he would be able to see not only photos but also working plans.  He never 

asked or questioned me about it at all.



I was real straight forward with the DAR explaining to him at the start who 

I had do the engine overhaul and who build my panel.



The DAR found the following items that needed to be corrected:



1.    Replace 4 rivets (slightly bent over);



2.    Change out two bolts on the door struts so they show a couple more 

threads;



3.    Taking off a washer on three bolts so more threads show;



4.    Putting some RTV around one bushing in the wing where the heated pitot 

line goes through a rib (I guess I drilled the hole a little two big and the 

bushing had snapped out or the bushing side clamps were bad).



5.    And I had one screw loose, pitot mounting bracket the DAR claimed, but 

everyone that knows me has always claimed I had a screw loose, even before I 

started my RV-10 building project.



Maybe the DAR didn't think he needed to question me much about the build 

based on the squawks he found.



Russ Daves

Lubbock, Texas

N710RV #40044 - Flying (every day so far)



---

LIKE2LOOP(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 7:35 am Post subject: -10's for sale in quantity, available today

In a message dated 7/30/2006 10:19:53 AM Eastern Standard Time,  dav1111(at)cox.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  2.       Change out two bolts on the door struts so they show a couple more    

threads;

3.    Taking off a washer on three bolts so more    threads show;

	


 

    More info please.    My A & P  taught me that he looks for 2 full threads beyond the fastener.   Is  that what your DAR was looking for?   If not, please tell us what the  criteria was for your inspection....  Thanks!

  

 Do NOT Archive

  

 Steve  

Stephen  Blank              #40499 

766 SE River Lane

Port St. Lucie, FL 34983



772-475-5556  cell - evenings and weekends

jim(at)CombsFive.Com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 7:53 am Post subject: -10's for sale in quantity, available today

A couple of possible solutions come to mind:



(1) The FAA could limit the availability of N numbers to one number every two years (or some other resonable time) and require the person applying for the N-number to be the 51% builder.



(2) Not allow the N-Number to be transferred for some period of time (18 months?) after the initial assignment. The exception being if the builder / owner of the N-number has deceased, this rule would not apply.



Do not archive.



Jim Combs

N312F

#40192 - Fuselage  

============================================================

n8vim(at)arrl.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 8:11 am Post subject: -10's for sale in quantity, available today

This may just be too simple...

     Why not just Enforce the 51% rule?  And, like the IRS, you can be penalized even after the fact...

 

 I know, too simple for Government... Have to have committees, investigations, poll groups, more committees, then decide to decide later...   more committees.....

 

 -Jim 40384

 do not archive

 

 jim(at)CombsFive.Com (jim(at)CombsFive.Com) wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		      	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV10-List message posted by: <jim(at)combsfive.com> (jim(at)combsfive.com)



A couple of possible solutions come to mind:



(1) The FAA could limit the availability of N numbers to one number every two years (or some other resonable time) and require the person applying for the N-number to be the 51% builder.



(2) Not allow the N-Number to be transferred for some period of time (18 months?) after the initial assignment. The exception being if the builder / owner of the N-number has deceased, this rule would not apply.



Do not archive.



Jim Combs

N312F

#40192 - Fuselage  

============================================================

av8or(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 8:55 am Post subject: -10's for sale in quantity, available today

Amen.....

  

 John

 #40262

  

 do not archive

 [quote]   ---

dav1111(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 10:35 am Post subject: -10's for sale in quantity, available today

I think my DAR wanted to see a minimum of two threads but  preferred three.  In redoing the bolts I didn't have any significant  disagreement with my DAR.  Actually I found a couple of bolts that I had  missed fully tightening because my wife was working behind me putting in the  headliner fabric and I missed them until after I went back through the airplane  with a fine tooth comb after my DAR signed off the inspection.

  

 After each flight I am also going back and looking for any  possible problem which might arise as well.

  

 Russ Daves

 [quote]   ---

dmaib@me.com

Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 455
Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:15 am Post subject: -10's for sale in quantity, available today

On Jul 30, 2006, at 11:54 AM, John Lenhardt wrote:

--> RV10-List message posted by: James Hein This may just be too simple...

    Why not just Enforce the 51% rule?  And, like the IRS, you can be penalized even after the fact...

Of course, that would require some kind of "51% Police" bureaucracy to enforce the rule. The FAA does not have the resources to do it. Let's be careful what we wish for.	



David Maib

#40559

tailcone

_________________
David Maib
RV-10 #40559
New Smyrna Beach, FL

av8or(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:58 am Post subject: -10's for sale in quantity, available today

Now you've hit the nail on the head.....more  rules and regulations won't make any difference either if they can't be  enforced.  I guess it looks good if they "do something" to address the  problem.  Getting of my soapbox now.... 

  

 John

 #40262

  

 Do Not Archive

 [quote]   ---

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 12:25 pm Post subject: -10's for sale in quantity, available today

There already is a rule..51%. If you can't prove it, no amateur built 

certificate is supposed to be issued. The FAA has come down on one or 

two operations that were building turbine type planes with little 

owner/builder involvement. Having $150K invested in something the FAA 

refuses to certify/register should be enforcement enough to discourage 

pro-built for hire machines.



jim(at)CombsFive.Com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 A couple of possible solutions come to mind:

 

 (1) The FAA could limit the availability of N numbers to one number every two years (or some other resonable time) and require the person applying for the N-number to be the 51% builder.

 

 (2) Not allow the N-Number to be transferred for some period of time (18 months?) after the initial assignment. The exception being if the builder / owner of the N-number has deceased, this rule would not apply.

 

 Do not archive.

 

 Jim Combs

 N312F

 #40192 - Fuselage  

 ============================================================

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

pascalreid(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 3:01 pm Post subject: -10's for sale in quantity, available today

In support of your comments, May 2006 SportAviation, page 64, covers this as 

well. The FAA,  as of 2005, already requires a FAA instpector, not DAR, to 

be the only one that can issue a certificate based on judgement for complex 

aircraft (like the Lancair IV) I agree with Tim that if commercial assist 

continues, us new(er) builders will suffer trying to do it legally and many 

may just not pursue this (what is a dream) due to the hassle and backlog to 

get a plane inspected by the FAA.

Hopefully no one will buy a ready made RV-10 plane and the market will show 

that if one is not in it for self pleasure than it's not worth the effort to 

build it for the money. Alas the RV-10, like the Lancairs, have much to 

offer a potential buyers, and at less of a price than a Cirrus, so that may 

not be realistic!

Pascal

---

wayne.e(at)grandecom.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 2:36 am Post subject: -10's for sale in quantity, available today

One way that the FAA might possible be able to curb  the "build to sell" crowd would be to put a time line on when a newly built  plane could be sold or owners changed. As an example lets say the plane couldn't  be sold to a new owner until 6 or 12 months after the hours are flown off or  until it has so many hours on it like 300 hours. Then allow a waiver to this in  the case of certain conditions such as death of the builder or maybe hell  freezing over, something along those lines.

  

 Wayne Edgerton #40336

  

 Engine work

  

 do not archive

av8or(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:44 am Post subject: -10's for sale in quantity, available today

But again, how will that be enforced?  We  already have the laws, let's find a way to enforce them.

  

 John

 #40262

  

 Do Not Archive

 [quote]   ---

james.k.hovis(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:25 am Post subject: -10's for sale in quantity, available today

   I have to ask a question about the "build to order" aircraft: Who's flying off the 25 hrs? I think it boils down to who it is applying for the initial airworthiness certificate, is it the "owner"-the guy who ordered the "build to order" or is it the builder? As it is now, my interpretation of the 51% rule leads me to believe the owner-builder has to be the one who makes the original application for the airworthiness cert and he/she should be the one who flies off the test period hours. And the initial registration named owner should match to builder-owner on the airworthiness cert. I think looking at these things would probably identify those who are violating the 51% rule fairly quickly, if a "complete" aircraft is sold before the test period is over raises a real red flag to me. But, what's to limit some guy from building an airplane, flying off the test period quickly, and then selling the airplane? Does this "qualify" as a "build to order" shop? I think the sale of complete RV-10's especially makes it rather lucrative to cheat the system. Yes, I know I asked about value before, but my motive wasn't for a quick sale, but to see if future market would support re-couping my investment should I decide to build/buy something else a few years down the road.  

    The Feds can pretty well see who it is that's "building to order". As quoted somewhere in this thread someone was saying he could turn around an airplane in three months. That's a major red flag the Feds should be looking for. A raid on that person's operation may be in order. I think turning over four or more kit airplanes a year would definitely qualify a person as a "professional" aircraft builder requiring full conformity to Part 23 and Part 21. Perhaps that's the solution, only one or two airworthiness certs can be issued to any one individual unless they hold or are also applying for a production cert under Part 21 within a year. 

    As Tim points out, keeping a good builder's log and when asked by your DAR is your BEST (and probably ONLY) proof that YOU did the work to put your dream together. Those yayhoos paying some guy to build their airplane and then telling the Feds they built them is only hurting the rest of us who want to do it right. What I'm afraid of is the typical knee-jerk reaction the Feds typically have and we'll end up with a draconian rule that totally hurts the aviation homebuilder/experimenter. 

  

 James K. Hovis

       



 

 On 7/31/06, Wayne Edgerton <wayne.e(at)grandecom.net (wayne.e(at)grandecom.net)> wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		     One way that the FAA might possible be able to curb the "build to sell" crowd would be to put a time line on when a newly built plane could be sold or owners changed. As an example lets say the plane couldn't be sold to a new owner until 6 or 12 months after the hours are flown off or until it has so many hours on it like 300 hours. Then allow a waiver to this in the case of certain conditions such as death of the builder or maybe hell freezing over, something along those lines. 

  

 Wayne Edgerton #40336

  

 Engine work

  

 do not archive

GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:37 am Post subject: -10's for sale in quantity, available today

Do you think the question of the 51% rule is for the RV crowd or some of  the overseas kits where one shows up for a "builder" session then less than 2  weeks later the completed kit ships to the US with all the paperwork saying the  "owner" has completed the 51% rule?

  

 Patrick

james.k.hovis(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:27 am Post subject: -10's for sale in quantity, available today

   Could be. But I'm looking more at the quote from someone on this list saying a guy at OSH quoted a three-month turn around from kit to complete airplane. Assuming using a QB RV-10, I think 1200 hrs of construction time for the average builder. Now assume the "build to order" guy has some experience and can build in 800 hrs, he's getting close to a three month build, but that's working 60 hrs a week. I guess retired folks or those who do this work full time can devote that kind of effort, but I seriously doubt it. This "build to order" example has to have a helper IMHO. Is his "helper" listed as a co-builder? This leads me to a side bar, if I can con my Dad into helping or partnering me on an RV-10 project, I can cut my build time quite a bit. He's a retired aircraft assembler with 35 years experience banging rivets.  

  

 JKH  



 

 On 7/31/06, GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com (GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com) <GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com (GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com)> wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		     Do you think the question of the 51% rule is for the RV crowd or some of the overseas kits where one shows up for a "builder" session then less than 2 weeks later the completed kit ships to the US with all the paperwork saying the "owner" has completed the 51% rule? 

  

 Patrick

pascalreid(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 7:57 am Post subject: -10's for sale in quantity, available today

This "build to order" example has to have a helper IMHO. Is his  "helper" listed as a co-builder? 

  

 Not if the "builder" hires a few guys from the  local Home depot parking lot, or maybe even the super QB from the Phillipines. I  figure you buy all 4 kits at once and have everyone work on the kits at the same  time it will be 4 times faster and can be done rather quickly. 

  

  

 ---

rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:13 am Post subject: -10's for sale in quantity, available today

We are kind of side stepping the real problem.  It's not that they are

not building 51%, it's how do you prove that they are not doing it for

their own education or enjoyment?



 Yes, it's painfully clear that some of the guys like John Nys and

Jessie are doing it at least partially for the financial aspects of

resale.  The difference is at least Jessie is teaching the people

working on it a skill so I think it still meets the intent of the rule.

I would like to see them registered out of the US though but that's my

opinion.  John is a little different story as he is clearly motivated by

profit.  But there is nothing in that fact that directly violated the

rule as long as he is doing it primarily for his education or enjoyment.

So how do you prove it?



  Many people on these lists are repeat offenders and I can guaranty

that most of them have sold their original aircraft.  I myself may build

more aircraft after the -10 because I enjoy the building process.  I'm

certainly not going to keep more than one aircraft but does that mean I

am violating the rule?  I don't think so because I am doing it for

education and enjoyment and not profit.  Will I make a profit? I hope so

as I certainly don't want to loose money and it would be nice to get

something for my time.



  Sorry Jessie, not trying to pick on you but the only immediate

examples I know of are you and John Nys.  Feel free to correct me

anywhere above.



  Now to Van being on this committee.  Keep in mind that Van runs a

business and I seriously doubt he is on the committee to help curb this

activity but rather to find a compromise that won't kill his business.

After all Van's Aircraft knows exactly how many kit's they are shipping

to the repeat offenders.  I did see Van over by Jessie's and the other

-10's parked there making notes.  What does that mean? Got me, he might

have just been a proud papa.



  I'm not trying to raise any backsides but the outcome of a new rule

interpretation won't be good for any of us.  The FAA just has no good

way to set a precedent without killing a good number of us that really

are not financially motivated.  We saw this last year with the EpicLT.

The FAA tried to interpret the rule to the disadvantage of the builder

and lost.  And in that case the builder was doing it for himself and not

for immediate resale.  We need to be careful.



  I have nothing against someone mass producing kitplanes, just do it

out of the country so it doesn't screw up the already fragile laws for

the other 99.5% of us.



Michael Sausen

-10 #352 Fuselage

--

rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:24 am Post subject: -10's for sale in quantity, available today

James,

  

   Nothing in the rule says it has to be the builder to  fly off the hours,  To the contrary lot's of people hire a "test pilot" to  fly off several of the hours.  Another misnomer is that only one person can  be in the aircraft during flyoff but it is actually "required  crew".

  

 Michael



   From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of James K  Hovis

Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 8:23 AM

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: -10's for sale in  quantity, available today

 

    I have to ask a question about the "build to order" aircraft:  Who's flying off the 25 hrs? I think it boils down to who it is applying for the  initial airworthiness certificate, is it the "owner"-the guy who ordered the  "build to order" or is it the builder? As it is now, my interpretation of the  51% rule leads me to believe the owner-builder has to be the one who makes  the original application for the airworthiness cert and he/she should be the one  who flies off the test period hours. And the initial registration named owner  should match to builder-owner on the airworthiness cert. I think looking at  these things would probably identify those who are violating the 51% rule fairly  quickly, if a "complete" aircraft is sold before the test period is over raises  a real red flag to me. But, what's to limit some guy from building an  airplane, flying off the test period quickly, and then selling the  airplane? Does this "qualify" as a "build to order" shop?  I think the sale of complete RV-10's especially makes it rather  lucrative to cheat the system. Yes, I know I asked about value before, but my  motive wasn't for a quick sale, but to see if future market would support  re-couping my investment should I decide to build/buy something else a few years  down the road.  

    The Feds can pretty well see who it is that's "building to  order". As quoted somewhere in this thread someone was saying he could turn  around an airplane in three months. That's a major red flag the Feds should be  looking for. A raid on that person's operation may be in order. I think  turning over four or more kit airplanes a year would definitely qualify a person  as a "professional" aircraft builder requiring full conformity to Part 23 and  Part 21. Perhaps that's the solution, only one or two airworthiness certs can be  issued to any one individual unless they hold or are also applying for a  production cert under Part 21 within a year. 

    As Tim points out, keeping a good builder's log and when asked  by your DAR is your BEST (and probably ONLY) proof that YOU did the work to put  your dream together. Those yayhoos paying some guy to build their airplane and  then telling the Feds they built them is only hurting the rest of us who want to  do it right. What I'm afraid of is the typical knee-jerk reaction the Feds  typically have and we'll end up with a draconian rule that totally hurts the  aviation homebuilder/experimenter. 

  

 James K. Hovis

       



 

 On 7/31/06, Wayne  Edgerton <wayne.e(at)grandecom.net (wayne.e(at)grandecom.net)> wrote:   	  Quote: 	
		           One way that the FAA might possible be able to    curb the "build to sell" crowd would be to put a time line on when a newly    built plane could be sold or owners changed. As an example lets say the plane    couldn't be sold to a new owner until 6 or 12 months after the hours are flown    off or until it has so many hours on it like 300 hours. Then allow a waiver to    this in the case of certain conditions such as death of the builder or maybe    hell freezing over, something along those lines. 

    

   Wayne Edgerton #40336

    

   Engine work

    

   do not archive

rene(at)felker.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:47 am Post subject: -10's for sale in quantity, available today

The local FSDO made it very clear to me that my airplane has a required crew of 1 and only 1 and to not try and use the required crew excuse.  He warned not to get caught trying it…..  

     

Rene' Felker  

        

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen)

 Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 10:24 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: -10's for sale in quantity, available today  

  

   

James,  

   

  Nothing in the rule says it has to be the builder to fly off the hours,  To the contrary lot's of people hire a "test pilot" to fly off several of the hours.  Another misnomer is that only one person can be in the aircraft during flyoff but it is actually "required crew".  

   

Michael  

       

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of James K Hovis

 Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 8:23 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: -10's for sale in quantity, available today    

   I have to ask a question about the "build to order" aircraft: Who's flying off the 25 hrs? I think it boils down to who it is applying for the initial airworthiness certificate, is it the "owner"-the guy who ordered the "build to order" or is it the builder? As it is now, my interpretation of the 51% rule leads me to believe the owner-builder has to be the one who makes the original application for the airworthiness cert and he/she should be the one who flies off the test period hours. And the initial registration named owner should match to builder-owner on the airworthiness cert. I think looking at these things would probably identify those who are violating the 51% rule fairly quickly, if a "complete" aircraft is sold before the test period is over raises a real red flag to me. But, what's to limit some guy from building an airplane, flying off the test period quickly, and then selling the airplane? Does this "qualify" as a "build to order" shop? I think the sale of complete RV-10's especially makes it rather lucrative to cheat the system. Yes, I know I asked about value before, but my motive wasn't for a quick sale, but to see if future market would support re-couping my investment should I decide to build/buy something else a few years down the road.    

    

   The Feds can pretty well see who it is that's "building to order". As quoted somewhere in this thread someone was saying he could turn around an airplane in three months. That's a major red flag the Feds should be looking for. A raid on that person's operation may be in order. I think turning over four or more kit airplanes a year would definitely qualify a person as a "professional" aircraft builder requiring full conformity to Part 23 and Part 21. Perhaps that's the solution, only one or two airworthiness certs can be issued to any one individual unless they hold or are also applying for a production cert under Part 21 within a year.   

    

   As Tim points out, keeping a good builder's log and when asked by your DAR is your BEST (and probably ONLY) proof that YOU did the work to put your dream together. Those yayhoos paying some guy to build their airplane and then telling the Feds they built them is only hurting the rest of us who want to do it right. What I'm afraid of is the typical knee-jerk reaction the Feds typically have and we'll end up with a draconian rule that totally hurts the aviation homebuilder/experimenter.   

    

   

    

James K. Hovis  

    

      

 

    

    

On 7/31/06, Wayne Edgerton <wayne.e(at)grandecom.net (wayne.e(at)grandecom.net)> wrote:         

One way that the FAA might possible be able to curb the "build to sell" crowd would be to put a time line on when a newly built plane could be sold or owners changed. As an example lets say the plane couldn't be sold to a new owner until 6 or 12 months after the hours are flown off or until it has so many hours on it like 300 hours. Then allow a waiver to this in the case of certain conditions such as death of the builder or maybe hell freezing over, something along those lines.   

    

   

    

Wayne Edgerton #40336  

    

   

    

Engine work  

    

   

    

do not archive

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> RV10-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4 Next
Page 1 of 4

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum