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HawkerPilot2015

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 503

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:11 pm Post subject: Kimball Clean Kit

Anyone have any experience with Kimballs Scavenge Pump and Shut-Off valve?



If so, pass along some info please!



T

KJKimball(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:15 pm Post subject: Kimball Clean Kit

Tim,

  

 I'm pretty familiar with the stuff.  What questions do you have?

  

 Sincerely,



Kevin Kimball, VP Engineering

Jim  Kimball Enterprises, Inc.

PO Box 849, 5354 Cemetery Rd.

Zellwood, FL  32798

407-889-3451 phone

407-889-7168 fax

www.jimkimballenterprises.com

www.pittsmodel12.com



  [quote][b]

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:39 pm Post subject: Kimball Clean Kit

I have seen several versions of the clean kit to include Les Crowder's

original version, the prototype of which was on my 50.  I think I have

seen Kevin's version too, but I am not totally sure.  All of them used

an electric pump to pump the oil out of the lower sump and back into the

main oil tank.  Les Crowder's version also used special valve covers

with rubber hoses that allowed all the oil in the valve covers to flow

back down into the sump as well.  All of these systems worked extremely

well, but Les Crowder's version added so many hoses and clamps that it

just scared the "B'Jesus" out of me due to the possibility of a clamp

letting go and oil going everywhere.....on the bottom of the aircraft

where I could not see.  



That said, Kevin's oil shut off valve is the one real answer that works

like a dream.  I do not have it on my aircraft but I have seen it on

three others with M-14's and it is the "real deal".  This valve is

installed just downstream on the main oil feed.  Shutting it off

directly after flight means that NO oil is going to run down into the

engine through the oil pump ball check valve, and NO oil is going to end

up causing a hyd. lock on your lower cylinders.  



If you also scavenge your engine properly before shutdown, it is my

opinion that you can also live without the electric oil scavenge pump

itself, but I would defer to more expert opinions in that regard. 



Again, the oil tank shutoff valve is the real solution, but of course it

comes with a danger.  If you forget to turn it on before starting... Bye

bye engine.  Kevin's valve has a built in electric interrupt switch that

you can use to interrupt your start system, but nothing is foolproof.  



I am not sure if Kevin's system includes the hose fittings or not....

But regardless his system is the one I would want.  



Mark Bitterlich 

N50YK







--

HawkerPilot2015

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 503

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:12 pm Post subject: Re: Kimball Clean Kit

 	  Quote: 	
		  Tim,

  

 I'm pretty familiar with the stuff.  What questions do you have?

  

 Sincerely,



Kevin Kimball, VP Engineering

Jim  Kimball Enterprises, Inc.

PO Box 849, 5354 Cemetery Rd.

Zellwood, FL  32798

407-889-3451 phone

407-889-7168 fax

www.jimkimballenterprises.com

www.pittsmodel12.com

	


Kevin,



I just shot an email out looking for some info on the setup out to your company email address. Just looking for an idea of how it works, issues (such as those Mark mentioned..specifically failures), ease of installation, things of that nature. 



I know it may be another point of failure but I am willing to take a closer look. 



Thanks for the post Mark.

david(at)mcgirt.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 4:25 am Post subject: Kimball Clean Kit

Your website does not have anything, so I guess the basics would be a question I would have, how much for a oil shutoff system for the M14? How much for the add on scavenger system?  In my case, I have a Yak52TW and we already have a electric start switch, that could be used with your system for interruption if the oil shutoff is still on.  Just trying to understand the order of magnitude of the costs..  

   

David  

   

   

         

  

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of KJKimball(at)aol.com

 Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 10:15 PM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Kimball Clean Kit  

  

     

Tim,  

    

   

    

I'm pretty familiar with the stuff.  What questions do you have?  

    

   

    

Sincerely,

 

 Kevin Kimball, VP Engineering

 Jim Kimball Enterprises, Inc.

 PO Box 849, 5354 Cemetery Rd.

 Zellwood, FL  32798

 407-889-3451 phone

 407-889-7168 fax

 www.jimkimballenterprises.com

 www.pittsmodel12.com  

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       [quote][b]

KJKimball(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 3:13 am Post subject: Kimball Clean Kit

David,

  

 Here is a link to the page on our website which shows the various items we  have developed and offer for the M14 engine.  All these items were  originally developed for the Pitts model 12.  As you can see, the page is  listed as the moose support page because we offer these items to Murphy Moose  builders as well.  Yes, you can use the oil safety switch on an electric  start engine to prevent starting without the oil valve fully open.

  

 moose  support page 

  

 Sincerely,



Kevin Kimball, VP Engineering

Jim  Kimball Enterprises, Inc.

PO Box 849, 5354 Cemetery Rd.

Zellwood, FL  32798

407-889-3451 phone

407-889-7168 fax

www.jimkimballenterprises.com

www.pittsmodel12.com



  [quote][b]

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:21 pm Post subject: Kimball Clean Kit

And the oil  safety valve will work perfectly UNLESS: 

  

 1.  You are out of air and decide to  prop the engine,  which sooner or later all of us will do.   

 2.  Use the manual selector valve handle on the  start solanoid.  

  

 Please do not misunderstand me.  I  think Kevin's product is noteworthy and I will eventually buy one myself and  install it.  PLUS, the current installation methods include safety designs  to prevent engine damage/loss, (such as the mentioned oil safety switch)   but they are not fool-proof.  

  

 The ONLY method I can think of that would be  100% effective would be to tie the MAG P-Leads into this switch, would would  automatically ground them if the oil valve was closed, thus totally preventing  engine start... and of course that adds the potential of other things going  wrong.  

  

 Just being the Devil's Advocate here... as I  said, I think the valve is great.  

  

 Mark Bitterlich

 N50YK

  

 

  



   From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of  KJKimball(at)aol.com

Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 7:13

To:  yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Kimball Clean  Kit

 

 David,

  

 Here is a link to the page on our website which shows the various items we  have developed and offer for the M14 engine.  All these items were  originally developed for the Pitts model 12.  As you can see, the page is  listed as the moose support page because we offer these items to Murphy Moose  builders as well.  Yes, you can use the oil safety switch on an electric  start engine to prevent starting without the oil valve fully open.

  

 moose  support page 

  

 Sincerely,



Kevin Kimball, VP  Engineering

Jim Kimball Enterprises, Inc.

PO Box 849, 5354 Cemetery  Rd.

Zellwood, FL 32798

407-889-3451 phone

407-889-7168 fax

www.jimkimballenterprises.com

www.pittsmodel12.com



[quote]



.com/Navigator?Yak-List



[b]

KJKimball(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 3:46 pm Post subject: Kimball Clean Kit

Mark,

  

 You are correct to point out a lack of 100% fool proof systems in  airplanes.  I am not aware of a single 100% fool proof system of any kind  in an airplane including Yaks and Pitts Model 12s.  Why?  Pilots are  human and despite the best efforts of designers and component developers, these  flawed human pilots still find ways to misuse, not use, and abuse systems.�  

  

 Your 2 bulleted points are valid but it should be noted that an oil shut  off valve does not eliminate the oil pressure gauge which should be checked at  engine start with or without a clean kit system being installed.  Airplanes  with throttle switches, buzzers, barber poles, etc., still land gear up.

  

 I am not aware of any M14 engine loss related to an oil shut off valve and  clean kit, ours or others.  Maybe someone has specific data on this to  share.  I am aware of many engine losses due to hydraulic lock.

  

 The only real method we have today is the use of check lists and forcing  the pilot to be a creature of trained habit in using various aircraft  systems.  I suppose this will have to do until airplanes have full  cognitive reasoning so that they will automatically latch the door or canopy  properly, set the power, retract and extend the gear at the proper times, handle  the flaps, switch fuel tanks, fill the tanks, make sure the gas and oil caps are  secure, the pilot cover is off and the airplane is clear of the hangar door  before the door is lowered.  Of course, then there is no need for the  pilot, right?

  

 We can't make everything perfect....only progressively less bad with each  iteration.  Besides, once we humans get everything in the world absolutely  correct, there would be no work for engineers, pilots, politicians, doctors,  etc.  Then what will I do to earn grocery money?  Airplanes will most  likely be illegal by then anyway....

  

 Shut off valves and scavenge systems do make the M14 engine more user  friendly and less messy.  However, they have to be used properly in order  to be safe.

  

 Sincerely,



Kevin Kimball, VP Engineering

Jim  Kimball Enterprises, Inc.

PO Box 849, 5354 Cemetery Rd.

Zellwood, FL  32798

407-889-3451 phone

407-889-7168 fax

www.jimkimballenterprises.com

www.pittsmodel12.com



  [quote][b]

eyeballs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 3:59 pm Post subject: Kimball Clean Kit

[quote] ---

dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 4:34 pm Post subject: Kimball Clean Kit

The oil pressure relief valve in the oil pump and the spring that applies  the pressure on the valve are the primary problem with excessive oil  drain.    I have seen the spring bent and also  broken.  Both caused the valve not to seat.  I have pulled the  valve out, polished out the groove, reinstalled it and stopped  the excessive oil drain.  Fix the pressure relief valve and/or  the spring and you will basically eliminate the problem.

 Dennis

 [quote]   ---

pa3arw(at)euronet.nl
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 3:00 am Post subject: Kimball Clean Kit

Dennis,  

   

Where can I find that relief valve?? I know it’s on the oil pump but do you have a picture or something??? Since about the last 100 hour check up we have this problem….it looks like it’s worth looking in to…  

   

Hans  

         

  

Van: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] Namens A. Dennis Savarese

 Verzonden: zaterdag 26 augustus 2006 2:34

 Aan: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Onderwerp: Re: Kimball Clean Kit  

  

     

The oil pressure relief valve in the oil pump and the spring that applies the pressure on the valve are the primary problem with excessive oil drain.    I have seen the spring bent and also broken.  Both caused the valve not to seat.  I have pulled the valve out, polished out the groove, reinstalled it and stopped the excessive oil drain.  Fix the pressure relief valve and/or the spring and you will basically eliminate the problem.  

    

Dennis  

  [quote]    

---

dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 4:19 am Post subject: Kimball Clean Kit

It's under the cap where the oil pressure adjustment screw is  on the right side of the oil pump.  The adjustment screw applies the  pressure to the spring that pushes on the pressure relief valve.  Remove  the cap on the right side of the oil pump.  Before you remove the adjuster  screw etc., rotate the screw counterclockwise and count the number of turns  until it comes out.  That way you'll have a starting point to resetting the  oil pressure.  Loosen and remove the large nut and pull out the spring and  valve.  Check the spring carefully.  If it is bent  in  anyway, replace it because the bent spring will not allow the valve to seat  properly.  The valve itself will have a groove in it from where it seats  against the valve seat.  The valve seat is not like a normal valve seat  which mates perfectly to the valve.  It is nothing more than a machined  hole.  That is why there is a groove around the valve.  So don't try  polishing the seat.  Just make sure there is no buildup of any kind on the  seat and it feels smooth to the touch.

  

 You can polish the valve to remove the groove and reinstall  it.  If the spring is in tact, flip it 180 degrees and reassemble  everything except leave the cap off because you will have to adjust the oil  pressure.  Turn the screw in the number of turns you counted when you  removed it.  Then run the engine and reset the oil pressure to the desired  level.

 Dennis

  

 [quote]   ---

pa3arw(at)euronet.nl
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 6:42 am Post subject: Kimball Clean Kit

Thanks Dennis. I’ll give it a try..  

   

Hans  

         

  

Van: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] Namens A. Dennis Savarese

 Verzonden: zaterdag 26 augustus 2006 14:18

 Aan: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Onderwerp: Re: Kimball Clean Kit  

  

     

It's under the cap where the oil pressure adjustment screw is on the right side of the oil pump.  The adjustment screw applies the pressure to the spring that pushes on the pressure relief valve.  Remove the cap on the right side of the oil pump.  Before you remove the adjuster screw etc., rotate the screw counterclockwise and count the number of turns until it comes out.  That way you'll have a starting point to resetting the oil pressure.  Loosen and remove the large nut and pull out the spring and valve.  Check the spring carefully.  If it is bent  in anyway, replace it because the bent spring will not allow the valve to seat properly.  The valve itself will have a groove in it from where it seats against the valve seat.  The valve seat is not like a normal valve seat which mates perfectly to the valve.  It is nothing more than a machined hole.  That is why there is a groove around the valve.  So don't try polishing the seat.  Just make sure there is no buildup of any kind on the seat and it feels smooth to the touch.  

    

   

    

You can polish the valve to remove the groove and reinstall it.  If the spring is in tact, flip it 180 degrees and reassemble everything except leave the cap off because you will have to adjust the oil pressure.  Turn the screw in the number of turns you counted when you removed it.  Then run the engine and reset the oil pressure to the desired level.  

    

Dennis  

    

   

  [quote]    

---

david(at)mcgirt.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 4:43 pm Post subject: Kimball Clean Kit

Ok, if I wanted to order one of these springs, where would I find one?  

   

   

         

  

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis Savarese

 Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 8:18 AM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Kimball Clean Kit  

  

     

It's under the cap where the oil pressure adjustment screw is on the right side of the oil pump.  The adjustment screw applies the pressure to the spring that pushes on the pressure relief valve.  Remove the cap on the right side of the oil pump.  Before you remove the adjuster screw etc., rotate the screw counterclockwise and count the number of turns until it comes out.  That way you'll have a starting point to resetting the oil pressure.  Loosen and remove the large nut and pull out the spring and valve.  Check the spring carefully.  If it is bent  in anyway, replace it because the bent spring will not allow the valve to seat properly.  The valve itself will have a groove in it from where it seats against the valve seat.  The valve seat is not like a normal valve seat which mates perfectly to the valve.  It is nothing more than a machined hole.  That is why there is a groove around the valve.  So don't try polishing the seat.  Just make sure there is no buildup of any kind on the seat and it feels smooth to the touch.  

    

   

    

You can polish the valve to remove the groove and reinstall it.  If the spring is in tact, flip it 180 degrees and reassemble everything except leave the cap off because you will have to adjust the oil pressure.  Turn the screw in the number of turns you counted when you removed it.  Then run the engine and reset the oil pressure to the desired level.  

    

Dennis  

    

   

  [quote]    

---

dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 3:26 am Post subject: Kimball Clean Kit

I'd try either Doug Sapp first, Carl/Jill Hays or George/Cliff  Coy.  Lastly, try Robb Kent in the UK.

 Dennis

  

 [quote]   ---

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 1:18 pm Post subject: Kimball Clean Kit

I am just playing Devil's advocate here like  I said. 

  

 1.  The start solenoid can be activated  manually, and like I said before, someone might also  prop the aircraft.  

 2.  Not everyone can prop a YAK or Suke  with a qualified man in the cockpit.  I own a YAK-50 that was totaled that  proves that point.  It was run out of air, the man propped it, and it then  ran away and smashed into a hanger.  So .... respectfully... lights,  buzzers, sirens, or whistles.. nothing is 100% for sure and there are a lot of  wrecked airplanes to prove it.  

  

 All I am saying is that any system that  allows any possibility of an engine to start with a valve closed that shuts off  the oil totally to that engine, raises the possibility that it could actually  some day be started without that valve open causing the loss of that  engine.   Of course the opposite is also true... we have  an M-14 right here that threw a rod in flight due to it being cranked with  a hyd lock condition that could have been prevented with the oil shut  off valve!    

  

 Truthfully... one of the best systems I have  seen was on a Russian modified SU-31 that incorporated a oil shut off valve, but  also had a big red metal rod that then stuck out of the cowl right in front of  the eyes of the pilot's eyes.  But even that could be over-looked.   

  

 In my mind it really is a tradeoff... risk  in one direction versus risk in another.  

  

 R/S,

  

 Mark Bitterlich

  

  

 [quote]   --

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 1:47 pm Post subject: Kimball Clean Kit

Kevin, you are absolutely correct and I  agree with every word you have said.  I believe in your system(s), and plan  on purchasing them, or at least some of them, myself.  

  

 That said, I am sure that if every M-14  equipped aircraft had the shut off valve, sooner or later some yahoo would  manage to start one with the valve off.  Right now, the ones equipped with  the valve are a very small minority.  

  

 If after this discourse, anyone has any  doubt at all, let me make one thing perfectly clear:  I believe that Kevin  Kimball and his associates produce some of the finest parts and come up with  some of the best ideas (relating to just about anything and everything) that I  have ever come across.  I recommend his aircraft, his products and his  accessories without doubt or question.  If this sounds like a  commercial.... sorry, but I believe when someone deserves praise, they ought to  get it, just as when someone is a crook, the world needs to know THAT... no  punches pulled.  I am a strong advocate and supporter of every single thing  Kevin's company stands for, has made, or has on the drawing board.  We're  lucky to have someone like him around. 

  

 Mark Bitterlich

 N50YK

  

 [quote]   --

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:02 pm Post subject: Kimball Clean Kit

Saying all that, it still seems the Russians pretty well thought of everything with the oil shut off valve in the oil pump. Had to clean mine about two years ago and have not had any problems with it since. I realize the Kimballs have some good stuff. Their intake drain being one. I have noticed that my drain valve on the 50 does leak some after the valve is close and have seen it doing it after engine shut down. Yes it is fully closed  too. So nothing is perfect. It is up to us the pilot in charge to make sure our steads are airworthy. 

 10 to 1 the hydraulic lock occured because some one shorted the pull through.  8 blades being the minimum. I prefer 14. If there is oil draining from the intake or and exhaust stack, I pull more. If there is resistance to pulling the blade forward, I do not pull any farther. If it is solid, then rocking the blade back slightly will usually open a valve and the  oil will puke out. If it is not moving, the off comes the cowling and the spark plugs are pulled. Since I already have a drain kit I do not pull the intake plugs. 

 Early on I asked why there was not a manual oil cutoff valve to prevent an overflow that occures when the check valve is grunged up and allowing oil to overflow. After seeing that the check valve that the Russians invented was so efficient at keeping oil in my tank (particularly, I a little preventative maintenance was done regularly), I decided not to break a system that was not broke. If it is broke, then fix it.

 Doc

  

 



  

 [quote] ---

drc(at)wscare.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:09 pm Post subject: Kimball Clean Kit

Anyone know where to get the case acess that goes on the right side of the case when facing the engine?� �We had a discussion about oil in the cylinders and fluid lock at OSH.� Yeargis has a glass cover on the case that if I understood correctly allows him to pull the prop through after shutdown - while he can see the position of the crank.� When the crank stops in the highest 12 oclock position then no oil siphons down into the case.� Does anyone in the US know of this mod?� It seems simple and easy to install - 3 bolts unless you have a Yak 52TW with electric starter - then this cover is used to mount the starter.� It also solves the problem of starting with no oil.� I have never heard of it or seen it discussed, yet there it was on Yeargis' Sukhoi and Sergei knew of it too.� Any Euro's on the list know of it?

Herb�

On Aug 28, 2006, at 4:46 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E wrote:

[quote]  Kevin, you are absolutely correct and I agree with every word you have said.� I believe in your system(s), and plan on purchasing them, or at least some of them, myself.� 

 �

 That said, I am sure that if every M-14 equipped aircraft had the shut off valve, sooner or later some yahoo would manage to start one with the valve off.� Right now, the ones equipped with the valve are a very small minority.� 

 �

 If after this discourse, anyone has any doubt at all, let me make one thing perfectly clear:� I believe that Kevin Kimball and his associates produce some of the finest parts and come up with some of the best ideas (relating to just about anything and everything) that I have ever come across.� I recommend his aircraft, his products and his accessories without doubt or question.� If this sounds like a commercial.... sorry, but I believe when someone deserves praise, they ought to get it, just as when someone is a crook, the world needs to know THAT... no punches pulled.� I am a strong advocate and supporter of every single thing Kevin's company stands for, has made, or has on the drawing board.� We're lucky to have someone like him around. 

 �

 Mark Bitterlich

 N50YK

 �

 [quote]  --

dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 3:52 am Post subject: Kimball Clean Kit

Herb,

 There are many M14's out there, typically Type 1's, that do  not have the access plate on the nose case that you speak of.   Since  there really isn't a crankshaft  per sae, I would be interested in knowing  how "he can see the position of the crank." and what he  specifically looks for "When the crank stops in the highest 12 o'clock  position".

 Dennis

  

 [quote]   ---

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