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Priming in a confined space

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kearney(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:36 am Post subject: Priming in a confined space

Hi

As part of my self education process I have been reading various links for

priming info. 



I noticed that many people print outside on sunny, warm days - an option I

won't have in the winter when its -20C and snowing. 



That being said, how does one *safely* prime in a heated garage. By safely I

mean that I want to have a fuel air explosion caused by my natural gas

garage heater as well as avoid growing a third arm due to toxic fumes.



Inquiring minds need to know ....



Les Kearney

RV10 Wannabe

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:08 am Post subject: Priming in a confined space

I can think of a couple of possibles ...... but they're going to cool 

down your workspace.

First of all, you need positive air flow through the garage as a whole, 

or a temporary paint booth with an exhaust fan to the outside.  You may 

even have to shut off the heater while you're painting.  You need to do 

whatever you need to do to safely paint.  Err on the 'severly cautious' 

side because if you come up short .......

But bottom line is that you need a good flow of fresh air ........ but 

then again, that third arm might just come in handy.  Actually, you need 

to be more concerned with getting airborne paint solids into the lungs. 

 Almost all the paints today will stay there and do nasty things.

Linn

Les Kearney wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Hi

As part of my self education process I have been reading various links for

priming info. 



I noticed that many people print outside on sunny, warm days - an option I

won't have in the winter when its -20C and snowing. 



That being said, how does one *safely* prime in a heated garage. By safely I

mean that I want to have a fuel air explosion caused by my natural gas

garage heater as well as avoid growing a third arm due to toxic fumes.



Inquiring minds need to know ....



Les Kearney

RV10 Wannabe

Tim(at)MyRV10.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:14 am Post subject: Priming in a confined space

I officially suggest a supplied air respirator for painting

and priming.  I did not use one myself, but used a good

silicon dual cartridge half-mask respirator.  A full face

one would be one step better yet, as you can absorb

chemicals through your eyes.  So use the advice of the

paint shops and real experts (not me) and use your best

judgment on what you want for protective gear for your

body.



As far as priming and explosions though, here was what I

had to do...living in Wisconsin and priming in zero degree

weather:



I had a kerosene torpedo heater as my garage heat.  You surely

wouldn't want that thing going off during a priming session.

So, I heated the garage to 75-80 degrees with the heater

in advance of the priming.  Then I unplugged the heater

and did the priming.  As soon as I finished priming, I rolled

open the garage door and the hot air carried all of the

visible fumes away real fast.  The hard part for me was that

I don't have a finished ceiling, so I had to open a rear

entrance door in the garage and point a fan up into the

ceiling to force the fumes out of the ceiling.



As soon as it was clear, I rolled the door down and

took a sniff and turned the heater back on.  I doubt with

most primers you'd build up the level of fumes necessary

to explode just from the offgassing primer, but again,

maybe consult experts on that, or maybe knock out

a small hole high in the garage wall for a small fan that

you can keep running during the primer drying time to

exhaust the fumes.  I will say that I absolutely was

aware of the fume/explosion risk, but tempered that

knowledge with a bit of practicality that there are indeed

upper and lower explosive limits to chemicals...and the

key is staying well away from the limits.  For me

though, I had good luck with the above.

Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Les Kearney wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Hi

 As part of my self education process I have been reading various links for

 priming info. 

 

 I noticed that many people print outside on sunny, warm days - an option I

 won't have in the winter when its -20C and snowing. 

 

 That being said, how does one *safely* prime in a heated garage. By safely I

 mean that I want to have a fuel air explosion caused by my natural gas

 garage heater as well as avoid growing a third arm due to toxic fumes.

 

 Inquiring minds need to know ....

 

 Les Kearney

 RV10 Wannabe

indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:42 am Post subject: Priming in a confined space

Prime only those parts that are likely to get scratched, high traffic areas. 

  Otherwise skip it and Alodine everything.



Keeps it light too.



John G. 409



Do Not Archive





 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Les Kearney <kearney(at)shaw.ca>

Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Priming in a confined space

Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2006 09:32:38 -0600






Hi

As part of my self education process I have been reading various links for

priming info.



I noticed that many people print outside on sunny, warm days - an option I

won't have in the winter when its -20C and snowing.



That being said, how does one *safely* prime in a heated garage. By safely 

I

mean that I want to have a fuel air explosion caused by my natural gas

garage heater as well as avoid growing a third arm due to toxic fumes.



Inquiring minds need to know ....



Les Kearney

RV10 Wannabe

jesse(at)itecusa.org
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:58 am Post subject: Priming in a confined space

I see World Primer War III coming right up.



Do not archive.



Jesse Saint

I-TEC, Inc.

jesse(at)itecusa.org

www.itecusa.org

W: 352-465-4545

C: 352-427-0285



--

Vern(at)teclabsinc.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 12:23 pm Post subject: Priming in a confined space

If it really is that cold when you paint keep an eye out for static

discharge. Just run a ground wire to the parts. It also helps keep dust

from being attracted to the parts during painting.



Vern (40324)

Do not archive

--

indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 12:51 pm Post subject: Priming in a confined space

Actually, A long, long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away!!!!



PRIMER WARS



COUNT DUKU, OR COUNT DONO



I MEAN i THINK THIS WAS BEFORE OUR TIME, BUT MAYBE THIS IS THE COUPLE 

HUNDRETH TIME.



dO noT aRCHIVE

[quote]From: "Jesse Saint" <jesse(at)itecusa.org>

Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: RE: Priming in a confined space

Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 14:56:51 -0400






I see World Primer War III coming right up.



Do not archive.



Jesse Saint

I-TEC, Inc.

jesse(at)itecusa.org

www.itecusa.org

W: 352-465-4545

C: 352-427-0285



--

LarryRosen

Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 415
Location: Medford, NJ

Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:43 pm Post subject: Priming in a confined space

A supplied air respirator makes all the difference in the world.  I 

started with a dual carbon filter respirator and for Xmas I got a hobby 

air.  The first time I used supplied air I didn't even know there were 

any fumes in the garage.  I could not smell a thing.  I cannot say the 

same for the carbon filter respirator.  A local RV-9 builder uses the 

exhaust from a shop vac (cleaned of course) to supply breathing air, and 

it works well.



I use Tim's method to keep the room safe from an explosion.  Heat it up, 

turn off the heater.  Paint away with an exhaust fan, and then open up 

the garage doors to let the fumes escape.



Larry Rosen

#356



Les Kearney wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hi

 As part of my self education process I have been reading various links for

 priming info. 



 I noticed that many people print outside on sunny, warm days - an option I

 won't have in the winter when its -20C and snowing. 



 That being said, how does one *safely* prime in a heated garage. By safely I

 mean that I want to have a fuel air explosion caused by my natural gas

 garage heater as well as avoid growing a third arm due to toxic fumes.



 Inquiring minds need to know ....



 Les Kearney

 RV10 Wannabe

_________________
Larry Rosen
#40356
N205EN (reserved)
<http>

Rick S.

Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 347
Location: Las Vegas

Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:44 pm Post subject: Priming in a confined space

Not only the heater but the WATER HEATER if it is in your garage....pilot light in there and the WHOOSH as it kicks off to reheat may be the last thing you hear.



Rick S.

40185



--

_________________
Rick S.
RV-10
40185

jjessen

Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 285
Location: OR

Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:55 pm Post subject: Priming in a confined space

Also, brush-less exhaust fan.   



--

jesse(at)itecusa.org
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:37 am Post subject: Priming in a confined space

Better yet, just go in there to paint with a lit cigarette and no mask and

get it over with.  "Too much hastle, this airplane building stuff!"  Just go

out and buy a Cessna.  Oh, wait...I mean...OK, go with the other suggestions

after all.



Do not archive.



Jesse Saint

I-TEC, Inc.

jesse(at)itecusa.org

www.itecusa.org

W: 352-465-4545

C: 352-427-0285



--

johngoodman

Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 530
Location: GA

Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:41 am Post subject: Re: Priming in a confined space

Les,

Have you considered getting somebody else to do it for you? Maybe you could make a deal with some paint shop.

John

_________________
#40572 Phase One complete in 2011

mgeans(at)provide.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 8:43 am Post subject: Priming in a confined space

Les,

I don't have an RV-10 or an RV anything.  But finally after

about a year of watching the post, I think I might actually

have 2 cents to say about something.  

There was also an excellent paint booth article in

Kitplanes in May of ’05.  They talk a lot about combustion

and keeping particulates from ignition sources and even how

to build an air filter/motor roll-around assembly.  It may

cost $7.50 if you are not a Kitplanes online member to

download the article, but I recently reviewed it from my

saved ’05 edition and it would be worth it to glean the

knowledge.  Here’s a link

http://www.kitplanes.com/issues/22_5/shop_talk/7103-1.phtml

 I painted my truck project 2 years ago and here is the

account, then a little to add to Tim's 2 cents about a roof

vent fan.

I was rebuilding a Nissan truck and did a frame up priming,

painting etc.  I too worked in cold Michigan.  I built a

booth from Wal-mart 4-mil "clear" plastic.  I had 2 box

fans that I duct taped as an air source and created an

approx 3' diameter plastic tube attached to the booth with

another box fan on the end as an exit fan.  The tube was

long enough to go outside during sessions and bring back in

when I was done. I built an assembly that held 3 16 x25

furnace filters in front of the exit fan.  With 2 sources

and one exit the booth "inflated" when in session.  I

covered the floor with plastic and duct taped all the edges

of the plastic "box" created by taping and fastening the

plastic to my open ceiling with 1x2 wood furring strips to

create a room within the garage.  If I did it again I would

have taped all the seams with duct tape as I did, then

placed 2 additional strips of tape to increase the contact

area of the seam.  But I also sand blasted in my booth,

which took a toll on the seams.  Sand blast - paint -

switch out parts - recycle sand and start over.  I also

used a kerosene "torpedo" heater and kept a thermometer in

the booth.  Heating the booth for painting and not have the

heat go to the rafters prepped my painting area much

quicker.  Some if not all paints have a working temperature

recommended for application.  I was using PPG industrial

paint.  I kept the sealed paints/primers/activators in a

cooler (for smell) in the house to stay within temperature.

 I would heat the booth to approximately 80 degrees or as

high as it would go when the unheated garage was 30 or

less.  I paid attention to the air temperature and also the

temperature of the substrate painting.  No good to have the

air 80 and the metal 55 when the paint calls for 65 degrees

or higher.  The booth worked really well once I ventilated

it.  At first it wasn't ventilated and would fog up quick.

 Also the bulging sides would create more room to walk

around a large part.

    I used my sandblasting hood (harbor freight and tools)

for painting also and scribed and broke 1/16 pieces of

Plexiglas from the local hardware and duct taped it into

the pocket in the hood.

(http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=38375

Here’s the hood next to the blasting unit.  I have seen the

hood for sale individually at our local retail store, but

can’t find it on the web.  A quick call to H.F. should turn

up a hood only availability) This sealed the opening from

paint getting into the hood and allowed good "glass" from

session to session as I replaced it.  In a paint mist, it

unavoidably gets on the Plexiglas and quickly degrades the

vision.  This kept paint from skin/eyes. I wore a $15 paint

suit from the paint shop and latex gloves, again from

harbor freight ($5/box/100pr).  In the end, with the suit,

gloves and hood skin exposure is virtually eliminated.  I

wore a 2 canister 1/2 mask with 3M charcoal filters and

"felt" pre filters (buy plenty, change every 2-3 sessions

or as needed).  This keeps the larger particulates from

saturating the charcoal filter.  

This did me very well and was a good alternate to a

positive flow hood, which I don't know if the vision

portion is replaceable and for how much, who knows. (like

in the article) Maybe it’s glass and can be cleaned with a

razor blade after each session, which would be ideal.  

Tip on 1/2 masks.  When painting you should smell no odor

whatsoever.  From my NBC (nuclear-biological-chemical)

training in the military, they taught that you should cover

the air inlets to a gas mask with your palms and attempt to

inhale, if the mask, gas or 1/2, sucks to your face with no

leaks, it is sealing properly.  If not then or after a

couple of minutes of painting perform a second sealing test

and it allows odors through, adjust the straps until it

does.  

    Fans.  Painting professionals will explain the dangers

of combustion and sources of ignition.  Light bulbs and fan

motors they pay attention to.  With the “clear” 4 mil

plastic all your lighting can be outside your painting

booth ( used 2 sets of halogen flood lamps)  and have light

bulbs/electricity outside the “fuel source”.   The box fans

providing a source of fresh air so the “fuel source” never

connects with the motor parts/switches/electricity.  The

exhaust fan had the 3 filters in front of it, so I was

confident that this would stop enough particulates to

degrade the air going into the fan from being combustible.

  So, if you don’t build a booth and use a roof fan that

has a compatible motor for a painting environment (refer to

Kitplanes article though the author’s motor looks to be a

bit the equivalent of a Lyc 720 on a RV-3).  

   Afterthoughts:  It was a couple of years ago, but I

think I even positioned the tornado heater in the garage

but far enough away from the fresh air fans that I had a

fresh air source that was also heated, but outside the

booth.  I used bricks to weigh down the plastic flap that

let the parts in-out (refer to paint booth flaps in

article).  I overlapped the side and the door like you

would overlap the 2 sides of a rain coat on a blustery day,

which when inflated pressed against one another and sealed

for a good air flow.  If I needed to exit/enter during a

session, I just opened the flap and stepped out and mad

sure that the 2 overlapped again so as not to lose air

pressure.

Hope this helps you and others out Les.  Sorry for the long

read.

Matt Geans,

Aspiring builder

On Mon, 02 Oct 2006 11:11:52 -0500

 Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>

 I officially suggest a supplied air respirator for

 painting

 and priming.  I did not use one myself, but used a good

 silicon dual cartridge half-mask respirator.  A full face

 one would be one step better yet, as you can absorb

 chemicals through your eyes.  So use the advice of the

 paint shops and real experts (not me) and use your best

 judgment on what you want for protective gear for your

 body.

 As far as priming and explosions though, here was what I

 had to do...living in Wisconsin and priming in zero

 degree

 weather:

 I had a kerosene torpedo heater as my garage heat.  You

 surely

 wouldn't want that thing going off during a priming

 session.

 So, I heated the garage to 75-80 degrees with the heater

 in advance of the priming.  Then I unplugged the heater

 and did the priming.  As soon as I finished priming, I

 rolled

 open the garage door and the hot air carried all of the

 visible fumes away real fast.  The hard part for me was

 that

 I don't have a finished ceiling, so I had to open a rear

 entrance door in the garage and point a fan up into the

 ceiling to force the fumes out of the ceiling.

 As soon as it was clear, I rolled the door down and

 took a sniff and turned the heater back on.  I doubt with

 most primers you'd build up the level of fumes necessary

 to explode just from the offgassing primer, but again,

 maybe consult experts on that, or maybe knock out

 a small hole high in the garage wall for a small fan that

 you can keep running during the primer drying time to

 exhaust the fumes.  I will say that I absolutely was

 aware of the fume/explosion risk, but tempered that

 knowledge with a bit of practicality that there are

 indeed

 upper and lower explosive limits to chemicals...and the

 key is staying well away from the limits.  For me

 though, I had good luck with the above.

 Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

 do not archive

 Les Kearney wrote:

 >

 <kearney(at)shaw.ca>

 >

 >Hi

 >As part of my self education process I have been reading

 various links for

 >priming info. 

 >

 >I noticed that many people print outside on sunny, warm

 days - an option I

 >won't have in the winter when its -20C and snowing. 

 >

 >That being said, how does one *safely* prime in a heated

 garage. By safely I

 >mean that I want to have a fuel air explosion caused by

 my natural gas

 >garage heater as well as avoid growing a third arm due

 to toxic fumes.

 >

 >Inquiring minds need to know ....

 >

 >Les Kearney

 >RV10 Wannabe

 >

 page,

 Forums!

 Admin.

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 8:22 pm Post subject: Priming in a confined space

Two years ago Hoyt Fleming (Boise - N727TF)the proud owner of a newly

painted experimental was having some touch-up done on one wing.  The

Painter (a true professional and veteran) had correctly drained the wing

tank.  Unfortunately, like so many experimental guys, he does not

regularly ground the aircraft in the hangar.  Secondly, he left the tank

cap ajar.  Third, he should have noticed when the hair on his arm began

to raise that the low humidity and friction from sanding was creating

static.  The ensuing combustion was quickly extinguished but the

internal tank began burning (smoldering) at the wing root.



Final outcome, the engine went to another builder, the rest was toast.

Want to take bets on how many of you guys working canopies aren't

regularly grounded?  Be safe, ground it from the beginning and continue

the good habit.  



The Turbanator



--

Rick S.

Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 347
Location: Las Vegas

Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:33 am Post subject: Priming in a confined space

John,



So what is the procedure THIS year....ground wire connected to ground first or aircraft first. It seemed the first point connect would change every year. FWIW, a headphone jack makes a nice grounding point in the exterior.



Rick S.

40185



do not archive



--

_________________
Rick S.
RV-10
40185

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 4:09 pm Post subject: Priming in a confined space

Fair questions.  Would you rather have a spark at the aircraft

connection point or at the ground?  Your question implies you are one of

those who is actually practicing the dark art of pointed hats (with

starts and planets affixed) and obsidian rods in their hand.



John

40600

Do not Archive



--

kearney(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 3:59 pm Post subject: Priming in a confined space

Phil  

   

Thanks for the info. I will check into it on Monday.  

   

Regards  

   

Les Kearney  

RV10 #643 – Inventorying a plethora of bags containing wee tiny tail kit parts  

   

Do not archive   

   

   

--

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