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nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 8:18 am Post subject: The alternator drive stand . . .

I took a short trip yesterday in 'ol blue (a truck I inherited from

Dad) to take a look at the alternator drive stand I spoke of last

week. What a magnificent machine! Motor controlled variable speed

drive, well instrumented, self contained system simulator with

batteries, really beefy carbon pile load. Minimal barn-bird-crap

and rust. Best yet, mounted on casters.



Now the down side . . . it's fitted with a 10 hp, 440v three-phase

motor. I've been digging through the catalogs for reasonable

replacements that will run from the electron-pipe that comes into

my house.



I think I've identified a 5 hp, 240v single phase with the right

shaft diameter . . . and it's only $400 plus another $100 shipping.

When you're talking this size of motor, they start getting HEAVY!



I've made an agreement with the current owner to take over his

project with the proviso that he has access to it as needed and

that if I decide to get rid of it, he has first crack at it at

the "brother-in-law" price. Sounds like a deal to me.



I may well have this puppy up and running in my shop before

the end of the year.

        Bob . . .

      ---------------------------------------------------------

      < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >

      < the authority which determines whether there can be   >

      < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of   >

      < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests     >

      < with experiment.                                      >

      <                            --Lawrence M. Krauss       >

      ---------------------------------------------------------

rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.N
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 11:01 am Post subject: The alternator drive stand . . .

Hello Bob



"Now the down side . . . it's fitted with a 10 hp, 440v three-phase motor.

I've been digging through the catalogs for reasonable replacements that

will run from the electron-pipe that comes into my house."



Hello Bob



"Now the down side . . . it's fitted with a 10 hp, 440v three-phase motor.

I've been digging through the catalogs for reasonable replacements that

will run from the electron-pipe that comes into my house."



Did you check to see if you can rewire the 440v motor for 220/240?



If you can, you could run it on 220v single phase and use a capacitor or

means of getting it turning to run it on single phase. Of course if you

get any garden variety of 3 phase motors 2 or more hp if you leave it run

as a phase converter, it will allow a start with reasonable torque. The

more 3 phase motors running on single phase, the stronger the third leg.



I have a 7.5hp and 3hp (physical motor) phase converter in my garage. Home

owners will not cover if 3 phase in house by power company. The way I did

it is have phase converters plugged into a giant 220 outlet. This makes

the Ins. Co. happy, they consider it an appliance.



Then I have output plumbed into a 3 phase panel and conduit to machines.

One machine I run is a Monarch EE which has a 5HP motor that turns a DC

generator. They do hocus pocus where they manage to get very good low

speed torque, and is fully controllable. That is the way they did it in

1941.



Anyway the Monarch motor was wired for 440 and I converted it to 220. One

minor problem is since you are halving the voltage, you will draw more

amps. The heaters used for internal breakers were too powerful, i needed

to change them out. Another malady is the third leg is not absolute clean,

I had some relay chatter, by switching to another leg that cured the

problem. 



Working great since 1987. There has been a few times through the years

where I needed a lot of power. The 7.5 hp and the 5hp Monarch running

together is a little less powerful than pure 3 phase. I ran my 2hp

Bridgport and 2hp sander to aid the third leg. When really loading down

the motor, you could hear that it was happier with the 2 other machines

running.



Good luck!



Ron Parigoris



BTW I have do it yourself articles for making a friction drive (with aux 1

phase motor) or a phase shift capacitor with timer relay to get 3 phase

generator going. My 7.5 hp has a timer relay, but once running you need to

throw a switch, or else bad things happen when you shut down. The 3hp has

a simple push button, push it and once running let it go. I like the

push-button better!

nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 2:29 pm Post subject: The alternator drive stand . . .

At 06:59 PM 9/3/2006 +0000, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Hello Bob



"Now the down side . . . it's fitted with a 10 hp, 440v three-phase motor.

I've been digging through the catalogs for reasonable replacements that

will run from the electron-pipe that comes into my house."



Hello Bob



"Now the down side . . . it's fitted with a 10 hp, 440v three-phase motor.

I've been digging through the catalogs for reasonable replacements that

will run from the electron-pipe that comes into my house."



Did you check to see if you can rewire the 440v motor for 220/240?


	


   I believe it can. I considered the phase converter approach. I have

   a number of articles in my archives that speak to use of

   an unloaded 3-phase motor and array of capacitors. One such

   article is available at:



http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/ph-conv/ph-conv.html



   B&C uses this technique for their machine shop in Newton.



   I've never gotten my hands dirty on one of these systems. I note

   in the article that the converter motor should be equal to or larger

   than the largest motor in the downstream system. This calls for

   another 10 h.p. motor, the attendant capacitors, labor to assemble

   and space to house.



   After wrestling with the notion, it seemed a lower cost of ownership

   solution to simply replace the existing motor with a single-phase

   device albeit a smaller one. The existing motor is quite clean. I might

   be able to recoup some conversion costs by selling the old motor. But

   then if I kept it, I'd have a phase-converter motor available for any

   future adventures into 3-phase tools. That's all I need, a 100 pound prime

   piece of junque for my inventory of needful things!



 	  Quote: 	
		  Working great since 1987. There has been a few times through the years

where I needed a lot of power. The 7.5 hp and the 5hp Monarch running

together is a little less powerful than pure 3 phase. I ran my 2hp

Bridgport and 2hp sander to aid the third leg. When really loading down

the motor, you could hear that it was happier with the 2 other machines

running.


	


   Yeah, your experience re-enforces the notion that the converter

   motor needs to be a real pig for best performance.  I'll poke around

   some of the local motor houses and surplus yards. If I could get

   a boss-hog 3-phase motor really cheap . . .



 	  Quote: 	
		  BTW I have do it yourself articles for making a friction drive (with aux 1

phase motor) or a phase shift capacitor with timer relay to get 3 phase

generator going. My 7.5 hp has a timer relay, but once running you need to

throw a switch, or else bad things happen when you shut down. The 3hp has

a simple push button, push it and once running let it go. I like the

push-button better!


	


   I've seen converters where the builder simply couples a small

   motor to the phase converter machine and leaves it mechanically

   engaged and powered during normal operations. I don't see how it

   would 'hurt' anything . . . but again, I suspect one would want to

   time delay application of power to the idler motor for a second or

   two while the starter-motor gets things in motion.  Thanks for the

   feedback.



   Bob . . .

rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.N
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 4:09 pm Post subject: The alternator drive stand . . .

Hello Bob



I am not certain how your spinemthealternator machine works. 



Could you not just use the 10 HP motor as the phase converter?



In other words, start up your 10 hp motor with no load from the alternator

till the 10 hp gets going, then bring on the BTU output for alternator

load.



Dart throw the 10HP motor on single phase should be at least 5 hp?? Again

start adding 3 phase motors in parallel and output from 5HP will increase.



The concept of a phase converter is simple, but essential you need to get

a 3 phase motor spinning and then run it on single phase.



If you don't need to start your 10 hp motor from dead, you may not need

another motor at all.



Principal is simple, somehow you need to get the 3 phase motor spinning

before you add single phase or it will sit there "Stupid" and hummmmm. 



We discusses an aux motor to get it going, or temp. putting a phase shift

capacitor to get it going, I will suggest you try your machine with the

simplest (famous last words) by wrapping a rope around the shaft and

giving it a good pull then adding single phase power.



Lets say you need to test a 100 amp alternator, at 28V, that's 2800 watts

or ~ 1/3 of 10HP.  



If you like results, go for the capacitor.

Good Luck

Ron P.

ulflyer(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 6:15 pm Post subject: The alternator drive stand . . .

If I recall right there's a way of using a single phase motor to turn 

a 3 phase to output three power.  Machinist use this as cheap 3 phase 

converter when they need 3 phase for three shop at home where 3 phase 

is not available or cost prohibitive.

jerb



At 11:15 AM 9/3/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

<nuckollsr(at)cox.net>



I took a short trip yesterday in 'ol blue (a truck I inherited from

Dad) to take a look at the alternator drive stand I spoke of last

week. What a magnificent machine! Motor controlled variable speed

drive, well instrumented, self contained system simulator with

batteries, really beefy carbon pile load. Minimal barn-bird-crap

and rust. Best yet, mounted on casters.



Now the down side . . . it's fitted with a 10 hp, 440v three-phase

motor. I've been digging through the catalogs for reasonable

replacements that will run from the electron-pipe that comes into

my house.



I think I've identified a 5 hp, 240v single phase with the right

shaft diameter . . . and it's only $400 plus another $100 shipping.

When you're talking this size of motor, they start getting HEAVY!



I've made an agreement with the current owner to take over his

project with the proviso that he has access to it as needed and

that if I decide to get rid of it, he has first crack at it at

the "brother-in-law" price. Sounds like a deal to me.



I may well have this puppy up and running in my shop before

the end of the year.

        Bob . . .

      ---------------------------------------------------------

      < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >

      < the authority which determines whether there can be   >

      < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of   >

      < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests     >

      < with experiment.                                      >

      <                            --Lawrence M. Krauss       >

      ---------------------------------------------------------

nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 6:24 pm Post subject: The alternator drive stand . . .

At 12:05 AM 9/4/2006 +0000, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Hello Bob



I am not certain how your spinemthealternator machine works.



Could you not just use the 10 HP motor as the phase converter?



In other words, start up your 10 hp motor with no load from the alternator

till the 10 hp gets going, then bring on the BTU output for alternator

load.



Dart throw the 10HP motor on single phase should be at least 5 hp?? Again

start adding 3 phase motors in parallel and output from 5HP will increase.


	


    No, single phase motors that use some form of magnetic resistor-inductive,

    or capacitor-inductive phase shifting achieve what appears to the rotor

    as a spinning magnetic field. Three phase motors assume there's three

    120-degree shifted sources of energy that don't need to do any "fool'n".

    The result is an extremely efficient motor that works without reactance in

    the electrics or shaded poles in the magnetics.

 	  Quote: 	
		  The concept of a phase converter is simple, but essential you need to get

a 3 phase motor spinning and then run it on single phase.


	




 	  Quote: 	
		  If you don't need to start your 10 hp motor from dead, you may not need

another motor at all.


	


    3-phase motors that are very lightly loaded (gyro motors are a good

    example) will run acceptably well from a single phase supply when

    augmented with some external resistances and reactances. Years

    ago, I designed a single phase inverter and companion phase shift

    networks to spin up military surplus, 3-phase attitude gyros.



    The "fooler" supply took about 3x as long for the motor to reach

    running speed on power-up . . . and the top speed was about 10%

    slower than design speed compared with a true 3-phase supply

    - but satisfactory.

 	  Quote: 	
		  Principal is simple, somehow you need to get the 3 phase motor spinning

before you add single phase or it will sit there "Stupid" and hummmmm.


	


    True of single phase motors that have lost their start-up circuit

    but 3-phase motors don't have the shading/shifting necessary for

    single phase running.



 	  Quote: 	
		  We discusses an aux motor to get it going, or temp. putting a phase shift

capacitor to get it going, I will suggest you try your machine with the

simplest (famous last words) by wrapping a rope around the shaft and

giving it a good pull then adding single phase power.


	


   If it runs at all, it will be exceedingly lacking in power. The

   article I cited is an excellent example of a technique that

   gets you a majority of the motor's rated capability. Passive phase

   shift networks fall far short of this.



   Bob . . .

nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 6:31 pm Post subject: The alternator drive stand . . .

At 09:10 PM 10/3/2006 -0500, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



If I recall right there's a way of using a single phase motor to turn a 3 

phase to output three power.  Machinist use this as cheap 3 phase 

converter when they need 3 phase for three shop at home where 3 phase is 

not available or cost prohibitive.

jerb


	


  No, an auxiliary 3-phase motor as shown in:



http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/ph-conv/ph-conv.html



   Bob . . .

retasker(at)optonline.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 7:35 pm Post subject: The alternator drive stand . . .

FYI.



McMaster Carr has a 5HP 230V single phase for $350 and a 5HP three phase 

(if you want to set up a phase converter with a new motor) for $230.



Dick Tasker



Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>



 I took a short trip yesterday in 'ol blue (a truck I inherited from

 Dad) to take a look at the alternator drive stand I spoke of last

 week. What a magnificent machine! Motor controlled variable speed

 drive, well instrumented, self contained system simulator with

 batteries, really beefy carbon pile load. Minimal barn-bird-crap

 and rust. Best yet, mounted on casters.



 Now the down side . . . it's fitted with a 10 hp, 440v three-phase

 motor. I've been digging through the catalogs for reasonable

 replacements that will run from the electron-pipe that comes into

 my house.



 I think I've identified a 5 hp, 240v single phase with the right

 shaft diameter . . . and it's only $400 plus another $100 shipping.

 When you're talking this size of motor, they start getting HEAVY!



 I've made an agreement with the current owner to take over his

 project with the proviso that he has access to it as needed and

 that if I decide to get rid of it, he has first crack at it at

 the "brother-in-law" price. Sounds like a deal to me.



 I may well have this puppy up and running in my shop before

 the end of the year.

        Bob . . .

      ---------------------------------------------------------

      < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >

      < the authority which determines whether there can be   >

      < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of   >

      < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests     >

      < with experiment.                                      >

      <                            --Lawrence M. Krauss       >

      ---------------------------------------------------------


	


-- 

Please Note: 

No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message.  We do concede, however,

that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced.

--

rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.N
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 10:10 pm Post subject: The alternator drive stand . . .

Hello Bob



I think point of my last post got lost. I was suggesting to forget about a

phase convertor all together and run your 10hp motor on single phase.



You did not answer if you need to start the 10HP motor with a load on it

(alternator)?



If not then why not run your 10hp motor on a single phase?



According to your article a 3 phase motor run on 1 phase should produce

2/3 rated capacity. That is 6 plus hp.



I am suggesting if 6 plus hp is an acceptable power, and you can start up

the 3 phase motor with little load (alternator not producing) then forget

about a roto phase converter all together, and just run your 10 hp motor

at 2/3 rated hp.



I suggested to try it with a rope pull for a test, if it works well, then

on your 10hp motor install a capacitor to phase shift on start up only.



No question that running a 10 hp motor on single phase and producing ~ 6

hp will not be the most efficient 6 hp single phase motor in the world.



I doubt the extra energy you will consume will have much a net monetary

loss.



This is a fairly simple test, get 220 single phase to your 10hp motor,

rope pull it and add the 220 power. You should have a 6hp motor. You

mention if it runs at all???  This is exact what a roto phase is, just

running a 3 phase motor on single phase. Now if you added another 10 hp

motor to the running one, the second one could start from dead and produce

more than 2/3 rated power, but if 6 hp is enough.....

Ron Parigoris

nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 4:16 am Post subject: The alternator drive stand . . .

At 11:32 PM 9/3/2006 -0400, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

<retasker(at)optonline.net>



FYI.



McMaster Carr has a 5HP 230V single phase for $350 and a 5HP three phase 

(if you want to set up a phase converter with a new motor) for $230.



Dick Tasker


	


   Thanks! I'll check it out. I'm shaft-size critical for this

   task. Half of the speed changer mechanism mounts directly on

   the motor shaft so that feature has bounded my choices to

   some degree. Appreciate the heads-up!



   Bob . . .

ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 4:29 pm Post subject: The alternator drive stand . . .

Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>



 I took a short trip yesterday in 'ol blue (a truck I inherited from

 Dad) to take a look at the alternator drive stand I spoke of last

 week. What a magnificent machine! Motor controlled variable speed

 drive, well instrumented, self contained system simulator with

 batteries, really beefy carbon pile load. Minimal barn-bird-crap

 and rust. Best yet, mounted on casters.



 Now the down side . . . it's fitted with a 10 hp, 440v three-phase

 motor. I've been digging through the catalogs for reasonable

 replacements that will run from the electron-pipe that comes into

 my house.



 I think I've identified a 5 hp, 240v single phase with the right

 shaft diameter . . . and it's only $400 plus another $100 shipping.

 When you're talking this size of motor, they start getting HEAVY!



 I've made an agreement with the current owner to take over his

 project with the proviso that he has access to it as needed and

 that if I decide to get rid of it, he has first crack at it at

 the "brother-in-law" price. Sounds like a deal to me.



 I may well have this puppy up and running in my shop before

 the end of the year.

        Bob . . . 


	




New versions of 3phase converters ain't as expensive as the old days ( & 

ship a lot cheaper):



http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/N2DRVSH



Should be a lot easier to install, too.



I wish I had known this before I had 3phase run to my house & hangar.



Charlie

nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 6:13 pm Post subject: The alternator drive stand . . .

 	  Quote: 	
		  



New versions of 3phase converters ain't as expensive as the old days ( & 

ship a lot cheaper):



http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/N2DRVSH



Should be a lot easier to install, too.



I wish I had known this before I had 3phase run to my house & hangar.



Charlie


	




    Great data point! Thanks. I'll look into this technology.



    Bob . . .

nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 6:41 pm Post subject: The alternator drive stand . . .

 	  Quote: 	
		  



New versions of 3phase converters ain't as expensive as the old days ( & 

ship a lot cheaper):



http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/N2DRVSH



Should be a lot easier to install, too.



I wish I had known this before I had 3phase run to my house & hangar.


	


   Good info Charlie. Did some surfing on the

   static converter topic and picked up some

   good information. Thanks for the heads-up!



   Bob . . .

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