Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - Ergonomics (was: Flap switches/relay wiring)

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Ergonomics (was: Flap switches/relay wiring)
Goto page 1, 2 Next

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> AeroElectric-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:35 pm Post subject: Ergonomics (was: Flap switches/relay wiring)

A lot of people seem to want to move functions onto their stick or their

throttle. I would counsel some thought about how you use that function

before you rush to put it on your stick.



The first question is; how much do you use that function? One of the

popular functions to put on the stick seems to be the IDENT function of

the transponder. How often does ATC ask you to squawk IDENT? Not very

often. How hard is it to reach over and press the ident button on the

xpdr? Probably not too hard. An IDENT button on your stick or yoke

requires you do add wiring and a switch. How much is that likely to gain

you in terms of ease of use? I bet that the total amount of effort

required to push the IDENT button every time ATC asks you for the life

of your airplane is less than the time it will take you to wire the

switch. Not a great return on investment.



Now, about the flaps. Again, this is not something you are going to be

using over and over again in one flight. You are going to use it once or

twice per flight. Again, no big impact to have to move your hand to a

flap switch on the panel or near your throttle.



Likewise something like that radio active/standby frequency toggle.

Since you have to put your hand up to the radio to change the frequency

anyway, you may as well press the button to toggle between active and

standby.



So think about the kinds of things you use over and over again in

flight. The short list that comes to mind:



1. radio PTT

2. intercom PTT

3. speed brakes

4. trim

5. weapons select

6. weapons release



There just isn't a whole lot more you are going to use enough to justify

putting it on the stick or throttle so maybe you just want to keep it

simple.



Brian

_________________
Brian Lloyd
brian-yak at lloyd dot com
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

chaztuna(at)adelphia.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:40 pm Post subject: Ergonomics (was: Flap switches/relay wiring)

---- Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com> wrote: 

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 A lot of people seem to want to move functions onto their stick or their

 throttle. I would counsel some thought about how you use that function

 before you rush to put it on your stick.

 

 The first question is; how much do you use that function? One of the

 popular functions to put on the stick seems to be the IDENT function of

 the transponder. How often does ATC ask you to squawk IDENT? Not very

 often. How hard is it to reach over and press the ident button on the

 xpdr? Probably not too hard. An IDENT button on your stick or yoke

 requires you do add wiring and a switch. How much is that likely to gain

 you in terms of ease of use? I bet that the total amount of effort

 required to push the IDENT button every time ATC asks you for the life

 of your airplane is less than the time it will take you to wire the

 switch. Not a great return on investment.

 

 Now, about the flaps. Again, this is not something you are going to be

 using over and over again in one flight. You are going to use it once or

 twice per flight. Again, no big impact to have to move your hand to a

 flap switch on the panel or near your throttle.

 

 Likewise something like that radio active/standby frequency toggle.

 Since you have to put your hand up to the radio to change the frequency

 anyway, you may as well press the button to toggle between active and

 standby.

 

 So think about the kinds of things you use over and over again in

 flight. The short list that comes to mind:

 

 1. radio PTT

 2. intercom PTT

 3. speed brakes

 4. trim

 5. weapons select

 6. weapons release

 

 There just isn't a whole lot more you are going to use enough to justify

 putting it on the stick or throttle so maybe you just want to keep it

 simple.

 

 Brian


	


Listers,

 I suggest that having radio station Flip/Flop and Station Scan switch ( a single pole double throw momentary switch) is a very useful item to have on the stick. If the radio stack is located away from the co-pilot, it is a necessity for them.

Charlie Kuss

chaztuna(at)adelphia.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:40 pm Post subject: Ergonomics (was: Flap switches/relay wiring)

---- Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com> wrote: 

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 A lot of people seem to want to move functions onto their stick or their

 throttle. I would counsel some thought about how you use that function

 before you rush to put it on your stick.

 

 The first question is; how much do you use that function? One of the

 popular functions to put on the stick seems to be the IDENT function of

 the transponder. How often does ATC ask you to squawk IDENT? Not very

 often. How hard is it to reach over and press the ident button on the

 xpdr? Probably not too hard. An IDENT button on your stick or yoke

 requires you do add wiring and a switch. How much is that likely to gain

 you in terms of ease of use? I bet that the total amount of effort

 required to push the IDENT button every time ATC asks you for the life

 of your airplane is less than the time it will take you to wire the

 switch. Not a great return on investment.

 

 Now, about the flaps. Again, this is not something you are going to be

 using over and over again in one flight. You are going to use it once or

 twice per flight. Again, no big impact to have to move your hand to a

 flap switch on the panel or near your throttle.

 

 Likewise something like that radio active/standby frequency toggle.

 Since you have to put your hand up to the radio to change the frequency

 anyway, you may as well press the button to toggle between active and

 standby.

 

 So think about the kinds of things you use over and over again in

 flight. The short list that comes to mind:

 

 1. radio PTT

 2. intercom PTT

 3. speed brakes

 4. trim

 5. weapons select

 6. weapons release

 

 There just isn't a whole lot more you are going to use enough to justify

 putting it on the stick or throttle so maybe you just want to keep it

 simple.

 

 Brian


	


Listers,

 I suggest that having radio station Flip/Flop and Station Scan switch ( a single pole double throw momentary switch) is a very useful item to have on the stick. If the radio stack is located away from the co-pilot, it is a necessity for them.

Charlie Kuss

peter(at)sportingaero.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:42 pm Post subject: Ergonomics (was: Flap switches/relay wiring)

 	  Quote: 	
		  So think about the kinds of things you use over and over again in

flight. The short list that comes to mind:



1. radio PTT

2. intercom PTT

3. speed brakes

4. trim

5. weapons select

6. weapons release


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  There just isn't a whole lot more you are going to use enough to

justify
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  putting it on the stick or throttle so maybe you just want to keep it

simple.


	


Well, if we're going off on this tack I would add



-Master mode select (air-to-ground, air-to-air, nav, approach)

-AAM cage/uncage

-Waypoint step up

-Weapon aiming sensor select

-Sensor slew/zoom/track/scan

-Autopilot/stabs disconnect

-Chaff/flare release 



What's appropriate to small airplanes (as well as those Brian

mentioned)?



Autopilot disconnect

Possibly waypoint step up if your GPS/EFIS allows



Where's the flap switch? On the panel in front of the throttle

Radio tune/flip flop? On the up front controller (just below the HUD)

Waypoint insert/select? Up front controller



So for those actions that are done a lot (radio tune), where you have to

look in, put the box just below the glare shield so that you move your

eyes a minimum distance.



Might as well learn something from all those taxpayer $$$!



BTW some 2 seat Pitts' had the PTT on the throttle - always seemed like

a good idea if you expect to have an autopilot in the right seat.



Pete

armywrights(at)adelphia.n
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:29 pm Post subject: Ergonomics (was: Flap switches/relay wiring)

Hear, hear!



Maybe add AP disconnect in lieu of the weapons switches....



Do not archive



Rob Wright



--

Bruce(at)glasair.org
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:12 pm Post subject: Ergonomics (was: Flap switches/relay wiring)

In my rather sedate Glasair III I have speed brakes, coolie hat trim

(aileron and elevator), CWS (control wheel steering for the AP), PTT,

Xponder Ident, and AP disconnect. The CP has duplicate switches but all

except PTT are disabled by a panel mounted transfer switch.



Bruce

www.glasair.org

 



--

Bill Denton

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 97
Location: Chicago, IL USA

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 4:24 am Post subject: Ergonomics (was: Flap switches/relay wiring)

Given that this started as a discussion of the hazards of having the flap

control mounted on the stick, wouldn't mounting the speed brake control on

the stick pose a similar hazard?

--

tgesele(at)optonline.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 5:41 am Post subject: Ergonomics (was: Flap switches/relay wiring)

Based on the normal crew I plan on having in my plane (wife and two young

daughters) - I'm planning on putting the pilot isolate switch for the

intercom on the stick grip.



It's what I've always dreamed of - a mute switch for the girls in my life...



please... do not archive

--

brian-av(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 5:42 am Post subject: Ergonomics (was: Flap switches/relay wiring)

On Aug 23, 2006, at 5:22 AM, Bill Denton wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <bdenton(at)bdenton.com>



 Given that this started as a discussion of the hazards of having  

 the flap

 control mounted on the stick, wouldn't mounting the speed brake  

 control on

 the stick pose a similar hazard?


	


IMHO, no. Speed brakes can be used at any speed without danger to the  

aircraft. Speed brakes don't produce a pitching moment nor do they  

change the capability of the structure to carry the load. If you  

inadvertently deploy the speed brakes in flight you can just feel  

stupid and laugh it off. If you inadvertently deploy the speed brakes  

on final you will increase the rate of descent but you could deal  

with that by increasing thrust (or retracting them again).



No, I don't see the accidental deployment of speed brakes and the  

accidental deployment of flaps in the same category.

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian HYPHEN av AT lloyd DOT com    Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

jpleasants(at)bellsouth.n
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:02 am Post subject: Ergonomics (was: Flap switches/relay wiring)

---

FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:41 am Post subject: Ergonomics (was: Flap switches/relay wiring)

In a message dated 8/23/06 11:08:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 

jpleasants(at)bellsouth.net writes:



 	  Quote: 	
		   So, has anyone developed an after-market for sidewinder/rocket rails, or

  MERs/TERs for an RV?  And, we will need a gunsight.

  

  DO NOT ARCHIVE

  

  Jim Pleasants

======================
	


I have hard points for an AA-5.

mlas(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:51 am Post subject: Ergonomics (was: Flap switches/relay wiring)

Or speed brakes...



--

Bruce(at)glasair.org
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 1:40 am Post subject: Ergonomics (was: Flap switches/relay wiring)

My speed brake deployment has been tested to Vne. Accendital deployment only

causes the airplane to slow down.



Bruce

www.glasair.org

 



--

khorton01(at)rogers.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 2:38 am Post subject: Ergonomics (was: Flap switches/relay wiring)

What happens if there is an accidental deployment during the landing  

flare?



Kevin Horton



On 23 Aug 2006, at 09:05, Bruce Gray wrote:



[quote] 

 <Bruce(at)glasair.org>



 My speed brake deployment has been tested to Vne. Accendital  

 deployment only

 causes the airplane to slow down.



 Bruce

 www.glasair.org

 --

Bill Denton

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 97
Location: Chicago, IL USA

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 4:15 am Post subject: Ergonomics (was: Flap switches/relay wiring)

I was thinking more in terms of the other end of the spectrum...



What would happen if the speed brakes were accidentally deployed on short

final?



--

Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 4:32 am Post subject: Ergonomics (was: Flap switches/relay wiring)

Bill Denton a écrit :

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I was thinking more in terms of the other end of the spectrum...



 What would happen if the speed brakes were accidentally deployed on short

 final?



   


	


The end result would be "interesting" 



Fighters have speed brakes on the throttle, because they need it for 

formation flying, in-flight refuelling, etc. Their jet engines do not 

allow for quick speed reduction.

On other types, airliners or gliders, the speed brakes do have a 

dedicated and (hopefully) unmistakeable lever.



On a piston single, unless the owner is a nostalgic ex-fighter pilot, is 

a throttle switch really desirable ? Piston engines and props allow for 

quick speed reduction for formation flying, for instance.

Any time you add a switch on the stick or throttle, provision must be 

made to avoid inadvertent actuation.



I know of at least one clever guy who installed the starter switch on 

the throttle...



Regards,

Gilles Thesee

Grenoble, France

http://contrails.free.fr

George W Braly

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 15

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 4:58 am Post subject: Ergonomics (was: Flap switches/relay wiring)

We have installed several dozen sets of speed brakes on aircraft as an

option with the turbo normalizing systems for the Bonanzas.



There have been lots of variations in the locations of the activation

switches.



I have flown all of these different locations - - from the yoke to the

panel.



My thoughts:



Don't put anything on the stick that you will normally use once or twice

during each flight.  That is a mistake and generates more problems.



Things that will be used multiple times - -  trim, mic button, are the

two most important - - are appropriate.



Regards,  George



--

mprather(at)spro.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 6:21 am Post subject: Ergonomics (was: Flap switches/relay wiring)

Speed brakes are usually very small drag producers that provide energy

control while at high indicated airspeeds.  Once slowed to a low airspeed,

speed brakes represent a very small portion of airframe drag.  Sometimes,

takeoff performance isn't even particularly degraded with the brakes

extended.

Regards,



Matt-



[quote] 

 <bdenton(at)bdenton.com>



 I was thinking more in terms of the other end of the spectrum...



 What would happen if the speed brakes were accidentally deployed on short

 final?



 --

mprather(at)spro.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 6:35 am Post subject: Ergonomics (was: Flap switches/relay wiring)

Mr. Thesee,



I just posted another message.  Yours reminds me that I didn't mention a

few things...



Early (modern?) fighter jets often flew their final approach with speed

brakes at least partially extended.  This allowed them to carry nearly

full power on the engine while on approach.  If they had to abort an

approach, the speed brakes could be stowed much more quickly than climb

power could be attained from the jet.  The speed brakes were relatively

large, and not designed to be deployed at high airspeeds.



Gliders often have truly enormous speed brakes/spoilers which allow steep

approaches to be flown - drastically reducing their glide ratio.  All of

the ones I have seen are mechanically actuated by a large lever in the

cockpit.



The speed brakes that I was thinking of are like the Precise Flight units

commonly installed on higher performance piston singles like Mooney's,

Lancairs, Glassairs, Bonanzas and Cessna 210's.  These are electrically

actuated.  Mounting the control switch either near/on the throttle or on

the control wheel/stick might make the most sense.  These units are

approved for airspeeds up to Vne.



http://preciseflight.com/viewpage.php?pID=10

Regards,



Matt-

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-grenoble.fr>



 Bill Denton a écrit :

> 

> <bdenton(at)bdenton.com>

>

> I was thinking more in terms of the other end of the spectrum...

>

> What would happen if the speed brakes were accidentally deployed on

> short

> final?



 The end result would be "interesting" 



 Fighters have speed brakes on the throttle, because they need it for

 formation flying, in-flight refuelling, etc. Their jet engines do not

 allow for quick speed reduction.

 On other types, airliners or gliders, the speed brakes do have a

 dedicated and (hopefully) unmistakeable lever.



 On a piston single, unless the owner is a nostalgic ex-fighter pilot, is

 a throttle switch really desirable ? Piston engines and props allow for

 quick speed reduction for formation flying, for instance.

 Any time you add a switch on the stick or throttle, provision must be

 made to avoid inadvertent actuation.



 I know of at least one clever guy who installed the starter switch on

 the throttle...



 Regards,

 Gilles Thesee

 Grenoble, France

 http://contrails.free.fr

Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 6:42 am Post subject: Ergonomics (was: Flap switches/relay wiring)

Matt and all,



 	  Quote: 	
		   Speed brakes are usually very small drag producers that provide energy

 control while at high indicated airspeeds.  Once slowed to a low airspeed,

 speed brakes represent a very small portion of airframe drag.  Sometimes,

 takeoff performance isn't even particularly degraded with the brakes

 extended.



   

Thanks for the info.
	


This type of speed brakes must be particular to some type of airplanes ? 

High drag but bigger engine ?

I'm flying sleek airplanes with low over all drag when flaps are up, so 

in my opinion, even you low drag brakes would make a difference with them.



Some slower airplanes with weak flap action, or even without flaps, 

resort to speed brakes to increase drag during approach.



Regards,

Gilles Thesee

Grenoble, France

http://contrails.free.fr

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> AeroElectric-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page 1, 2 Next
Page 1 of 2

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum