 |
Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest
|
 Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 7:06 am Post subject: Logic and experience (was about alternators) |
 |
|
At 11:36 AM 9/1/2006 -0700, you wrote:
| Quote: | Bob:
I probably don't have scientific evidence of why I have
the opinions I do or why it differs from yours. I do have
logic and personal experience to share.
We do agree that checklist are good, and from an
electrical standpoint most alternators (not all) don't care
if you turn them ON before or after start. OK?
HOWEVER given the choice I say turn the ALT ON with
the BAT before start and than back OFF together with the
BAT after engine shut down. I'll explain.
**Let me tell you all a little story first**
One of my students many years ago was going on one of
her solo cross country flights. Well she made one
mistake and turned the battery on and accidentally left
the ALT off (Cessna split switch). . .
|
<snip>
| Quote: | Bob, you can INSERT your argument in HERE that
there should be a low volt idiot light. I agree, but that is
POOR Airmanship to rely on idiot lights to configure the
plane's electrical system properly.
|
No argument. Never was probability of an argument. The
Cessna system design (and for most GA single engine
aircraft) sucks. The anecdote cited has nothing to do
with the question that started this thread.
| Quote: |
If you want me to prove my opinion or explain my logic
better than I already have, I can't. I have no top secret
oscilloscope plots to prove my opinion. It really is not
an electrical thing, it's more human factors.
My opinion is based on 12,000 hrs flt time & counting,
CFI, ATP, airline and engineer for Boeing, which . . .
|
<snip>
And I might have a lifetime of picking apples but
that doesn't make me an apple horticulturist. I've
spent 50 years getting my hands dirty, figuring out
how things work, designing new products and doing
my best to keep customers happy, but that doesn't
make me a human factors expert either.
I've never asked you to prove anything, only offer logical
foundation for your assertions . . . be a teacher
for the ideas you hold dear.
| Quote: |
**Oh I throw the ALT switch after start, even though the
checklist says otherwise, because I think it's better,
but I forgot this time.**
hummmm
Can you say violation and licence revoked? I love pilots
who are too cool to BLINDLY follow checklist. Follow the
darn checklist. It's not trivial or just to evaluate pilots by,
it's the safety net of aviation, use it. Some day pilots flying
a C-150 may be in a G-V or B747 and good checklist
discipline is critical. Its just good Airmanship and I don't
need any data to prove standardization is goodness.
|
Discipline IS critical and understanding leads to
the crafting of good checklists. But when we choose to
work in the type certificated aviation, we're
subject to the will and whim of many who exert a force
based on demands for our faith and fear of reprisal
for any transgressions. More on this later . . .
| Quote: |
Experimental, do what ever you want, but suggest you try
to consider the traditional or standard procedures as a
starting point.
|
. . . agreed . . . and then EXPAND on that to see
what's supported by the science and what makes sense for
achieving our own design goals. It's also wise to
acknowledge a strong probability that government and
industry have adopted certain practices for nothing more
than the sake of adopting common practices . . . but that's
a human factors thing . . .
| Quote: |
Exception to the RULE - Internally regulated Alternators
Again it does not matter from an electronics stand point
for most alternators when you turn them ON or OFF except
for internally regulated alternators. Since there's no I-VR
alternators on factory planes, it only affects experimental
aircraft that use them.
|
NEVER argued against that. This is what prompted
the design goal to craft a way that the I-R alternator
can be seamlessly integrated into the classic architectures
so that their controllability shortfall is eliminated.
| Quote: |
I always have recommended I-VR alternators be ON
before cranking the engine and OFF after engine shut
down. The logical reason is, I-VR alternators are based
on an automotive application. I again ask rhetorically,
"How many cars need the driver to activate the alternator
separately?" The answer is none. If using a I-VR
alternator, it's logical to operate it the same way as it
does in the automobile, for which it was designed.
|
If you embrace that philosophy, fly it in comfort
and peace. My customers have asked for more and
I'll do my best to deliver on it . . .
| Quote: |
The second reason for not cycling internally regulated
alternators while they're spinning is they can fail. From
my experience and those of many I have helped and
corresponded with, who had I-VR alternator problems,
they all had a common thread, they played switch
monkey with the ALT (IGN) switch. Anecdotal yes, but
it's what I got, take it or leave it.
|
Agreed. That's what prompted the TEMPORARY withdrawal
of Z-24 until a better system can be crafted. The
system integration problem can and will be solved.
| Quote: |
Technically IC chips inside some I-VR's have delays and
soft start functions most external voltage regulators
don't have, including the B&C unit. By using an internal
V-regulator to switch high amps ON/OFF is needless and
counter to its design. Again, no scientific bench test or
scope traces to show. Take it or leave it. Fact is I-VR's are
microprocessor controlled in many cases and don't need
or benefit from pilot switch monkey intervention (my opinion).
Again my LOGIC, my EXPERIENCE, my OPINION and
research into I-VR designs is the basis of my comments.
I have no scientific proof that will make you happy Bob,
sorry. The best I got, take it or leave it.
|
Thanks, but I'll have to leave it. I'm not asking you to
make me happy. I'm not even trying to convince you
of anything. Your 'research' into IR alternators from
the engineering perspective has yet to demonstrate
a depth of information necessary to assist you in
becoming an illuminating resource on the topic.
| Quote: | Now Bob tell me why turning the ALT on and off as a
separate step, post-start is superior? (Forget electrons,
think like a pilot for a minute.)
|
I'm wasn't arguing superior versus inferior. The question
was, "does it matter from the perspective of physics" and
my answer was "NO . . . except for the I-R alternator's
special case . . . which WILL be dealt with in a
rational manner."
You're a teacher of pilots. Craft any syllabus and
adopt any understanding of physics you wish which
your handlers will bless. I am a teacher of designers
and a provider of products. My customers are my "handlers"
and they've expressed interest in knowing how things work
so that they may judge the worth of my ideas and products for
themselves. I hold my own teachers to the same standards.
My goals are for a shared understanding, not faith.
As we're growing up, folks who hold authority over
us MUST operate under a philosophy of faith and fear: "I'm
the adult, you're the child. Trust me to know what's
best for you but know that failure to observe the
rules of my household may prove painful."
One hopes that as we transition from child to adult, we
acquire understanding and confidence: "I understand the nature
of the problem before me and I'm confident of my ability to
deal with it in an honorable, reasoned manner that minimizes
risk."
Unfortunately, many who SHOULD have made this transition
years ago are still subject to the pressures from those
who would exert influence on our lives under the doctrines
of faith/fear. There are individuals who elevate themselves
above what they've perceived as unfortunate, un-educable
masses and take on the role of eternal parent. This is in
contrast with the transient teacher who offers the best they know
and sends folks on their way in confidence to search for
new knowledge, skills and understanding.
A too-large proportion of our fellow citizens place almost
religious faith in policy, regulation, certification,
tradition, etc. I'm only suggesting that folks
who choose to join the OBAM aviation community have already
rejected a facet of mindless worship of tradition
and government's willingness to be the the eternal parent.
In the type certificated household we're told: "I'm in
charge here, the VALUE of my contribution is irrelevant and
your understanding matters not - do as I say or be sanctioned."
You are free to teach any philosophy you wish . . .
your students pay their tuition and take their chances.
That's the way it is in the hard, cold and cruel world
of consumer/supplier relationships. If your students
are content with value-received and you've delivered
on what you promised, then there's no argument from me . . .
especially if your willing to tell them, "I don't have any
science but this is what I believe." It's called "truth in
advertising". I would only counsel that what you offer should
liberating, not binding. This is the difference between
being a teacher and a propagandist.
Bob . . .
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 8:53 am Post subject: Logic and experience (was about alternators) |
|
|
| Quote: | From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net (nuckollsr(at)cox.net)>
Subject: Re: Logic and experience (was about
alternators)
>
|
>At 11:36 AM 9/1/2006 -0700, you wrote:
> <snip>
> And I might have a lifetime of picking apples but
| Quote: | that doesn't make me an apple horticulturist. I've
spent 50 years getting my hands dirty, figuring out
how things work, designing new products and doing
my best to keep customers happy, but that doesn't
make me a human factors expert either.
> I've never asked you to prove anything, only offer logical
|
| Quote: | foundation for your assertions . . . be a teacher
for the ideas you hold dear.
|
I am not sure what you mean?
I gather you are saying you are not a horticulturist,
your old with dirty hands and you are not an expert
on anything, but you are stubborn and hold on to
your antiquated ideas despite anyone else's opinion?
That is cool. I knew that already. (Its a Joke Bob, don't
take yourself too seriously, I am kidding you.)
I am no human factors expert either, but I did sit in a room
full of PhD's, astronauts and test pilots at one time who
where, when working on cockpit design and checklists.
Some may have rubbed off on me. There is always a
overnight stay at a Holiday Inn Express.
As a pilot, I study CRM, Crew Resource Management or
Cockpit Resource Management for some; part of the
study involves the interaction of man and machine. The
impetus of the CRM study came from accidents like Eastern
Flt 401, Florida Everglades. A two bit light bulb was partly
the cause. Every aspect, including systems, procedures,
switch throwing is encompassed in CRM.
Bob, just because we might disagree it does not mean I don’t respect you. Just respect others perspective,
say you understand but don’t agree. Their point of view
may not be important to you Bob, but others may benefit.
Bob embrace the unique inputs from everyone on this list,
who may have a different perspective, not just me. One thing
you learn in CRM is even the junior crew member may have
good and critical info. You run a lot of people away who have
things to contribute. You may think you could not possibly
learn anything about electrical systems from me or others?
You may be surprised on occasion. Teachers need to
keep learning as well.
I already made my point on the topic, so there is no need to
repeat them over and over, again and again. I stand by them
as valid points in the context of, shall I or shan't I turn the
ALT on before or after engine start.
For the third time you are right BOB! It does not matter for
MOST alternators when you turn them on. Where we disagree
is I-VR alternator's. Why override the automatic functions
built-into the I-VR device? You still have not answered me.
That is the beauty of I-VR, is there internal logic and control.
You don't like them, despite your comments otherwise. That
is fine, and you are just stubborn. We still love you.
Me Doth Think-ith Ye protest too much.
This learning thing is suppose to be fun, right Bob. As
a teacher, as you say your are, you know if you make it
a bummer, people will turn off.
| Quote: | >
>*Oh I throw the ALT switch after start, even though the
>checklist says otherwise, because I think it's better,
>but I forgot this time.**
>
>hummmm
>
>Can you say violation and license revoked? I love pilots
>who are too cool to BLINDLY follow checklist. Follow the
>darn checklist. It's not trivial or just to evaluate pilots by,
>it's the safety net of aviation, use it. Some day pilots flying
>a C-150 may be in a G-V or B747 and good checklist
>discipline is critical. Its just good Airmanship and I don't
>need any data to prove standardization is goodness.
|
>
> Discipline IS critical and understanding leads to
| Quote: | the crafting of good checklists. But when we choose to
work in the type certificated aviation, we're
subject to the will and whim of many who exert a force
based on demands for our faith and fear of reprisal
for any transgressions. More on this later . . .
|
Again I don’t quite get what you mean, lots of words, but
I get that FAR’s and the FAA hold sway over all pilots
lives. Again experimental aircraft are called experimental
for a reason, they don’t meet or need to meet standard
aircraft regs. I also appreciate the need or desire of people
such as your self to change and make wiring improvements
in little planes, as they see fit. Still my points about when
to (or not to) turn the ALT ON, stands.
I would just add, keep it simple and light as possible. Less
is more.
>>
| Quote: | >Experimental, do what ever you want, but suggest you try
>to consider the traditional or standard procedures as a
>starting point.
|
>
> . . . agreed . . . and then EXPAND on that to see
| Quote: | what's supported by the science and what makes sense for
achieving our own design goals. It's also wise to
acknowledge a strong probability that government and
industry have adopted certain practices for nothing more
than the sake of adopting common practices . . . but that's
a human factors thing . . .
|
I agree, but in the same breath you say:
NOTHING MORE THAN THE SAKE OF ADOPTING
COMMON PRACTICES.
Nothing more?
That sounds condescending. Common practices is a corner
stone of aviation safety, it is not, NOTHING MORE.
Look, for me the goal is to FLY at some point, safely fly, not
just to make an electrical system to hang on the wall or
marvel at how complex it is. I don't trivialize your contribution
in designing the perfect DC wiring distribution diagram for light
planes; please don't discount my human factors and common
practices input. I think both perspectives are important. You
obviously like to make subtle comments about the
qualification of the person who makes the comments and boost
your own. Bob that is counter productive.
A system should contribute safety. Poor system design can
adversely affect interaction with the crew. In the case of the
ALT, I prefer a single throw double throw MASTER to assure
the ALT is ON or OFF with the BAT. Simple and protects the
pilot from inadvertently not turning it On/Off by accident.
Triple throw switches are just waiting to be misused.
| Quote: | >
>Again it does not matter from an electronics stand point
>for most alternators when you turn them ON or OFF except
>for internally regulated alternators. Since there's no I-VR
>alternators on factory planes, it only affects experimental
>aircraft that use them.
|
>
> NEVER argued against that. This is what prompted
| Quote: | the design goal to craft a way that the I-R alternator
can be seamlessly integrated into the classic architectures
so that their controllable shortfall is eliminated.
|
Why must discussions with you become arguments. I never
said you said anything. Sometimes people say things to ADD
to the conversation that has nothing to do with YOU, Bob.
I was bringing up human factors and checklist all on my own.
I think it was good input, logical. You may (obviously) disagree.
Bob if you want to seamlessly integrate an I-R alternator into
a classic architecture it has been done already. If you want
ADDED protection on a I-R Alt, than buy a Plane Power unit
from Van's aircraft. It has an extra OV module that opens or
cuts power to the I-Regulator. The OV module is compact
and mounts right on the alternator. The beauty is there's no
E-R to mount on the firewall with all the extra wiring. Plus you
have the superior control of an I-R, which all experts agree is
better than an E-Regulator 6-feet away. In fact I-R will protect
the alternator from over heat! Cool. An E-R can not do that.
(We now have microprocessor control in alternators. Isn't the
21st century great.
With the Plane Power OV module add on, that should
satisfy you, right? You will acknowledge and compliment
the designer, Plane Power, on a job well done?
I don't think a stock I-R needs or MUST have an add on OV
module as Plane Power offers, but this should definitively
squelch any worry or complaint you or anyone has about I-R
alternators, Right? Don't you think?
There it is, the perfect alternator, and it's 1/2 the price of B&C,
with the better I-R control.
Personally a stock I-R alternator with out the Plane Power's
add on OV device is very safe and unlikely to ever have a
catastrophic OV event, if service history teaches us anything.
Again the chance of I-R Alt going wild is tiny. The few
documented OV cases where mild (16-18 volts). In most all
cases there was indiscriminate or improper pilot switch
throwing involved or the pilot was not vigilant. In the end there
was only one or two OV events that allegedly caused any
damage of some kind (the battery in one case). Although
kind of documented the conditions and cause where under
some sketchy circumstances.
The I-R protects the alternator from OV very nicely in stock form.
How many cars have you heard of experiencing a catastrophic
OV condition? There are millions I-R on the road around the
world. Most modern avionics are good for 10-30 volts and 60
volt spike BTW, so 16-18 volts is a non event. We can agree to
disagree Bob.
My solution? (really as old as the hills)
A PANEL MOUNTED B-LEAD CIRCUIT BREAKER
(PULL-ABLE), CAN AT LEAST ALLOW YOU TO
MANUALLY DISCONNECT.
Most CB's are rated to 30-60 volts, so it can provide a reliable
B-lead disconnect for a typical OV condition, which are mild as
I said. It is unlikely you will ever need to do this step. Any story
or urban legend of crazy voltages are undocumented and
unproven. Many stories start with a friend of a friend had his
I-R alternator go crazy in his Cessna 172 and all the radios
shot out of the plane like missles. Hummmm? RIght
There is risk in flying. It never will be ZERO and an alternator
is probably the least of your worries in the big scheme of things.
The dark and stormy where every instrument was fried from
an I-VR alternator in Bob's articles are unsubstantiated stories
with no facts. Right Bob? There is no data, date, time, place,
N number, analysis, pictures, NOTHING. This bothers me.
Your burden of proof is so low you accept these stories with
out question, but you demand absolute documentation and
data of everyone else. If you want me to take your seriously,
you need to meet the same standard of proof as you demand
of everyone else.
No one has shown any astronomical long duration extreme
voltage condition. WHY? Because the I-R alternator are
designed to prevent it. I guess THINGS CAN HAPPEN?
I have yet to see the proof.
Don't design by FEAR, design by FACTS.
| Quote: | >
>I always have recommended I-VR alternators be ON
>before cranking the engine and OFF after engine shut
>down. The logical reason is, I-VR alternators are based
>on an automotive application. I again ask rhetorically,
>"How many cars need the driver to activate the alternator
>separately?" The answer is none. If using a I-VR
>alternator, it's logical to operate it the same way as it
>does in the automobile, for which it was designed.
|
>
> If you embrace that philosophy, fly it in comfort
| Quote: | and peace. My customers have asked for more and
I'll do my best to deliver on it . . .
|
Yep, we agree to disagree, you do your best Bob; we expect
no less.
| Quote: | >
>The second reason for not cycling internally regulated
>alternators while they're spinning is they can fail. From
>my experience and those of many I have helped and
>corresponded with, who had I-VR alternator problems,
>they all had a common thread, they played switch
>monkey with the ALT (IGN) switch. Anecdotal yes, but
>it's what I got, take it or leave it.
|
>
> Agreed. That's what prompted the TEMPORARY withdrawal
| Quote: | of Z-24 until a better system can be crafted. The
system integration problem can and will be solved.
|
OK, great Bob you work on that. No offense I hope your
solution does not include a big OV relay and crow bar
on the B-lead; I just hate that set-up and a nuisance
trip WILL damage I-VR alternators, as we all know. When
Richard Vangrunsven, founder of Van's Aircraft stated he
would no longer warranty alternators connected to an OV
crow-bar, you called him ignorant! You did this with no
data or discussion. Could you be wrong or miss the
point sometimes, Bob? Get the data before you call
people ignorant.
| Quote: | >
>Technically IC chips inside some I-VR's have delays and
>soft start functions most external voltage regulators
>don't have, including the B&C unit. By using an internal
>V-regulator to switch high amps ON/OFF is needless and
>counter to its design. Again, no scientific bench test or
>scope traces to show. Take it or leave it. Fact is I-VR's are
>microprocessor controlled in many cases and don't need
>or benefit from pilot switch monkey intervention (my opinion).
>
>Again my logic, my experience, my opinion and
>research into I-VR designs is the basis of my comments.
>I have no scientific proof that will make you happy Bob,
sorry. The best I got, take it or leave it.
|
>
> Thanks, but I'll have to leave it. I'm not asking you to
| Quote: | make me happy. I'm not even trying to convince you
of anything. Your 'research' into IR alternators from
the engineering perspective has yet to demonstrate
a depth of information necessary to assist you in
becoming an illuminating resource on the topic.
|
Bob you always seem like you are trying to convince people
to me, if I'm going to be totally honest. Aren't you the one that
just went 9 rounds about diodes verses transorbs? Who cares.
We got it, you like diodes. Fine, but we individuals will do as
we like, and sometimes it is not what you would do. That
seems to get to you, like how dare we not follow your logic
and experience. Just my opinion. I still like you and learned
a lot from you, but you don't have all the data all the time.
As far as rejecting my input, well that's your opinion and I'll
be fine with it, but you confuse me. You already agreed
with me on this point in your previous post.
My comment about making you happy was in regards to
answering the avalanche of questions that you asked me.
You either asked those questions to gain knowledge or
just asking a barrage of questions to confuse, obfuscate
and discredit.
I don’t need or desire to make you happy, but would like you
to reply directly to the topic without all the bloviating. In this
case, the topic is beat to death and beyond the scope of the
original question or points I made. It is now turned into a
discussion about YOU and your experience. Again Bob
it is not about you. It is about the facts. Sometimes the
answer is it does not matter. I have no Dog in the Fight,
I just added some nuance to the topic, which seems to
have set you off again? No one is steeling your thunder.
You are right Bob. OK. I just filled in some holes.
Just throwing out all kinds of questions makes it seem the
other person's point is questionable. It's a debate technique.
May be your are just being cantankerous. If you asked in
good faith than you have my answer, logic and supporting
points. Take it or leave it. There is no need to beat it like a
rug. How about GOOD POINT GEORGE. Instead you
defend your point to death as if nothing else matters. What
is up with that?
You seem to do that Bob, ask questions and avoid replying
directly. Do you really want to know the answer or view
point, or are you just going ignore it and bury it with more
questions.
There is no need to repeat myself. I know I'm right and happy
with my comments and conclusions.
To be honest Bob you hold other's to a very high standard
of proof to satisfy you. However that's a little frustrating for
many posters who do attempt to answer you, because you
keep asking questions about questions and criticize a single
word. It feels like hypocrisy at times. Many of your ideas and
preferences are justified by no more than your opinion. Your
past comments and horror stories of I-VR have no facts to
back them up. People accept that, and if it makes them or
you happy, that is all that counts.
Your preference Bob is not always the best for all. Sorry,
did I just say the emperor has no clothes?
>>
>>Now Bob tell me why turning the ALT on and off as a
| Quote: | >separate step, post-start is superior? (Forget electrons,
>think like a pilot for a minute.)
|
>
> I'm wasn't arguing superior versus inferior. The question
| Quote: | was, "does it matter from the perspective of physics" and
my answer was "NO . . . except for the I-R alternator's
special case . . . which WILL be dealt with in a
rational manner."
|
I am not arguing at all. I agree with you Bob. I just added
a different perspective to the conversation. Again it is not
all about YOU Bob. Sometimes others bring something
new to the table. The table is big and there is room for
all kinds of ideas and options.
>
| Quote: | You're a teacher of pilots. Craft any syllabus and
adopt any understanding of physics you wish which
your handlers will bless. I am a teacher of designers
and a provider of products. My customers are my "handlers"
and they've expressed interest in knowing how things work
so that they may judge the worth of my ideas and products for
themselves. I hold my own teachers to the same standards.
My goals are for a shared understanding, not faith.
|
And you do a great job, keep the work up.
>
| Quote: | As we're growing up, folks who hold authority over
us MUST operate under a philosophy of faith and fear: "I'm
the adult, you're the child. Trust me to know what's
best for you but know that failure to observe the
rules of my household may prove painful."
|
WOW not sure what that means but I hear therapy is useful
sometimes in resolving child hood issues (ha ha ha). A sense
of humor is important. Also forgiving and not holding grudges
is also good thing. Just making a joke.
>
| Quote: | One hopes that as we transition from child to adult, we
acquire understanding and confidence: "I understand the nature
of the problem before me and I'm confident of my ability to
deal with it in an honorable, reasoned manner that minimizes
risk."
|
Yes I am confident in my ability and reasoning and risk
management, as you clearly are in yours.
>
| Quote: | Unfortunately, many who SHOULD have made this transition
years ago are still subject to the pressures from those
who would exert influence on our lives under the doctrines
of faith/fear. There are individuals who elevate themselves
above what they've perceived as unfortunate, un-educable
masses and take on the role of eternal parent. This is in
contrast with the transient teacher who offers the best they
know and sends folks on their way in confidence to search
for new knowledge, skills and understanding.
|
Again therapy  . I know you don’t like working for others and
feel you are oppressed at work. You write about all the time. That
is why this experimental thing is such a great thing for you. It
allows you freedom to exercise your creativity. I was also in
engineering decades ago and also was under the oppressive rules.
Now I am an airline pilot, which is even more oppressive. Doha!
You got to laugh sometimes; it's not that big of a deal. Don’t take
yourself too seriously. It is for fun, its about learning.
>
| Quote: | A too-large proportion of our fellow citizens place almost
religious faith in policy, regulation, certification,
tradition, etc. I'm only suggesting that folks
who choose to join the OBAM aviation community have already
rejected a facet of mindless worship of tradition
and government's willingness to be the the eternal parent.
In the type certificated household we're told: "I'm in
charge here, the VALUE of my contribution is irrelevant and
your understanding matters not - do as I say or be sanctioned."
|
Double WOW religion, government and parents? If the world
was run by ME things would be better. I feel your pain Bob.
Bob for president (ha ha).
>
| Quote: | You are free to teach any philosophy you wish . . .
your students pay their tuition and take their chances.
That's the way it is in the hard, cold and cruel world
of consumer/supplier relationships. If your students
are content with value-received and you've delivered
on what you promised, then there's no argument from me
especially if your willing to tell them, "I don't have any
science but this is what I believe." It's called "truth in
advertising". I would only counsel that what you offer should
liberating, not binding. This is the difference between
being a teacher and a propagandist.
> Bob . . .
|
What? (no one is after your job Bob) You are in charge and
the king of DC wiring distribution in little planes.
Thanks for your permission for free speech, but I was
granted that by The First Amendment to the United States
Constitution, part of the United States Bill of Rights. Bob
your last sentience is a good one. To coin a phrase it is a
two way street.
Don't you be a dictator. Let others post opinion with out
rhetoric and oppression. A simple we agree to disagree
is all that is needed, with out things like your atrocious
Document Hazard Warning against Greg Richter of Blue
Mountain Avionics you have on your web site. You make
way too much out of small issues. It is not about winning
an argument, it is about teaching. I guess Greg said
there are atrocious examples of wiring, and some is
from following your book. Hey it is his opinion. I think
those people would be making weird stuff with or without
your book. I can't blame you book. There is a lot of info
out there. Wiring DC circuits is not new.
You are the BIG DOG, resident electrical guru and always
will be. It's your thing. You are good at it, you care about it
and have done a lot to help amateur plane builders improve
the quality of wiring. You do have a passion for over kill and
complexity, but that is just my opinion. There are a lot of
Bob *Knuckle Heads* out there who are fans, so you are
doing something right. Of course many home builder like
adding more gizmo's and switches. Many will no doubt flame
me on your behalf. Asbestos underwear on. Flame on.
Cheers Your Fan George
Get on board. [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=40791/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta]You're invited[/url] to try the new Yahoo! Mail. [quote][b]
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mark Phillips in TN
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 431
Location: Columbia, TN
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 5:19 pm Post subject: Logic and experience (was about alternators) |
|
|
In a message dated 09/05/2006 1:38:07 PM Central Daylight Time, gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com writes:
| Quote: | And I might have a lifetime of picking apples but
| Quote: | | that doesn't make me an apple horticulturist |
I sincerely hope that whoever invented the "Delete" key is comfortably relaxing on a sunny beach in the Carribean or SP at this time........
|
do not archive (sigh)
Mark Phillips
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
_________________
From The PossumWorks... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
Get Email Distribution Too!
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
