Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - EFIS

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

EFIS - BMA or GRT? Op Tech
Goto page 1, 2 Next

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> AeroElectric-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

Deems Davis

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 925

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 10:02 am Post subject: EFIS - BMA or GRT? Op Tech

You should look (at) Op Technologies

http://www.optechnologies.com/products.html

They are more pricey than GRT but they have all of the functionality of 

a Chelton at lower cost with bigger screens + a certified EIS included 

you can also load & display your charts.

Deems Davis # 406

Fuse

http://deemsrv10.com/

Dan Beadle wrote:

[quote] If I were going to fly VFR only, I certainly would go with this 

 system. (Maybe couple with a G496 to get weather and moving map) It is 

 cheap and should be far more reliable, over the long run, than vacuum. 

 They have huge market share due to price, giving them plenty of 

 resources to offer a solid product.

 The trouble I am having is I want solid IFR with moving map and XM – 

 not Dynon features.

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

 *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com 

 [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of 

 *Reginald E. DeLoach

 *Sent:* Monday, August 07, 2006 6:57 AM

 *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

 *Subject:* Re: EFIS - BMA or GRT?

 What about Dynon? Going to do simple mostly VFR day stuff. Seems like 

 they have pretty good bang for the bucks. Looking toward the D100. Any 

 personal experiences either pro or con?

 red :}

 Peter Pengilly wrote:

> PS Have you considered Advanced Flight Systems? They also seem to 

> have a very well engineered product. 

> http://www.advanced-control-systems.com/

>

> Pete

>

> --

aadamson(at)highrf.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 10:48 am Post subject: EFIS - BMA or GRT? Op Tech

Now, wait just one darn minute....If I may correct a few statements that I

believe are a little mis-stated ... 



Chelton is about 10K more pricey than a GRT system, I'll give ya that.  But

the screen size thing flew out the window at OSH, when Chelton announced 10"

displays.  The costs of the OP, with all the goodies is actually more money

than the Chelton.  Also, Op is still using the Xbow 42x AHRS, the one that

is currently recommended for VFR use only.  Even the newly fixed ones are

still failing. 



As for the charts topic... I can't remember, but I believe that the Chelton

also can display the approach plates if you like.  



I know of no component on the OP that is "certified", unlike the Chelton,

which is tested to DO-160e, uses the same code as the certified box,

supports TSO-146, 146a and meets the WAAS GPS as sole navigation

requirements.



BUT, This list certainly isn't the list to "review and critique" the virtues

of either system.  For that, I'd invite you to make sure you do adequate

research on the full gamet.  From the low end to the high end.



As someone else stated on this or a different forum.  For the prospective

buying.  Before you do anything, set down with a clean sheet of paper and

write down your goals.  List things like Backup requirements, flight

requirements, inflight data requirements (Weather, Lightning, etc), List

your size requirements, and latestly list the level of integration that you

want.  The full gamet is possible from 6pack replacement only to fully

integrated FMS systems (with their associated complexities).



Then start the vendor research and figure out what meets your requirements.

Using what I say, or what someone else says is useless if it isn't how you

are going to use the system.



I would offer one other perspective.  If you are going to do IFR with a

system.  Make sure you don't fall victim of the "light IFR" concept.  There

is no such thing.  It's sorta like being a "little pregnant".  If you are

going to use it in the crud, then make sure you think thru how the system

can fail, how it's been testing, and what the value of your cargo is and

factor that into your equation.



Good luck, and happy hunting.

Alan



--

Deems Davis

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 925

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:24 am Post subject: EFIS - BMA or GRT? Op Tech

Sorry, Alan, but the Op Tech 8.4 " Sport (non-certified) has a larger 

screen than the equivalent Chelton Sport (non-certified), it also 

displays more information on its screen/s real estate than does the 

Chelton, it uncludes a JPI 950 EIS within the price, and regarding the 

Crossbow. The Op Tech used the 420 which is the same hardware as the 

failing 425, but contains different software. (Crossbow wrote the 425 to 

Chelton's specs) There are no reports of the Crossbow failing in Op 

installations. And I think if you'll check your figures again, the 

OpSport  is *definitely* priced below the Chelton Sport, )and then add 

on to the cost of the Chelton the EIS of your choice. I'm not trying to 

start a pissing match, my response was intended to show that there are 

more options than were being discussed. My clean sheet of paper led me 

to the OP Tech, others mileage will no doubt vary. Freedom of choice is 

indeed a marvelous blessing.



Deems



Alan K. Adamson wrote:



[quote]



Now, wait just one darn minute....If I may correct a few statements that I

believe are a little mis-stated ... 



Chelton is about 10K more pricey than a GRT system, I'll give ya that.  But

the screen size thing flew out the window at OSH, when Chelton announced 10"

displays.  The costs of the OP, with all the goodies is actually more money

than the Chelton.  Also, Op is still using the Xbow 42x AHRS, the one that

is currently recommended for VFR use only.  Even the newly fixed ones are

still failing. 



As for the charts topic... I can't remember, but I believe that the Chelton

also can display the approach plates if you like.  



I know of no component on the OP that is "certified", unlike the Chelton,

which is tested to DO-160e, uses the same code as the certified box,

supports TSO-146, 146a and meets the WAAS GPS as sole navigation

requirements.



BUT, This list certainly isn't the list to "review and critique" the virtues

of either system.  For that, I'd invite you to make sure you do adequate

research on the full gamet.  From the low end to the high end.



As someone else stated on this or a different forum.  For the prospective

buying.  Before you do anything, set down with a clean sheet of paper and

write down your goals.  List things like Backup requirements, flight

requirements, inflight data requirements (Weather, Lightning, etc), List

your size requirements, and latestly list the level of integration that you

want.  The full gamet is possible from 6pack replacement only to fully

integrated FMS systems (with their associated complexities).



Then start the vendor research and figure out what meets your requirements.

Using what I say, or what someone else says is useless if it isn't how you

are going to use the system.



I would offer one other perspective.  If you are going to do IFR with a

system.  Make sure you don't fall victim of the "light IFR" concept.  There

is no such thing.  It's sorta like being a "little pregnant".  If you are

going to use it in the crud, then make sure you think thru how the system

can fail, how it's been testing, and what the value of your cargo is and

factor that into your equation.



Good luck, and happy hunting.

Alan



--

rtitsworth

Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 76
Location: Detroit, Mi

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:42 am Post subject: EFIS - BMA or GRT? Op Tech

I'm interested to hear from anyone with OPTech EFIS experience.



In my research/investigation I discovered (among other things) that it takes

several menu steps/button presses to do a common/simple ATC Com Freq

handoff.  While not a big deal itself, it is just extra (unnecessary)

workload.



At FNS06 I was told they were working on that (hinted at a new button/menu

layout/system).  At OSH06, nothing new.  They did have their "Pegasus"

system on demo which has dedicated Com buttons and were saying that it is

nothing new (several years old).  However, Iit is not their web site as an

available product.  All seems pretty questionable.



Just looking for independent confirmation and/or enlightenment.

aadamson(at)highrf.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:55 am Post subject: EFIS - BMA or GRT? Op Tech

Deems,



At least we can have a civil discussion... And I agree...No point in hashing

the full discussion here.  A couple of quick points tho.



I have since determined that indeed the Chelton does *not* (at least at this

time), do approach plates, but somewhere in the back of my mind, I've seen

that... Hmmm..



Also, I also agreed with the comment about the screen size, but Chelton

announced at OSH, larger displays also in a "vertical" or portrait mode.



Also just so people don't think this is only a software conversation around

the Xbow AHRS.  The 420 and 425 problems are not *only* software problems,

they are *also* hardware problems.  The problems seem to be related to RMI,

EMI, GPS, and Lightning, either the 420, nor the 425 have any protections in

their hardware for these (GPS is a different thing, could be software, or

hardware).  Also in a brief conversation with the OP guys at OSH, they did

advise that at least one of their customers had seen the problem in the 420

that they used and I believe it was swapped out for the revised version,

don't know if it resolve the problem or not.



Lastly, let's make sure we are talking apples to apples.  The OPSport is a

"single screen" system, the Chelton Sport is a dual screen unit with full

redundancy between them.  Also, the OPSport may come with the JPI, but the

literature says it requires probes to be purchases separately, last I looked

a prob kit wasn't extremely expensive, but wasn't cheap either.  Chelton, at

one time, did offer a single screen unit, but most people opted for the dual

for redundancy and a dedicated MFD.



I believe if you'll take an apples to apples approach, you'll find my

original comments (with the exception of the approach charts, and I'm still

looking for that) were correct.



Isn't it amazing how discussions on EFIS systems are so "threatening"...

Just an observation, thanks for having a civil conversation...Enough of

this...



Alan



--

rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:36 pm Post subject: EFIS - BMA or GRT? Op Tech

One thing you will find about OP Tech is that they are less than quick

about letting you know about what is up and coming.  Not really great

for building user excitement.  However they are very much alive and

well.  As a matter of fact they are seeking certification which is part

of the reason they have been quiet and nothing much is changing.  As far

as the X-bow you can upgrade to the certified 500 series if you really

are concerned but as Deems said the problems were with the Chelton

specific version of the 400 series.  Also there is no way to view the

charts on the Chelton at this time let alone flying the chart as the OP

does.



I am seriously looking at the OP stuff.  Previously I was planning on

the Chelton but the PR fiasco with the changing price a while back and

the x-bow stuff has me a little chilled.  Also keep in mind that they

haven't really developed anything new in a long time either.  The 10"

screen for Chelton is news to me but I probably don't want to see how

much more that will cost either.



Michael Sausen

RV-10 #352 Buildus Interuptus due to moving

--

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 1:21 pm Post subject: EFIS - BMA or GRT? Op Tech

Mike Dennis, owner of Oregon Aero took one of his two Pilatus PC-12s and

made it Experimental to install FLIR in the top of the vertical stab.  I

will see if he used Optech and Flir (another Oregon company).



John Cox



--

rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 1:27 pm Post subject: EFIS - BMA or GRT? Op Tech

Both the Chelton and the OP are single screen or dual screen and both

have the option of adding a second or third screen.  You can do a one to

one comparison based on the prices by ignoring the name next to each.

The Chelton does not include the EIS or the probes while the OP only

doesn't include the probes.  Neither OP nor Chelton are fully redundant

at the ADHARS level, only the screen/processing level.  Also keep in

mind that the new AFS stuff uses x-bow but it may be the 500 series and

I believe GRT also might but I'm not positive.  However the GRT is a

fully redundant system.



Michael Sausen

RV-10 #352 Buildus Interuptus due to moving



--

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 1:39 pm Post subject: EFIS - BMA or GRT? Op Tech

As the guy who derailed Tim Olson's pursuit of GRT towards Chelton

months ago (Jim Hergert's panel in N6XE)... I need to pipe in that my

meeting with Schrameck's guys at Epic LT gave the following support.

They are 68 units back-ordered in production over in Bend, OR.  They

have decided to standardize on the OpTech panel for all production. No

GRT, No Dynon, No BMA, and no Chelton. They are in pursuit of a twin jet

version and bringing the company into Certification (Part 23) just like

Lancair/Columbia.



That is no small commitment for a multi-million dollar aircraft

manufacturer.



I want to thank Deems for his insight, his post and his confidence in

their equipment, cause all of this discussion is invaluable to the

learning process.  Data comes quick in a turbojet and they are not

usually VFR only. No horse in the race.



John Cox



--

rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 1:52 pm Post subject: EFIS - BMA or GRT? Op Tech

Sorry, one last thing.  The 10" Chelton screen is only available in the

certified model.  If you need to ask how much you can't afford it.  



Michael Sausen

RV-10 #352 Buildus Interuptus due to moving

aadamson(at)highrf.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:27 pm Post subject: EFIS - BMA or GRT? Op Tech

Uh, don't think that's true.... Maybe I got my inches wrong, but D2AV had a

handout of the "large display" (could it have been 8.4", I don't

remember")... Coming soon to an Avionics Shop near your.  Not just for the

Certified guys, but also for the EX guys...plus new digital radios.



Alan 



--

rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:25 pm Post subject: EFIS - BMA or GRT? Op Tech

Just talked to Josh and you are correct.  They look very nice!  About

the same price as a G900.   Just like the OP though, I don't see the

point of an integrated radios.  Lot more money for not much added

functionality.  Personal preference I guess.  One thing I thought was

funny was the number of digits on the radio display at OSH.  Only one

digit past the decimal point.  Hmmmm.



Michael Sausen



--

cberland(at)systems3.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:53 pm Post subject: EFIS - BMA or GRT? Op Tech

Alan, you are correct. The large display is approx. 10.25 total height

with approx. 8.25 screen height.  I have two on order for experimental.



Craig Berland




--> <aadamson(at)highrf.com>



Uh, don't think that's true.... Maybe I got my inches wrong, but D2AV

had a handout of the "large display" (could it have been 8.4", I don't

remember")... Coming soon to an Avionics Shop near your.  Not just for

the Certified guys, but also for the EX guys...plus new digital radios.



Alan 



--

aadamson(at)highrf.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:04 pm Post subject: EFIS - BMA or GRT? Op Tech

Um, who said anything about "integrated" as OP does.  I'll rephrase that to

"faceless".  The Cheltons are standalone radios/Transponder that can be

integrated into the FMS.  I have no idea of price but I understand they will

be available in standalone with the funky screws and standalone with regular

mounting (for us normal folks).  They may also come with a removable face

that would let you mount the bulk of the hardware elsewhere.



Also, not sure what you are talking about on the radios.  The card that I

saw looked normal, and here is the webpage, the displays are 2 digits past

the decimal, just like everyone else.  The unit on top is a transponder.



http://www.d2av.com/Radios/



Alan

--

aadamson(at)highrf.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:39 pm Post subject: EFIS - BMA or GRT? Op Tech

Also for those following the bouncing ball.



The chelton large display price comparison to the G900 that Micheal is

making is for a combo system with radios and in the Chelton Pro line (not

the certified line, but the Pro experimental line).  All the conversation

that I've had to date has been around the pricing of the "sport" line...



Ok, I'm done with this topic...and have wasted enough bandwidth.  If you are

looking and you are going to spend these kinds of dollars, for heavens sake,

go fly behind any of them before you buy!



Alan 



--

JohnT(at)comp-sol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 6:50 am Post subject: EFIS - BMA or GRT? Op Tech

Mike,



The Chelton does have 2 AHRS inputs....pin 7&49 on the HD62 connector is

AHRS2.  One can switch via software on the IDU.



One can also wire the units separately - or using AHRS1 input, a switch

can select which AHRS is 'active'.



I have not checked on the air data portion - 



John



Time: 02:27:43 PM PST US

Subject: RE: EFIS - BMA or GRT? Op Tech

From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net>




<rvbuilder(at)sausen.net>



  Both the Chelton and the OP are single screen or dual screen and both

have the option of adding a second or third screen.  You can do a one to

one comparison based on the prices by ignoring the name next to each.

The Chelton does not include the EIS or the probes while the OP only

doesn't include the probes.  Neither OP nor Chelton are fully redundant

at the ADHARS level, only the screen/processing level.  Also keep in

mind that the new AFS stuff uses x-bow but it may be the 500 series and

I believe GRT also might but I'm not positive.  However the GRT is a

fully redundant system.



Michael Sausen

RV-10 #352 Buildus Interuptus due to moving

rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 7:51 am Post subject: EFIS - BMA or GRT? Op Tech

Yep, I'm aware that it has the capability.  What I was referring to was

what is standard.  This thread went a little sideways because of some

peoples passion with what they purchased.  I have no problem with that

and I think everyone should be that confident in what they bought.  As

Alan said do some due diligence before you plop down any amount of money

on experimental EFIS's.  I haven't made a decision yet personally and I

am very anxious to see what comes out from OP & Chelton over the next 6

months or so.  They both have some improvements coming.



Michael Sausen

RV-10 #352 Buildus Interuptus due to moving



--

Tim(at)MyRV10.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 9:58 pm Post subject: EFIS - BMA or GRT? Op Tech

I have just a couple things to add about EFIS Choices.



As someone said, make a list of your requirements on paper before you

go shopping.  Read as much as you can so you even KNOW all of the

features you may be looking for.  Then pick an EFIS that has as

much as possible that's on your list.  Everyone's list will be

different.



Fly behind anything you think you might want to buy.  It will

be an incredibly valuable experience.  I nearly built an RV-6

at one point...but flew one first and that put me into a holding

pattern.  An EFIS is a complex piece of equipment.  It's worth

a few hundred bucks to find someone and fly behind one.



One thing that people always forget about with their EFIS is

database updates.  A GRT or BMA might be a fine EFIS for you,

but if you're going to rely on them to fly approaches, remember

that you're going to need a current database.  Or if you're

controlling the approach with a 430/530/480, you will need

a current one there....or at least a current chart in hand

and the ability to keep in close enough touch during the

approach that you don't let your fancy GPS/Com or EFIS fly

you on a non-current approach.  I have a Chelton system, with

a database subscription.  If you can't get a database update

on a 28 day cycle for whatever your primary navigation gear is,

you're going to be severely limited.  That's my main gripe

about the GRT stuff, by the way.  You really need to look at

the whole big picture in this much detail.



As far as the AHRS goes, I think someone needs to set the record

straight on the 420/425/500 stuff being flung around.  The 420

and 425 are pretty darn close, and I've been seeing lots of

actual data lately showing there are some GPS issues with the

unit that may be causing some of the failures people are having.

I'd be a bit leery until the company has it solved and wouldn't

assume the 420 isn't affected.  I've now heard that numerous

425 owners who have "fixed" units are still having problems.

Then, dig in a bit further and ask someone in the know EXACTLY

what is the difference between the real certified 500 system,

and the "500 based" systems that are being touted around.  Lots

of people are saying theirs use the 500, but in at least

some cases, it is not truly the same 500....but a 500 with

some of the specialties removed...turning it into a slightly

less ruggedized and non-certified experimental unit.  Do some

serious research into this.



Don't forget cost.  Nobody should take offense when someone picks

an EFIS that's not their favorite.  I personally thought the GRT

stuff looked pretty good for that budget.  Things like the

database updates, and the screen quality knocked them out for me,

but for some buyers, it may be their dream panel.  Everyone has

a different mission.  It's also nice to see people like Deems

try something a little less common in our EFIS world.  The OP

stuff hasn't really been as popular with our "budget" kits, so

it'll be interesting to see how it all goes.  It is definitely

different than the other offerings.



As far as screen size, having never flown behind the huge

screen systems, but having flown behind my Cheltons, I personally

can't see why a bigger screen is necessarily better.  It would

depend on how flexible the information placement is.  Certainly

though, numerous smaller screens can be just as effective as

a pair of larger screen.  Since our panels are only so big, we

have limited space, and depending on your personal requirements

for backup systems, you may not have the space you want for

big screens.  Just rest assured that big or small, you should

be able to get all the functionality you need into your panel,

and from a practical point of view I really don't see that the

size would matter much, as long as you have something in the

neighborhood of the size of the GRT's.



There's just way too much involved in these decisions, and

making them can be quite trying at times.  Just make sure you

don't sell yourself short an make a quick and rash decision.



One minor note:  For those who demand dual AHRS systems, I know

the GRT already does this, but now with the Pinpoints for

the Cheltons you have that option as well.  Not a requirement

for everyone, but just so you know, there is now the option.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Alan K. Adamson wrote:

[quote] 

 

 Um, who said anything about "integrated" as OP does.  I'll rephrase that to

 "faceless".  The Cheltons are standalone radios/Transponder that can be

 integrated into the FMS.  I have no idea of price but I understand they will

 be available in standalone with the funky screws and standalone with regular

 mounting (for us normal folks).  They may also come with a removable face

 that would let you mount the bulk of the hardware elsewhere.

 

 Also, not sure what you are talking about on the radios.  The card that I

 saw looked normal, and here is the webpage, the displays are 2 digits past

 the decimal, just like everyone else.  The unit on top is a transponder.

 

 http://www.d2av.com/Radios/

 

 Alan

 --

mlas(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 3:44 pm Post subject: EFIS - BMA or GRT? Op Tech

Tim,



Well written!  I too fly behind the Chelton system and have worked with

the 420/425 and the problems that continue to plaque the unit.  One of

the issue is the influence the GPS has over the gyro output.  If you get

a map shift with the 420/425 due to a position error or reception error

you also get a gyro shift at the same time.  This is not good in IMC.

The 425 had other problems with gyro initialization with low startup

voltage.  This caused the unit to fail on initialization.  Another

problem is a P-static ground feed back issue that has not been fully and

technically explained to me.  The fixes for the units in question only

fix the later two issues, not the first issue.  It is my opinion the

design philosophy to allow the GPS position to have influence over the

GYRO platform on the 420/425 unit is unacceptable and unworkable without

a redesign.



Mike Larkin



Lancair Legacy

TS-11 Iskra

Kitfox IV  (All Flying!)



--

sales(at)6440autoparts.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 5:01 pm Post subject: EFIS - BMA or GRT? Op Tech

I am not technicly minded but that is the reason I decided on 

the GRT they claim their gyro system is indipendant of the GPS.



Randy



---

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> AeroElectric-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page 1, 2 Next
Page 1 of 2

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum