 |
Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Nic(at)skyhi.flyer.co.uk
Guest
|
 Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 1:30 am Post subject: SLA's and the SportCruiser |
 |
|
Jim, I think I am on the correct list - being an RV8 owner.
You said ...
"Sorry, Nic, for being blunt; but, not all of us are loaded with cash for
this hobby. Many, like myself, struggle to afford what little we have to
contribute to this hobby. A statement like the one you made makes us poor
folks cringe a little.  "
In answer to your points:
Build Costs: The build will be considerably less than the cost of my RV8.
See http://www.spriteaviation.co.uk/ for details.
Build: The kit quality is equal or better than my RV with a canopy that
is complete and fits and a build time of 500 hrs max.
Running Costs: I paid E2.20L in Holland last week, that is $10.59 for a
USgallon of AVGAS. Hence the SLA with 912.
Return on Investment: This is changing rapidly, with running costs, so you
wont be able to rely on past residuals.
Future: The RV12 will be late on the scene and looks awful, but SLA's and
micros with great performance are becoming the aircraft of choice, Yes I
will still fly the RV8 for a while but the world is changing fast .......
RVList: I understood this list to be a medium to exchange ideas, so why
exile members who have different opinions?
Rgds, Nic from a rainy and windswept England
Time: 06:01:15 AM PST US
From: "Jim Sears" <jmsears(at)adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: Capella and other LSA's
It's nice that some of us are lucky enough to have enough cash on hand to
afford one of the new LSA aircraft. Some are pretty nifty looking.
Unfortunately, I've read from readers of some publications that folks aren't
too happy about the pricing. Granted, it does cost to produce these
aircraft; but, most of the folks we're trying to get into the fold of
aviation can no longer support the costs of entry. Thus, we're trying to
get those who've had to leave, for some reason, to return. And what about
the ultralight pilots we'd like to convert?
With the cost of a new LSA ready-to-fly aircraft, most just shake their
heads and not bother.
Nic erred when he said to the RV-list that he can't understand why anyone
would want to build a RV-12 when there are so many good LSAs out there. As
Jerry mentioned, price would be a major factor to most of us, unless one is
looking for a good used LSA compliant aircraft. Some of those are pricey,
enough. Building an aircraft is how many of us can afford to have what we
want, even LSA.
When I read Nic's statement, I couldn't help but wonder why Nic is on the
RV-list. Based on his statement, he may be better off in a LSA discussion
group. I can't help but feel that he can better afford one than I can.
Sorry, Nic, for being blunt; but, not all of us are loaded with cash for
this hobby. Many, like myself, struggle to afford what little we have to
contribute to this hobby. A statement like the one you made makes us poor
folks cringe a little.
I know this group is primarily made up of RV builders/flyers; so, it stands
to reason that when LSA comes up on this list, the RV-12 is the answer for
many of us. I've looked at some of the other kits, knowing that they fly
well, and wonder how their flimsy construction, when compared to a RV, can
hold together. I also wonder how well they'll hold up in the used aircraft
market. One of the main reasons I own my RV is that I know I can get most,
if not all, of my investment back out of it. I'm not so sure about those
others. I'm a little biased, Nic. I'll bet I'm not alone. 
Anyway, I'm betting Nic really didn't mean what he said the way he said it.
If he did, he's subscribed to the wrong list. Those of us on this list have
RVs in our blood.
Jim Sears in KY
RV-12 in the future? Maybe.
do not archive
| | - The Matronics RV-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
jmsears(at)adelphia.net
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 4:18 am Post subject: SLA's and the SportCruiser |
|
|
| Quote: | Jim, I think I am on the correct list - being an RV8 owner.
|
I learned from another lister that you own an RV-8 and may be a little
unhappy with it. Thus, your quickness to consider another LSA over the
RV-12. If you're unhappy with RVs, you may prefer to discuss LSAs on
another list. Discussing RVs has to leave a bad taste in your mouth, if
you're unhappy with what you have.
BTW, did you build your RV or buy it? To those of us who've built and flown
our own RVs, there's a strong bonding to the designs and manufacturer, which
you may not have if you bought your RV. As for the dislike of the design,
it's only as good as the builder. A well built RV is a dream to fly. A
poorly built RV will be only as good as the builder made it.
A ready built LSA is over $100KUS, which is more than your RV-8 unless you
put a lot of extra goodies in it. Of course, it's not if you bought your
RV. I just wonder how the price of the Sportcruiser experimental LSA will
compare to the RV-12. I'd rather compare to something like a Zodiac, which
is much closer to how one would build the RV-12. The Sportcruiser is a QB
assembly job with some possible building restrictions that we don't have
with experimentals that meet LSA standards. I'm sure a QB RV-12 would have
the same quality as the Sportcruiser.
If one builds a Zodiac, or RV-12, I'm betting the cost will be about half,
or less, of the ready built LSA, unless one is talking about one of the
fabric covered two place ultralights. Even those can be pricey. I did not
do the monetary conversion, or don't know what the cost would be for
shipping in the US, for the Sportcruiser.
| Quote: | Build: The kit quality is equal or better than my RV with a canopy >
that is complete and fits and a build time of 500 hrs max.
|
Ah. We are talking about the experimental LSAs. OK, you have a
manufactured aircraft, for the most part, that has most of the things done
for you by those who do the same things every day. I would expect, for the
price, everything to fit nicely. Also, many of the LSA designs are glass,
which in itself makes things look nice. When one builds a RV, it's up the
the builder to do a good job, if the finished product is to look good. If
your RV is not up to the good looks that I see very often in my area, the
failure was not in the design. It was in the builder. My own RV doesn't
match up to the beauty that I see in some of the RVs in my area, to include
some beautiful RV-8s. I blame myself for that.
Since I did take the time to look at the Sportcruiser web site, let me say
something about its fit and finish. It's a nifty looking design. The
canopy is designed somewhat like that of the Zodiac and RV-12, though. I
did notice in some pictures that the canopy is not fitting as well as I'd
like to see at the rear of the canopy. I saw what looked like brake lines
hanging out in the open air, under the fuse. Tacky and may be a carry over
from ultralight thinking. The cowling top cover has very few fasteners
which leads to gaps in the spaces between them. One can clearly see them in
the photos. I could go on; but, I'm not going to beat up on what looks like
a nice airplane. I want to point out that every design has something that
displeases the eyes of the beholder.
| Quote: | Running Costs: I paid E2.20L in Holland last week, that is $10.59 > for a
USgallon of AVGAS. Hence the SLA with 912.
|
Yeah, that Avgas can be pretty expensive in England. Here, we can run auto
gas in many of our RVs, if we want to. If one sets up a RV-12, or Zodiac,
to run on auto gas, the cost won't be prohibitive for a poor guy like me.
Of course, flying anywhere in England, or Europe in general, costs more than
I can afford. It trully is a rich man's hobby. In the US, even a poor guy
like me can afford to own and fly an airplane, if one watches his expenses
carefully.
| Quote: | Return on Investment: This is changing rapidly, with running costs, > so
you wont be able to rely on past residuals.
|
Maybe not; but, I'd rather take my chances on having my RV retain its value
over several years than to chance it on any other aircraft, be it a LSA,
commercially built aircraft, or experimental aircraft. BTW, there are some
really neat experimentals in the US that are flying today, meet the LSA
criteria, and cost almost nothing on the used aircraft market. The reason
is that they did not retain their value.
| Quote: | Future: The RV12 will be late on the scene and looks awful, but > SLA's
and micros with great performance are becoming the aircraft > of choice,
Yes I will still fly the RV8 for a while but the world is
changing fast .......
|
Yes, it is. I'm growing older and may consider buying a new LSA, if I were
richer than I am; but, I'm not. With that, I have to consider what I can
afford. As for the looks, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Very few
of the LSAs have caught my eye as being trully beautiful craft. Some are
plain ugly! Those that are really neat are priced accordingly.
With so many LSAs on the open market, these days, one has to be wary of the
designs, how long these companies will be in business, product support, etc.
Those of us with RVs know that Van has been around for a long time, has
solid designs, has good product support, and will most likley be around for
some time to come.
| Quote: | RVList: I understood this list to be a medium to exchange ideas, > so
why exile members who have different opinions?
|
It is; but, I wasn't really responding to your love of LSAs. I like some of
those, myself. I was responding to what seemed like arrogance in that it's
easy for the rich to just toss money at things when many of us on the list
are not able to do that. Thus, we're builders because that's what we can
afford.. After having done it, one gets an attachment to designs. For us,
it's the RV. We get pretty defensive when someone cuts them down. They're
great designs with a good bang for the buck. Since you've been known to cut
down the design because of your experiences with your RV, you may not be as
closely attached to the design as many of us are. You may be more happy
discussing LSAs than RVs, which means you may be happier on another list.
| Quote: | Rgds, Nic from a rainy and windswept England
|
And, this may be the reason for our opposing opinions. I considered your
statement to be somewhat arrogant; but, I now see where you're from and
better understand your reasoning. With that, I'm sure you'll find that
we'll continue to disagree because we don't have the same values. In the
US, I can afford to own and fly a RV. In England, I can't even afford the
gas. I'd have to be one of those guys who goes to airports and collects
registration numbers as a hobby.
In Europe, folks talk,and own, ultraligts, etc. because that's all most can
afford, if they can afford that. We in the US talk about more powerful
aircraft because the cost, and restrictions of operations, are not as
prohibitive. If you own your own RV in England, that says you're pretty
well off. Your statement that started this discussion hinted at that and
made me cringe because it seemed a bit arrogant. To be fair, I've known
other Englishers who were a tad arrogant, to me. Again, a difference in
where we live.
Jim Sears in KY
do not archive
| | - The Matronics RV-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 5:13 am Post subject: SLA's and the SportCruiser |
|
|
Hi, Jim,
I know some Englishmen myself. I don't know that I would say they're
'arrogant' as much as proud....and justifiably so. After all, they gave
us our language, our laws, much of our culture, most of our political
system, many of our attitudes....wow, now that I think about it--dang
those Englishmen, they're the ones to blame, it's all their fault!!!!
Just kidding and Do Not Archive
Chuck Jensen
[quote] --
| | - The Matronics RV-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
khorton01(at)rogers.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 6:00 am Post subject: SLA's and the SportCruiser |
|
|
Now we just need someone to give a bit of tolerance - tolerance for
other people, and other ideas.
Kevin Horton
On 12 Aug 2006, at 09:13, Chuck Jensen wrote:
| Quote: |
Hi, Jim,
I know some Englishmen myself. I don't know that I would say they're
'arrogant' as much as proud....and justifiably so. After all, they
gave
us our language, our laws, much of our culture, most of our political
system, many of our attitudes....wow, now that I think about it--dang
those Englishmen, they're the ones to blame, it's all their fault!!!!
Just kidding and Do Not Archive
Chuck Jensen
|
| | - The Matronics RV-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jmsears(at)adelphia.net
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:04 am Post subject: SLA's and the SportCruiser |
|
|
| Quote: | > I know some Englishmen myself. I don't know that I would say they're
> 'arrogant' as much as proud....and justifiably so. After all, they gave
> us our language, our laws, much of our culture, most of our political
> system, many of our attitudes....wow, now that I think about it--dang
> those Englishmen, they're the ones to blame, it's all their fault!!!!<<
|
Hey, guys. I'm not down on Englishmen. I have a couple of good friends who
are from England. In fact, one of my brothers-in-law is from the London,
England area. I'm proud to know those that I' ve befriended. However,
when I see a statement that seems arrogant, or snobbish, I just have to say
something. Maybe Nic didn't mean it that way; but, it came across that way
to me.
Personally, I think associating myself with a fine group of RV builders is
humbling. Some who are more affluent than I am sometimes tend to stick
their noses up a little too high; but, I rarely see that on the list. When
I do see it, I'm offended. I have friends I fly with who are much more
affluent than I; but, one wouldn't know it by talking with them. It's when
they pull out their flying machines that the truth comes out.
As for Nic, he may not be very happy with RVs because of his own
experiences. LSA may be his way out of a bad situation. For those of us
who aren't having problems, other than those we must admit are of our own
making, RVs are probably going to be well into our futures.
Of course, I have to admit the RV-12 isn't the prettiest bird in town; but,
I still look for a company that I can trust to have a good design, have
longevity as a company for support, have good and friendly support, have
designs that are good bangs for the buck, etc.. At the moment, I tend to
look at the Zodiac, the RV-12, the Sonex, etc. as my choices. Those may not
be as good as some of the Euro LSA types; but, I know they'll probably be
around in future years when I need pieces and parts from them, even if they
may be a tad ugly. As for me, I just hope I can afford one, when the time
comes.
BTW, has everyone noticed which homebuilt design is more likely to be seen
at a fly-in? I've often thought about building something besides the RV so
that I can have something different! Then, I come back to my senses.
| Quote: | > Now we just need someone to give a bit of tolerance - tolerance for other
> people, and other ideas.<<
|
Kevin is correct. The nice thing about this forum is its collection of
ideas. I still learn from others. I don't always agree with everyone; but,
I oftentimes agree with those same folks on other ideas. Cut down the RV
designs; and, all bets are off.
BTW, has anyone else read the article about the EAA Sport Pilot about the
Flight Design CT for 2006? It seems like a good design; but, it's one butt
ugly little ship. Opinions may vary.
Jim in KY
RV-6A N198JS (Scooter)
RV-9A (helped to build for a friend)
RV-7A #70317 (Building fuse, slowly and surely)
RV-12 in the future?
do not archive
| | - The Matronics RV-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nic(at)skyhi.flyer.co.uk
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 1:28 am Post subject: SLA's and the SportCruiser |
|
|
Jim, I don't have a "bad taste" in my mouth for my RV8, it is in fact an
award winner and featured this month on the cover of our main flying
monthly. See :
http://www.loop.aero
I aim to fly over a hundred passengers to convert them this year (I am
nearly half way).
However, the RV8 design has some flaws, and talking to RV8 owners in Sweden
last weekend at an RV fly-in, some pilots have even gone to the extent of
modifying the wing fuselage interface, as well as basic things like pilot
ergonomics and undercarriage, no design is perfect. In some areas the RV8
excels in others it is poor.
The analysis of my RV8 also pertains to my view of SLA's, they have
limitations on pilot weight and load, they are not as fast, but they also
have a number of benefits, not least of which is operating costs, which will
be an increasingly important factor in years to come (even in the US). The
jury has yet to convene on the RV12, but based on looks I don't think I will
be head of the queue.
You say ...
| Quote: | ........ If you own your own RV in England, that says you're pretty
well off. Your statement that started this discussion hinted at that and
made me cringe because it seemed a bit arrogant. To be fair, I've known
other Englishers who were a tad arrogant, to me.
|
Jim, you are making assumptions here that are way off the mark ... but I
like your sense of humour.
As to list eligibility, I suggest that pilots that have a broad flying
interest in terms of type and geography can bring a different perspective to
what would otherwise be a rather uniform RV grin.
The sun is finally appearing from behind the clouds and rain and it is time
to go and fly. Rgds, Nic
| | - The Matronics RV-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bertrv6(at)highstream.net
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 6:50 am Post subject: SLA's and the SportCruiser |
|
|
Quoting Jim Sears <jmsears(at)adelphia.net>:
| Quote: |
>> I know some Englishmen myself. I don't know that I would say they're
>> 'arrogant' as much as proud....and justifiably so. After all, they gave
>> us our language, our laws, much of our culture, most of our political
>> system, many of our attitudes....wow, now that I think about it--dang
>> those Englishmen, they're the ones to blame, it's all their fault!!!!<<
Hey, guys. I'm not down on Englishmen. I have a couple of good friends who
are from England. In fact, one of my brothers-in-law is from the London,
England area. I'm proud to know those that I' ve befriended. However,
when I see a statement that seems arrogant, or snobbish, I just have to say
something. Maybe Nic didn't mean it that way; but, it came across that way
to me.
Personally, I think associating myself with a fine group of RV builders is
humbling. Some who are more affluent than I am sometimes tend to stick
their noses up a little too high; but, I rarely see that on the list. When
I do see it, I'm offended. I have friends I fly with who are much more
affluent than I; but, one wouldn't know it by talking with them. It's when
they pull out their flying machines that the truth comes out.
As for Nic, he may not be very happy with RVs because of his own
experiences. LSA may be his way out of a bad situation. For those of us
who aren't having problems, other than those we must admit are of our own
making, RVs are probably going to be well into our futures.
Of course, I have to admit the RV-12 isn't the prettiest bird in town; but,
I still look for a company that I can trust to have a good design, have
longevity as a company for support, have good and friendly support, have
designs that are good bangs for the buck, etc.. At the moment, I tend to
look at the Zodiac, the RV-12, the Sonex, etc. as my choices. Those may not
be as good as some of the Euro LSA types; but, I know they'll probably be
around in future years when I need pieces and parts from them, even if they
may be a tad ugly. As for me, I just hope I can afford one, when the time
comes.
BTW, has everyone noticed which homebuilt design is more likely to be seen
at a fly-in? I've often thought about building something besides the RV so
that I can have something different! Then, I come back to my senses.
>> Now we just need someone to give a bit of tolerance - tolerance for other
>> people, and other ideas.<<
Kevin is correct. The nice thing about this forum is its collection of
ideas. I still learn from others. I don't always agree with everyone; but,
I oftentimes agree with those same folks on other ideas. Cut down the RV
designs; and, all bets are off.
BTW, has anyone else read the article about the EAA Sport Pilot about the
Flight Design CT for 2006? It seems like a good design; but, it's one butt
ugly little ship. Opinions may vary.
Jim in KY
RV-6A N198JS (Scooter)
RV-9A (helped to build for a friend)
RV-7A #70317 (Building fuse, slowly and surely)
RV-12 in the future?
do not archive
|
| | - The Matronics RV-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jsflyrv(at)verizon.net
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 8:58 am Post subject: SLA's and the SportCruiser |
|
|
Nic wrote:
| Quote: |
However, the RV8 design has some flaws, and talking to RV8 owners in Sweden
last weekend at an RV fly-in, some pilots have even gone to the extent of
modifying the wing fuselage interface, as well as basic things like pilot
ergonomics and undercarriage, no design is perfect. In some areas the RV8
excels in others it is poor.
I think you better describe more about the above statements. I would
|
like to hear more about the wing to fuselage interface!!!!
And the poor side of trhe design
Jerry
do not archive
| | - The Matronics RV-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
Get Email Distribution Too!
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
