Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - Electric Flaps option

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Electric Flaps option
Goto page 1, 2 Next

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> RV-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

flyrv6(at)bryantechnology
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:21 am Post subject: Electric Flaps option

Ok listers, here is my questions.

  

 I have been building my -6 for 16 years now but finalizing the assembly at the airport now.  I am pretty close but finding the need to change/ update some things.  The tailwheel which I previously posted about needed to be changed to full swivel.  It did take me some time to mess with this, but I will be happier.

  

 The flaps is the next question.  I was pretty set on having manual flaps, but beings I put a quadrant in I would like to eventually after flying have a arm rest in the center.  Unfortunately the manual flaps make this difficult.  After flying with Mike Seager using the electric flaps, I figured it wasn't so bad.  So, here's my questions:

  

 Is changing the flaps to electric easier using the existing weldment?

 What would be the disadvantages to using it?

 How does the replacement weldment mount in the aircraft?

 I understand the RV-10 has an electric switch that is position controlled, Could I use this?  In the trainer we just held the switch down for 4 seconds to get half flaps.  This has always been my complaint about electric flaps.  I don't want to hold a switch for a count.  Sounds like the RV-10 has a fix for this.

 How big a job am I looking at to change this over?  I am trying to figure out weather to go ahead and do it now or get flying first.  Don't want too many more delays.

  

 Thanks as always for any input

 Tim Bryan

 RV-6

 N616TB

  

          [quote][b]

recapen(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:18 am Post subject: Electric Flaps option

Tim,

 

The weldment is a different one for electric.  It will get in the way of a future armrest too.

I'm relocating the 'electric' actuator arm to the right side - next to the flap arm and will put the motor over there too (been done before - check the archives) to make room for my arm rest / entry foot step.

Van's has a switch which allows for nice operation...down once for 10, again for 20 again for full, up once to retract.

 

Ralph

RV6AQB N822AR (at) N06 Firewall foreward - then wings/flaps......



[quote]--

flyrv6(at)bryantechnology
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:31 am Post subject: Electric Flaps option

Hi Ralph,

  

 Thanks for the comments.  I am not sure how the electric gets in the way for an armrest.  I thought only the flap handle (manual) needing to move up or down would be in the way.  What am I missing?  Also Van's catalog shows two different conversion kits.  One which uses the existing weldment and another kit with the original weldment used for electric.  I am not sure which way would be the best or how the other type mounts.

  

 I love that switch idea, hope I could use that.

  

 Tim 



  

 --> RV-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net (recapen(at)earthlink.net)>

  

  

 The weldment is a different one for electric.  It will get in the way of a future armrest too.

 I'm relocating the 'electric' actuator arm to the right side - next to the flap arm and will put the motor over there too (been done before - check the archives) to make room for my arm rest / entry foot step.

 Van's has a switch which allows for nice operation...down once for 10, again for 20 again for full, up once to retract.

  

 Ralph

 RV6AQB N822AR (at) N06 Firewall foreward - then wings/flaps......

  

  

  

          [quote][b]

sbuc(at)hiwaay.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:35 am Post subject: Electric Flaps option

Tim Bryan wrote:

<snip>

 	  Quote: 	
		   The flaps is the next question.  I was pretty set on having manual flaps,

 but beings I put a quadrant in I would like to eventually after flying have

 a arm rest in the center.  Unfortunately the manual flaps make this

 difficult.  After flying with Mike Seager using the electric flaps, I

 figured it wasn't so bad.  So, here's my questions:

 Is changing the flaps to electric easier using the existing weldment?

 

 What would be the disadvantages to using it?

 

 How does the replacement weldment mount in the aircraft?

 

 I understand the RV-10 has an electric switch that is position controlled,

 Could I use this?  In the trainer we just held the switch down for 4 seconds

 to get half flaps.  This has always been my complaint about electric flaps. 

 I don't want to hold a switch for a count.  Sounds like the RV-10 has a fix

 for this.

 

 How big a job am I looking at to change this over?  I am trying to figure

 out weather to go ahead and do it now or get flying first.  Don't want too

 many more delays.


	




Here is a link to notes on the manual to electric flap conversion in my 

RV-6:



http://thervjournal.com/fuse7.html#flaps



If you can weld or have access to someone that can, the manual torque 

tube can be readily modified. Otherwise, it would be easier to buy the 

arm from Vans.



In my opinion the conversion is one of the best mods you can make to 

your RV-6 (full-swivel tailwheel was a good one, too). Total shop time 

for the mode was about 18 hrs. I find it easier to make a quick glance 

over the shoulder to check flap deployment rather than counting. 

Electric flap operation quickly becomes intuitive as you sense the 

impact of flaps on the airplane attitude/speed and the whole "counting" 

thing becomes moot. I suggest you make the mod now while you are in 

building mode and so you can get accustomed to electric flaps from the 

get-go.



Go for it!



Sam Buchanan

jeffpoint

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 72
Location: MKE

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 10:02 am Post subject: Electric Flaps option

Sam did this a few years ago and write it up on his website:



http://home.hiwaay.net/~sbuc/journal/fuse7.html#flaps



The device used in the 10 to position the flaps is available from Vans 

for all other RVs as well:



http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?ident=1155923952-384-594&browse=electrical&product=fps



Jeff Point

RV-6 flying

RV-8 preview plans in hand...

Milwaukee



 	  Quote: 	
		  *

*

_________________
Jeff Point
RV-6
Milwaukee WI

ronlee(at)pcisys.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 10:02 am Post subject: Electric Flaps option

 	  Quote: 	
		  Can't answer you questions but as long as it is possible to retrofit


	


this change just go fly and wait until winter to make the change.



Ron Lee



do not archive

flyrv6(at)bryantechnology
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 10:21 am Post subject: Electric Flaps option

Sam,

  

 Pictures are worth a lot.  Thanks for directing me there.  The one thing I notice is the flap tube is now mounted on the back side the side mounts.  Does this require any reworking of the mount area?  Also is the modified weldment the same thing as the weldment if purchased from Vans?

  

 Thanks for the help.

  

 Tim 

  

 [i]----

recapen(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 10:58 am Post subject: Electric Flaps option

Tim,



You should be able to use the switch if you're using electric flaps - there's a part that attaches to the flap motor.

I don't know about using a manula actuator for electric operation...I do remember that I bought my QB with elec flaps and there were a few parts that stick out forward into the 'armrest' area.  I'll try to remember my elec flap instructions this weekend and zap them to you so you can see what you're getting into.



I agree with Sam do it now - I would also suggest looking at how it operates to determine what impact it will have on your armrest.  IMHO it's easier to get an elec flap weldment than search out a welder - although I'll have to do that for my mod regardless.



Ralph

--

sbuc(at)hiwaay.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:42 am Post subject: Electric Flaps option

Tim Bryan wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Sam,

 

 

 

 Pictures are worth a lot.  Thanks for directing me there.  The one

 thing I notice is the flap tube is now mounted on the back side the

 side mounts. Does this require any reworking of the mount area?  Also

 is the modified weldment the same thing as the weldment if purchased

 from Vans?


	




Tim, it's been several years since I did the mod so some of the details 

have escaped me. I don't recall anything more than just moving the tube 

blocks to the backside of the bulkhead. Seems I used the same bolt holes.



The modified torque tube will end up being the same as a new electric 

tube. The entire process is well documented in the instructions that 

come with the kit and the welding required is simple, just a matter of 

welding on new ends for the rod end bearings after you shorten the arms.



My hangar-mate has electric flaps in his RV-6A and also has an armrest. 

Seems to me the only reason some might move the motor to the side of the 

plane is so the storage compartment in the armrest could be bigger. I 

considered putting the motor on the side but decided it wasn't worth the 

effort of modding the mod.  



Sam Buchanan

flyrv6(at)bryantechnology
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:27 pm Post subject: Electric Flaps option

Hi Sam,

  

 Do Not Archive

  

 I agree with you after looking at your pictures it appears there is room for an armrest.  Mostly it isn't for storage for my purpose but a place to rest my arm while using the quadrant.   Now is a good time for me besides the extra time since the flaps are currently off, and the handle comes easily out.

  

 Thanks for your help

 Tim

  

 [i]----

FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 5:12 pm Post subject: Electric Flaps option

In a message dated 8/18/06 12:25:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 

flyrv6(at)bryantechnology.com writes:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I would like to eventually after flying have

  a arm rest in the center. 

=======================================
	


Tim:



The simple answer is DO NOT INSTAL A CENTER ARM REST!



1 - There is not enough room.

2 - It will be in the way when you Need to work under the panel ... And you 

WILL need to work under the panel.

3 - Unless you and your copilot are 100 Lbs each There is not enough room.  

Yo already will be bumping elbows and maybe even butts.

4 - The RV-6 does not need an arm rest, your legs are your arm rests.

5 - I have always preferred MANUAL FLAPS but both RV-6's I fly have electric 

flaps.  They are acceptable.  But, I still prefer Manual.  

Why?  I lost all electric and could not deploy the flaps.  

When was the last time you practiced a ZERO FLAP landing?  

Did you hit the numbers?  

How long did it take you to stop?  

I read the spec sheet too and seen what they say about how SLOW the stall 

speed is.  I was also taught by a CFII/ATP that has 2000 Hours in RV-6's.  His 

answer was: "You want to fly 5 Kts over Stall on approach?  Not with Me or My 

Plane!  80 Kts over the fence!"

The RV-6 is not the most stable of planes at slow speeds and the flaps do 

make it MUCH better on the final approach.

And before you guys light your flame throwers.  I have about 250 Hours in 

RV-6's, just don't expect them to fly like a C-150.  My comments are REAL and you 

have to keep it real if you don't want to bend any metal.



Barry

"Chop'd Liver"



"Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third 

time." 

Yamashiada

n5lp(at)warpdriveonline.c
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 5:47 pm Post subject: Electric Flaps option

On Aug 18, 2006, at 7:11 PM, FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   .  I was also taught by a CFII/ATP that has 2000 Hours in RV-6's.  His

 answer was: "You want to fly 5 Kts over Stall on approach?  Not  

 with Me or My

 Plane!  80 Kts over the fence!"


	


Just goes to show that it doesn't take a whole lot of sense to become  

a CFII/ATP.  I don't believe in 5 kts over stall either, but 80 knots  

over the fence is unsafe and stupid.



do not archive



Larry Pardue

Carlsbad, NM



RV-6 N441LP Flying

http://n5lp.net

rv9jim(at)juno.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 6:07 pm Post subject: Electric Flaps option

Hi Tim,

        The electric flaps are the way to go.  I would use

"aircraftextras.com" flap controller if I was to do it again.  I have the

three position system from Van's but it is a locked in system.  The other

system is variable and you can set it where you want and how you want.  I

spent a bit of time getting the fixed system to be "right".  I would have

liked a simpler system and I think aircraft extras has that option.  



Jim Nelson

dale1rv6(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 6:20 pm Post subject: Electric Flaps option

You might consider a small removable console. This works pretty well for us 

(175 lbs and 120 lbs). picture attached. Do not archive.

Dale



---

100-0001_IMG_(Medium).JPG

Description:

Filesize:

57.62 KB

Viewed:

262 Time(s)

khorton01(at)rogers.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 6:25 pm Post subject: Electric Flaps option

On 18 Aug 2006, at 21:46, Larry Pardue wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 On Aug 18, 2006, at 7:11 PM, FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com wrote:

> .  I was also taught by a CFII/ATP that has 2000 Hours in RV-6's.   

> His

> answer was: "You want to fly 5 Kts over Stall on approach?  Not  

> with Me or My

> Plane!  80 Kts over the fence!"

 I don't believe in 5 kts over stall either, but 80 knots over the  

 fence is unsafe and stupid.

 do not archive

Let's keep in mind that every aircraft has different airspeed system  

errors.  ASI instrument errors differ, and sometimes they can be  

quite large (I've seen reports of ASIs with 10 mph instrument  

errors).  And, many builders install something other than Van's  

static ports, which can affect the static system errors, producing  

several knots of airspeed error.  Static and pitot system leaks may  

also affect airspeed system accuracy.  Thus, 80 kt IAS in one  

person's aircraft might be exactly the same CAS as 70 kt IAS in  

someone else's aircraft.

Optimum indicated airspeeds for various phases of flight need to be  

determined by each builder, and are specific to that aircraft.

Kevin Horton

Ottawa, Canada

ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 6:34 pm Post subject: Electric Flaps option

FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

In a message dated 8/18/06 12:25:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 

flyrv6(at)bryantechnology.com writes:

>I would like to eventually after flying have

> a arm rest in the center. 

>    

>

=======================================

Tim:

The simple answer is DO NOT INSTAL A CENTER ARM REST!

1 - There is not enough room.

2 - It will be in the way when you Need to work under the panel ... And you 

WILL need to work under the panel.

3 - Unless you and your copilot are 100 Lbs each There is not enough room.  

Yo already will be bumping elbows and maybe even butts.

4 - The RV-6 does not need an arm rest, your legs are your arm rests.

5 - I have always preferred MANUAL FLAPS but both RV-6's I fly have electric 

flaps.  They are acceptable.  But, I still prefer Manual.  

Why?  I lost all electric and could not deploy the flaps.  

When was the last time you practiced a ZERO FLAP landing?  

Did you hit the numbers?  

How long did it take you to stop?  

I read the spec sheet too and seen what they say about how SLOW the stall 

speed is.  I was also taught by a CFII/ATP that has 2000 Hours in RV-6's.  His 

answer was: "You want to fly 5 Kts over Stall on approach?  Not with Me or My 

Plane!  80 Kts over the fence!"

The RV-6 is not the most stable of planes at slow speeds and the flaps do 

make it MUCH better on the final approach.

And before you guys light your flame throwers.  I have about 250 Hours in 

RV-6's, just don't expect them to fly like a C-150.  My comments are REAL and you 

have to keep it real if you don't want to bend any metal.

And practicing '80 kts over the fence', don't expect to live if you have 

an engine failure & have to land off-airport.

Please name the cfii so we'll know who to avoid.

sbuc(at)hiwaay.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 6:41 pm Post subject: Electric Flaps option

FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 In a message dated 8/18/06 12:25:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 

 flyrv6(at)bryantechnology.com writes:

> I would like to eventually after flying have

>  a arm rest in the center. 

 =======================================

 Tim:

 The simple answer is DO NOT INSTAL A CENTER ARM REST!

Well....don't know how simple my answers will be but I'll interject some 

differing opinions.

 	  Quote: 	
		   1 - There is not enough room.

Guess this is sorta subjective. The several armrests I have seen in RV's 

are only about three inches wide (the width of the space between seat 

cushions, and the pilots I polled seemed quite happy with the armrests. 

My hangarmate put an armrest in his RV-6A and its still there after ~800 

flight hours.

 	  Quote: 	
		   2 - It will be in the way when you Need to work under the panel ... And you 

 WILL need to work under the panel.

This situation is resolved by making the armrest easily removable.

 	  Quote: 	
		   3 - Unless you and your copilot are 100 Lbs each There is not enough room.  

 Yo already will be bumping elbows and maybe even butts.

One rationalization I have heard for the armrest to *prevent* bumping 

posteriors. 

 	  Quote: 	
		   4 - The RV-6 does not need an arm rest, your legs are your arm rests.

Tim wants an armrest because he has a throttle quadrant and wants to 

brace his arm. Even though I don't have an armrest in my plane, if I 

didn't have the cupholders between the seats I might have an armrest 

with a little map pocket in it.

 	  Quote: 	
		   5 - I have always preferred MANUAL FLAPS but both RV-6's I fly have electric 

 flaps.  They are acceptable.  But, I still prefer Manual.  

Some folks do.

 	  Quote: 	
		   Why?  I lost all electric and could not deploy the flaps.  

 When was the last time you practiced a ZERO FLAP landing?  

Quite often, matter of fact.

 	  Quote: 	
		   Did you hit the numbers?  

Usually no, but then I hardly ever do hit the numbers.  

 	  Quote: 	
		   How long did it take you to stop?  

Kinda a moot point on a 6000' runway. But I guess if the engine stopped 

running and the battery fell out of the plane just before a forced 

landing in a little cow pasture, I would probably be wishing I had 

manual flaps. But I find electric flaps to be quite satisfactory for the 

frequent short, grass field landings I make. By the way, the flaps on my 

plane are connected with a fused lead directly to the battery so the 

flaps are available even if the master has been turned off.

 	  Quote: 	
		   I read the spec sheet too and seen what they say about how SLOW the stall 

 speed is.  I was also taught by a CFII/ATP that has 2000 Hours in RV-6's.  His 

 answer was: "You want to fly 5 Kts over Stall on approach?  Not with Me or My 

 Plane!  80 Kts over the fence!"

Speaking of hitting the numbers or stopping in a short distance, it just 

ain't gonna happen if you try landing an RV-6 after arriving at the 

runway carrying 80 kts....

 	  Quote: 	
		   The RV-6 is not the most stable of planes at slow speeds and the flaps do 

 make it MUCH better on the final approach.

Hmmmmm, guess this one will depend on pilot experience and preferences, too.

 	  Quote: 	
		   And before you guys light your flame throwers.  I have about 250 Hours in 

 RV-6's, just don't expect them to fly like a C-150.  My comments are REAL and you 

 have to keep it real if you don't want to bend any metal.

I certainly have no intentions of tossing any flames, just offering a 

different viewpoint. Its been so long since I flew a C150 I've forgotten 

how they fly, but after nearly 800 hrs in my RV-6, I do have some 

opinions on how *my* particular plane lands at various speeds and 

configurations. Since my plane stalls at ~50kts indicated (but I'm 

usually looking more at the LRI), I find "coming over the fence" at 

70kts with the speed steadily decreasing to 55-60kts at touchdown works 

very nicely when the wind isn't gusting. Any faster and the plane won't 

three-point without skipping and a wheel landing is more apt to bounce 

as well. When the tail drops and the wing incidence goes positive any 

faster than 65 kts, the stubby little wings think they are being called 

upon to fly!

Sam Buchanan

n5lp(at)warpdriveonline.c
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 7:04 pm Post subject: Electric Flaps option

On Aug 18, 2006, at 8:24 PM, Kevin Horton wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 On 18 Aug 2006, at 21:46, Larry Pardue wrote:

> 

> <n5lp(at)warpdriveonline.com>

>

> On Aug 18, 2006, at 7:11 PM, FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com wrote:

>

>> .  I was also taught by a CFII/ATP that has 2000 Hours in  

>> RV-6's.  His

>> answer was: "You want to fly 5 Kts over Stall on approach?  Not  

>> with Me or My

>> Plane!  80 Kts over the fence!"

>

> I don't believe in 5 kts over stall either, but 80 knots over the  

> fence is unsafe and stupid.

>

> do not archive

 Let's keep in mind that every aircraft has different airspeed  

 system errors.  ASI instrument errors differ, and sometimes they  

 can be quite large (I've seen reports of ASIs with 10 mph  

 instrument errors).  And, many builders install something other  

 than Van's static ports, which can affect the static system errors,  

 producing several knots of airspeed error.  Static and pitot system  

 leaks may also affect airspeed system accuracy.  Thus, 80 kt IAS in  

 one person's aircraft might be exactly the same CAS as 70 kt IAS in  

 someone else's aircraft.

 Optimum indicated airspeeds for various phases of flight need to be  

 determined by each builder, and are specific to that aircraft.

 Kevin Horton

 Ottawa, Canada

But it sounds like this guy has a general rule not related to the  

individual airplane.

Larry

Doug Gray

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 112
Location: Sydney, Australia

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 7:09 pm Post subject: Electric Flaps option

My kit was delivered with manual flap option and during the building I

have converted it to electric.  Modifying the torque tube assembly was

no big deal.  Just cut the three tubes and have a welder fit the three

steel 'brackets'  in place.  



It seemed a bit stupid to scrap the entire manual weldment for the sake

of three welds.  



Of course you do need to find a capable aircraft welder to do the job.

I have found several jobs that needed to be done along the way so it is

good to know who to turn to.



BTW are your rudder pedals modified according to the Vans AD? If not

then get these welded at the same time.



Doug Gray

On Fri, 2006-08-18 at 22:06 -0400, James H Nelson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Hi Tim,

         The electric flaps are the way to go.  I would use

 "aircraftextras.com" flap controller if I was to do it again.  I have the

 three position system from Van's but it is a locked in system.  The other

 system is variable and you can set it where you want and how you want.  I

 spent a bit of time getting the fixed system to be "right".  I would have

 liked a simpler system and I think aircraft extras has that option.  

 

 Jim Nelson

Doug Gray

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 112
Location: Sydney, Australia

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 7:38 pm Post subject: Electric Flaps option

 	  Quote: 	
		   And practicing '80 kts over the fence', don't expect to live if you have 

 an engine failure & have to land off-airport.

 

 Please name the cfii so we'll know who to avoid. 


	


At 80kts over the fence it's a wonder you can hit the numbers on the far

end of the runway.  Perhaps the fence is a mile downwind.



I thought the rule of thumb was approach safety speed is 1.3 times stall

IAS in the landing configuration.  I guess it is possible that the ASI

errors are so bad that IAS at flapless stall is >60kts.



Doug Gray

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> RV-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page 1, 2 Next
Page 1 of 2

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum