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dougsappllc(at)gmail.com
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 Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 4:19 pm Post subject: Main Air Tanks |
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All,Due to rapidly escalating prices for main air tanks out of China I am considering taking on a project to produce a stainless steel tank to replace the current std steel tanks which are getting rather hard to find. The new SS tanks will be built by a licensed tank manufacturing company and be certified at 900 to 1000 psi. These new stainless steel tanks while fairly expensive should be in fact a "lifetime tank", the last one you should ever have to purchase. Right now cost for a new, albeit old stock standard steel tank which was manufactured in the 80's or 90's is about $450.00. The new SS tanks would be of current mfg and would cost about $700.00 each. In order to price them at this price I would have to order them in 20 at a time and commit to a total of 60 tanks. Due to the rather large initial investment I am looking for a show of hands of who would be interested if I did stocked them.
Should enough folks step forward we will also be stocking the CJ emergency tank and if demand is there we will look into SS tanks for the Yak 52 also.
Looking forward to your comments.
Best from Omak,
Doug and Kathleen
[quote][b]
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McFly
Joined: 21 May 2012
Posts: 101
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
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| Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:02 pm Post subject: Main Air Tanks |
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I would be interested in an alternative for the Yak 50 as well (main and emergency bottles).
Todd McCutchanT-34A & Yak-50
Cell: (260) 402-1740
E-mail: todd(at)fastaircraft.com (todd(at)fastaircraft.com)
www.fastaircraft.com
On Mar 2, 2015, at 5:18 PM, doug sapp <dougsappllc(at)gmail.com (dougsappllc(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]All,Due to rapidly escalating prices for main air tanks out of China I am considering taking on a project to produce a stainless steel tank to replace the current std steel tanks which are getting rather hard to find. The new SS tanks will be built by a licensed tank manufacturing company and be certified at 900 to 1000 psi. These new stainless steel tanks while fairly expensive should be in fact a "lifetime tank", the last one you should ever have to purchase. Right now cost for a new, albeit old stock standard steel tank which was manufactured in the 80's or 90's is about $450.00. The new SS tanks would be of current mfg and would cost about $700.00 each. In order to price them at this price I would have to order them in 20 at a time and commit to a total of 60 tanks. Due to the rather large initial investment I am looking for a show of hands of who would be interested if I did stocked them.
Should enough folks step forward we will also be stocking the CJ emergency tank and if demand is there we will look into SS tanks for the Yak 52 also.
Looking forward to your comments.
Best from Omak,
Doug and Kathleen
| Quote: |
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
ist"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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[b]
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_________________
Todd McCutchan
Fast Aircraft
T-34A - N134FA
KDVT Hangar 33-13
Cell - 260.402.1740
Email: todd@fastaircraft.com
Skype: tmccutchan
Web: www.fastaircraft.com & www.flyams.com |
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Viperdoc
Joined: 19 Apr 2014
Posts: 484
Location: 08A
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| Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:07 pm Post subject: Main Air Tanks |
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Doug,
I'm interested.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Mar 2, 2015, at 6:18 PM, doug sapp <dougsappllc(at)gmail.com (dougsappllc(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]All,Due to rapidly escalating prices for main air tanks out of China I am considering taking on a project to produce a stainless steel tank to replace the current std steel tanks which are getting rather hard to find. The new SS tanks will be built by a licensed tank manufacturing company and be certified at 900 to 1000 psi. These new stainless steel tanks while fairly expensive should be in fact a "lifetime tank", the last one you should ever have to purchase. Right now cost for a new, albeit old stock standard steel tank which was manufactured in the 80's or 90's is about $450.00. The new SS tanks would be of current mfg and would cost about $700.00 each. In order to price them at this price I would have to order them in 20 at a time and commit to a total of 60 tanks. Due to the rather large initial investment I am looking for a show of hands of who would be interested if I did stocked them.
Should enough folks step forward we will also be stocking the CJ emergency tank and if demand is there we will look into SS tanks for the Yak 52 also.
Looking forward to your comments.
Best from Omak,
Doug and Kathleen
| Quote: |
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
ist"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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[b]
| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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Viperdoc |
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migfighter42(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:20 pm Post subject: Main Air Tanks |
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Doug,
I would be interested in a set for the Yak 52.
Bill Culberson
Red Star Aero Services
-------- Original message --------
From: doug sapp <dougsappllc(at)gmail.com>
Date:03/02/2015 6:18 PM (GMT-06:00)
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Cc:
Subject: Yak-List: Main Air Tanks
All,Due to rapidly escalating prices for main air tanks out of China I am considering taking on a project to produce a stainless steel tank to replace the current std steel tanks which are getting rather hard to find. The new SS tanks will be built by a licensed tank manufacturing company and be certified at 900 to 1000 psi. These new stainless steel tanks while fairly expensive should be in fact a "lifetime tank", the last one you should ever have to purchase. Right now cost for a new, albeit old stock standard steel tank which was manufactured in the 80's or 90's is about $450.00. The new SS tanks would be of current mfg and would cost about $700.00 each. In order to price them at this price I would have to order them in 20 at a time and commit to a total of 60 tanks. Due to the rather large initial investment I am looking for a show of hands of who would be interested if I did stocked them.
Should enough folks step forward we will also be stocking the CJ emergency tank and if demand is there we will look into SS tanks for the Yak 52 also.
Looking forward to your comments.
Best from Omak,
Doug and Kathleen
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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Ernie
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 513
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| Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:24 pm Post subject: Main Air Tanks |
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Doug,
Why not just manufacture an adapter to connect to scuba bottles? Not to mention you could get aluminum scuba tanks that weigh a lot less.
Ernie
On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 8:05 PM, Roger Kemp <f16viperdoc(at)me.com (f16viperdoc(at)me.com)> wrote:
[quote]Doug,
I'm interested.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Mar 2, 2015, at 6:18 PM, doug sapp <dougsappllc(at)gmail.com (dougsappllc(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | All,Due to rapidly escalating prices for main air tanks out of China I am considering taking on a project to produce a stainless steel tank to replace the current std steel tanks which are getting rather hard to find. The new SS tanks will be built by a licensed tank manufacturing company and be certified at 900 to 1000 psi. These new stainless steel tanks while fairly expensive should be in fact a "lifetime tank", the last one you should ever have to purchase. Right now cost for a new, albeit old stock standard steel tank which was manufactured in the 80's or 90's is about $450.00. The new SS tanks would be of current mfg and would cost about $700.00 each. In order to price them at this price I would have to order them in 20 at a time and commit to a total of 60 tanks. Due to the rather large initial investment I am looking for a show of hands of who would be interested if I did stocked them.
Should enough folks step forward we will also be stocking the CJ emergency tank and if demand is there we will look into SS tanks for the Yak 52 also.
Looking forward to your comments.
Best from Omak,
Doug and Kathleen
| Quote: |
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
ist"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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[b]
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dantpayne(at)icloud.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:26 pm Post subject: Main Air Tanks |
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Interested
Keep 'em Flyin',
Dan Payne
Owner, Pilot, A&P-IA
(423)-544-8946
Eagle Works Aviation
Dallas Bay Skypark
1824 E Crabtree Road
Hixson, TN 37343
"Where Airworthiness Means Business!"
On Mar 2, 2015, at 7:18 PM, doug sapp <dougsappllc(at)gmail.com (dougsappllc(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]All,Due to rapidly escalating prices for main air tanks out of China I am considering taking on a project to produce a stainless steel tank to replace the current std steel tanks which are getting rather hard to find. The new SS tanks will be built by a licensed tank manufacturing company and be certified at 900 to 1000 psi. These new stainless steel tanks while fairly expensive should be in fact a "lifetime tank", the last one you should ever have to purchase. Right now cost for a new, albeit old stock standard steel tank which was manufactured in the 80's or 90's is about $450.00. The new SS tanks would be of current mfg and would cost about $700.00 each. In order to price them at this price I would have to order them in 20 at a time and commit to a total of 60 tanks. Due to the rather large initial investment I am looking for a show of hands of who would be interested if I did stocked them.
Should enough folks step forward we will also be stocking the CJ emergency tank and if demand is there we will look into SS tanks for the Yak 52 also.
Looking forward to your comments.
Best from Omak,
Doug and Kathleen
| Quote: |
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
ist"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
//forums.matronics.com
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ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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[b]
| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
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pfstelwagon(at)earthlink.
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:35 pm Post subject: Main Air Tanks |
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The Aluminum Scuba Tanks have the same problem as the steel tanks, corrosion. It would take longer but would happen - look at the aluminum air filter case.
Frank
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
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wdjester(at)cox.net
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:38 pm Post subject: Main Air Tanks |
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I am in for a 52 Tank.
Sent from my iPad
[quote] On Mar 2, 2015, at 6:41 PM, Todd McCutchan <todd(at)fastaircraft.com> wrote:
I would be interested in an alternative for the Yak 50 as well (main and emergency bottles).
Todd McCutchan
T-34A & Yak-50
Cell: (260) 402-1740
E-mail: todd(at)fastaircraft.com
www.fastaircraft.com
> On Mar 2, 2015, at 5:18 PM, doug sapp <dougsappllc(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> All,
> Due to rapidly escalating prices for main air tanks out of China I am considering taking on a project to produce a stainless steel tank to replace the current std steel tanks which are getting rather hard to find. The new SS tanks will be built by a licensed tank manufacturing company and be certified at 900 to 1000 psi. These new stainless steel tanks while fairly expensive should be in fact a "lifetime tank", the last one you should ever have to purchase. Right now cost for a new, albeit old stock standard steel tank which was manufactured in the 80's or 90's is about $450.00. The new SS tanks would be of current mfg and would cost about $700.00 each. In order to price them at this price I would have to order them in 20 at a time and commit to a total of 60 tanks. Due to the rather large initial investment I am looking for a show of hands of who would be interested if I did stocked them.
>
> Should enough folks step forward we will also be stocking the CJ emergency tank and if demand is there we will look into SS tanks for the Yak 52 also
| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
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Ernie
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 513
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| Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:43 pm Post subject: Main Air Tanks |
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Aluminum scuba tanks are designed to be used in salt water, can be hydro tested at any scuba shop, can be replaced for $200, are rated for 4000 PSI, so it would be a looooooooong time before a tank corroded to the point where it couldn't be used to contain 750 PSI.
I understand the allure of a direct replacement so you don't need to worry about mounting. I'm assuming Doug is talking about these new tanks with the same form factor as stock.
Is that correct Doug??
Ernie
On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 8:34 PM, Frank Stelwagon <pfstelwagon(at)earthlink.net (pfstelwagon(at)earthlink.net)> wrote:
[quote] The Aluminum Scuba Tanks have the same problem as the steel tanks, corrosion. It would take longer but would happen - look at the aluminum air filter case.
Â
Frank
| Quote: |
et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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[b]
| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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dabear
Joined: 21 Jan 2011
Posts: 92
Location: Warrenton, VA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:29 pm Post subject: Main Air Tanks |
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I have to agree with the Scuba idea. Don’t manufacture a new tank, change the hold down and connector and use off the shelf technology cheaper. It would work for the main and emergency.  If you used scuba tanks you’d only have to change how they were mounted and the connection to the system.
Bear
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernest Martinez
Sent: Monday, March 02, 2015 8:43 PM
To: yak-list
Subject: Re: Main Air Tanks
Aluminum scuba tanks are designed to be used in salt water, can be hydro tested at any scuba shop, can be replaced for $200, are rated for 4000 PSI, so it would be a looooooooong time before a tank corroded to the point where it couldn't be used to contain 750 PSI.
I understand the allure of a direct replacement so you don't need to worry about mounting. I'm assuming Doug is talking about these new tanks with the same form factor as stock.
Is that correct Doug??
Ernie
On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 8:34 PM, Frank Stelwagon <pfstelwagon(at)earthlink.net (pfstelwagon(at)earthlink.net)> wrote: | Quote: |
The Aluminum Scuba Tanks have the same problem as the steel tanks, corrosion. It would take longer but would happen - look at the aluminum air filter case.
Frank
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01234567890123
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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wlannon(at)shaw.ca
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 8:03 pm Post subject: Main Air Tanks |
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I installed new tanks at restoration of my CJ and charged the emergency tank with nitrogen. Also do a top up after annual annual emergency gear swing. Hopefully this tank should remain free of corrosion.
Walt
From: doug sapp (dougsappllc(at)gmail.com)
Sent: Monday, March 02, 2015 4:18 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Main Air Tanks
All, Due to rapidly escalating prices for main air tanks out of China I am considering taking on a project to produce a stainless steel tank to replace the current std steel tanks which are getting rather hard to find. The new SS tanks will be built by a licensed tank manufacturing company and be certified at 900 to 1000 psi. These new stainless steel tanks while fairly expensive should be in fact a "lifetime tank", the last one you should ever have to purchase. Right now cost for a new, albeit old stock standard steel tank which was manufactured in the 80's or 90's is about $450.00. The new SS tanks would be of current mfg and would cost about $700.00 each. In order to price them at this price I would have to order them in 20 at a time and commit to a total of 60 tanks. Due to the rather large initial investment I am looking for a show of hands of who would be interested if I did stocked them.
Should enough folks step forward we will also be stocking the CJ emergency tank and if demand is there we will look into SS tanks for the Yak 52 also.
Looking forward to your comments.
Best from Omak,
Doug and Kathleen
[quote]
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
[b]
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pa3arw(at)ziggo.nl
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 12:14 am Post subject: Main Air Tanks |
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Doug,
If it is a “drop in replacement” I will certainly be interested in one for my YAK52.
Hans Oortman
PH-YAK
Op 03-03-15 01:18, doug sapp <[url=dougsappllc(at)gmail.com]dougsappllc(at)gmail.com[/url]> schreef:
[quote]All,
Due to rapidly escalating prices for main air tanks out of China I am considering taking on a project to produce a stainless steel tank to replace the current std steel tanks which are getting rather hard to find. The new SS tanks will be built by a licensed tank manufacturing company and be certified at 900 to 1000 psi. These new stainless steel tanks while fairly expensive should be in fact a "lifetime tank", the last one you should ever have to purchase. Right now cost for a new, albeit old stock standard steel tank which was manufactured in the 80's or 90's is about $450.00. The new SS tanks would be of current mfg and would cost about $700.00 each. In order to price them at this price I would have to order them in 20 at a time and commit to a total of 60 tanks. Due to the rather large initial investment I am looking for a show of hands of who would be interested if I did stocked them.
Should enough folks step forward we will also be stocking the CJ emergency tank and if demand is there we will look into SS tanks for the Yak 52 also.
Looking forward to your comments.
Best from Omak,
Doug and Kathleen
ail Forum -
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 5:22 am Post subject: Main Air Tanks |
|
|
FWIW, there are a few things I believe should be considered if one were
to simply change the hold down and connector and use off the shelf
technology. First, it may not be cheaper in a long run when you factor
in the cost of fabricating a new hold down; de-riveting the original
hold downs, re-riveting the removed rivets, and finally drilling and
riveting in the new hold downs. Second, the placement of the Scuba tank
most likely will have an affect on weight and balance thus requiring a
either an aircraft re-weighing or at a minimum, calculation of the new
weight, balance and CG of the airplane. Third, the weight of the Scuba
tank must be taken into account for structural considerations when
designing the hold down and the placement of the tank.
Finally, if one were to comply with the aircraft's Ops Limits, I believe
it does say any major modifications require approval of the FSDO. Now
you've got the FAA involved. You may not consider it a major
modification, but don't discount the insurance issue, should an accident
or incident occur. From FAA Order 8130.2G under the section covering
Experimental Exhibition:
The cognizant FSDO must be notified, and its response received in
writing, prior
to flying this aircraft after incorporation of a major change as defined
by 14 CFR § 21.93 in
order to determine whether new operating limitations will be required.
The FSDO response
should be entered in the aircraft's records and a copy sent the FAA
Aircraft Registration Branch,
AFS-750, P.O. Box 25504, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma 73125 for recording in
the aircraft’s
permanent records.
FAR 21.93 defines a major change as:
§ 21.93 Classification of changes in type design.
(a) In addition to changes in type design specified in paragraph (b) of
this section, changes in type design are
classified as minor and major. A‘‘minor change’’ is one that has no
appreciable effect on the weight, balance,
structural strength, reliability, operational characteristics, or other
characteristics affecting the airworthiness
of the product. _All other changes are ‘‘major changes’’_.
Given these facts and assuming one does not disregard the documents
governing the issuance of the Special Airworthiness Certificate and
Operating Limitations of the airplane, Doug's form, fit and function
replacement tanks are THE best solution, by far, IMHO.
A. Dennis Savarese
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1
On 3/2/2015 9:28 PM, DaBear wrote:
| Quote: |
I have to agree with the Scuba idea. Don’t manufacture a new tank,
change the hold down and connector and use off the shelf technology
cheaper. It would work for the main and emergency. If you used
scuba tanks you’d only have to change how they were mounted and the
connection to the system.
Bear
*From:*owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Ernest
Martinez
*Sent:* Monday, March 02, 2015 8:43 PM
*To:* yak-list
*Subject:* Re: Main Air Tanks
Aluminum scuba tanks are designed to be used in salt water, can be
hydro tested at any scuba shop, can be replaced for $200, are rated
for 4000 PSI, so it would be a looooooooong time before a tank
corroded to the point where it couldn't be used to contain 750 PSI.
I understand the allure of a direct replacement so you don't need to
worry about mounting. I'm assuming Doug is talking about these new
tanks with the same form factor as stock.
Is that correct Doug??
Ernie
On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 8:34 PM, Frank Stelwagon
<pfstelwagon(at)earthlink.net <mailto:pfstelwagon(at)earthlink.net>> wrote:
The Aluminum Scuba Tanks have the same problem as the steel tanks,
corrosion. It would take longer but would happen - look at the
aluminum air filter case.
Frank
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jan.mevis(at)informavia.b
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 5:38 am Post subject: Main Air Tanks |
|
|
Hi Dennis,
Your remarks also apply for European EASA country.
I doubt that the CAA authorities of the European countries where Yak's are
flying under Annexe II law, would accept scuba bottles as a replacement.
A newly-made, high-quality air bottle with the same dimensions would be
much easier to get approved.
And even then, quite some arguing will be necessary.
Jan
On 03/03/15 14:21, "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net>
wrote:
| Quote: |
<dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net>
FWIW, there are a few things I believe should be considered if one were
to simply change the hold down and connector and use off the shelf
technology. First, it may not be cheaper in a long run when you factor
in the cost of fabricating a new hold down; de-riveting the original
hold downs, re-riveting the removed rivets, and finally drilling and
riveting in the new hold downs. Second, the placement of the Scuba tank
most likely will have an affect on weight and balance thus requiring a
either an aircraft re-weighing or at a minimum, calculation of the new
weight, balance and CG of the airplane. Third, the weight of the Scuba
tank must be taken into account for structural considerations when
designing the hold down and the placement of the tank.
Finally, if one were to comply with the aircraft's Ops Limits, I believe
it does say any major modifications require approval of the FSDO. Now
you've got the FAA involved. You may not consider it a major
modification, but don't discount the insurance issue, should an accident
or incident occur. From FAA Order 8130.2G under the section covering
Experimental Exhibition:
The cognizant FSDO must be notified, and its response received in
writing, prior
to flying this aircraft after incorporation of a major change as defined
by 14 CFR § 21.93 in
order to determine whether new operating limitations will be required.
The FSDO response
should be entered in the aircraft's records and a copy sent the FAA
Aircraft Registration Branch,
AFS-750, P.O. Box 25504, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma 73125 for recording in
the aircraft¹s
permanent records.
FAR 21.93 defines a major change as:
§ 21.93 Classification of changes in type design.
(a) In addition to changes in type design specified in paragraph (b) of
this section, changes in type design are
classified as minor and major. AŒŒminor change¹¹ is one that has no
appreciable effect on the weight, balance,
structural strength, reliability, operational characteristics, or other
characteristics affecting the airworthiness
of the product. _All other changes are ŒŒmajor changes¹¹_.
Given these facts and assuming one does not disregard the documents
governing the issuance of the Special Airworthiness Certificate and
Operating Limitations of the airplane, Doug's form, fit and function
replacement tanks are THE best solution, by far, IMHO.
A. Dennis Savarese
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1
On 3/2/2015 9:28 PM, DaBear wrote:
>
> I have to agree with the Scuba idea. Don¹t manufacture a new tank,
> change the hold down and connector and use off the shelf technology
> cheaper. It would work for the main and emergency. If you used
> scuba tanks you¹d only have to change how they were mounted and the
> connection to the system.
>
> Bear
>
> *From:*owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Ernest
> Martinez
> *Sent:* Monday, March 02, 2015 8:43 PM
> *To:* yak-list
> *Subject:* Re: Main Air Tanks
>
> Aluminum scuba tanks are designed to be used in salt water, can be
> hydro tested at any scuba shop, can be replaced for $200, are rated
> for 4000 PSI, so it would be a looooooooong time before a tank
> corroded to the point where it couldn't be used to contain 750 PSI.
>
> I understand the allure of a direct replacement so you don't need to
> worry about mounting. I'm assuming Doug is talking about these new
> tanks with the same form factor as stock.
>
> Is that correct Doug??
>
> Ernie
>
> On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 8:34 PM, Frank Stelwagon
> <pfstelwagon(at)earthlink.net <mailto:pfstelwagon(at)earthlink.net>> wrote:
>
> The Aluminum Scuba Tanks have the same problem as the steel tanks,
> corrosion. It would take longer but would happen - look at the
> aluminum air filter case.
>
> Frank
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> *et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List*
>
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>
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>
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> **
> **
> **
> **
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> **
> **
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Ernie
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 513
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 5:56 am Post subject: Main Air Tanks |
|
|
All good points Dennis. Though  I wonder how many folks have contacted their FSDO after adding long range tanks, doing M-14 conversions, installing electronic ignitions and auto plug conversions.
I did a little searching last night, and better than scuba tanks are composite SCBA tanks used for emergency breathing apparatus. Very light weight, not prone to corrosion, and very similar in size to the original main tank, so the original mounts might be useable. The emergency bottle is still a bit of a challenge. But considering how many of our planes have modified battery boxes, a tank mount for a 10 pound bottle doesn't seem so daunting.
Granted, stainless OEM replacement tanks are the best option, albeit expensive. My only concern with them is that not being DOT approved, it will be as difficult to find someone to hydro check them, as the original tanks.
Ernie
On Tuesday, March 3, 2015, Jan Mevis <jan.mevis(at)informavia.be (jan.mevis(at)informavia.be)> wrote:
[quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: Jan Mevis <[url=javascript:;]jan.mevis(at)informavia.be[/url]>
Hi Dennis,
Your remarks also apply for European EASA country.
I doubt that the CAA authorities of the European countries where Yak's are
flying under Annexe II law, would accept scuba bottles as a replacement.
A newly-made, high-quality air bottle with the same dimensions would be
much easier to get approved.
And even then, quite some arguing will be necessary.
Jan
On 03/03/15 14:21, "A. Dennis Savarese" <[url=javascript:;]dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net[/url]>
wrote:
>--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese"
><[url=javascript:;]dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net[/url]>
>
>FWIW, there are a few things I believe should be considered if one were
>to simply change the hold down and connector and use off the shelf
>technology. First, it may not be cheaper in a long run when you factor
>in the cost of fabricating a new hold down; de-riveting the original
>hold downs, re-riveting the removed rivets, and finally drilling and
>riveting in the new hold downs. Second, the placement of the Scuba tank
>most likely will have an affect on weight and balance thus requiring a
>either an aircraft re-weighing or at a minimum, calculation of the new
>weight, balance and CG of the airplane. Third, the weight of the Scuba
>tank must be taken into account for structural considerations when
>designing the hold down and the placement of the tank.
>
>Finally, if one were to comply with the aircraft's Ops Limits, I believe
>it does say any major modifications require approval of the FSDO. Now
>you've got the FAA involved. You may not consider it a major
>modification, but don't discount the insurance issue, should an accident
>or incident occur. From FAA Order 8130.2G under the section covering
>Experimental Exhibition:
>
>The cognizant FSDO must be notified, and its response received in
>writing, prior
>to flying this aircraft after incorporation of a major change as defined
>by 14 CFR § 21.93 in
>order to determine whether new operating limitations will be required.
>The FSDO response
>should be entered in the aircraft's records and a copy sent the FAA
>Aircraft Registration Branch,
>AFS-750, P.O. Box 25504, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma 73125 for recording in
>the aircraftÄ…s
>permanent records.
>
>FAR 21.93 defines a major change as:
>
>§ 21.93 Classification of changes in type design.
>(a) In addition to changes in type design specified in paragraph (b) of
>this section, changes in type design are
>classified as minor and major. AŚŚminor changeąą is one that has no
>appreciable effect on the weight, balance,
>structural strength, reliability, operational characteristics, or other
>characteristics affecting the airworthiness
>of the product. _All other changes are ŚŚmajor changesąą_.
>
>Given these facts and assuming one does not disregard the documents
>governing the issuance of the Special Airworthiness Certificate and
>Operating Limitations of the airplane, Doug's form, fit and function
>replacement tanks are THE best solution, by far, IMHO.
>
>A. Dennis Savarese
>334-546-8182 (mobile)
>www.yak-52.com
>Skype - Yakguy1
>
>On 3/2/2015 9:28 PM, DaBear wrote:
>>
>> I have to agree with the Scuba idea. Donąt manufacture a new tank,
>> change the hold down and connector and use off the shelf technology
>> cheaper. It would work for the main and emergency.  If you used
>> scuba tanks youÄ…d only have to change how they were mounted and the
>> connection to the system.
>>
>> Bear
>>
>> *From:*[url=javascript:;]owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com[/url]
>> [mailto:[url=javascript:;]owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com[/url]] *On Behalf Of *Ernest
>> Martinez
>> *Sent:* Monday, March 02, 2015 8:43 PM
>> *To:* yak-list
>> *Subject:* Re: Main Air Tanks
>>
>> Aluminum scuba tanks are designed to be used in salt water, can be
>> hydro tested at any scuba shop, can be replaced for $200, are rated
>> for 4000 PSI, so it would be a looooooooong time before a tank
>> corroded to the point where it couldn't be used to contain 750 PSI.
>>
>> I understand the allure of a direct replacement so you don't need to
>> worry about mounting. I'm assuming Doug is talking about these new
>> tanks with the same form factor as stock.
>>
>> Is that correct Doug??
>>
>> Ernie
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 8:34 PM, Frank Stelwagon
>> <[url=javascript:;]pfstelwagon(at)earthlink.net[/url] <mailto:[url=javascript:;]pfstelwagon(at)earthlink.net[/url]>> wrote:
>>
>>Â Â Â The Aluminum Scuba Tanks have the same problem as the steel tanks,
>>   corrosion. It would take longer but would happen - look at the
>>Â Â Â aluminum air filter case.
>>
>>Â Â Â Frank
>>
>>Â Â Â *Â *
>>
>>Â Â Â *Â *
>>
>>Â Â Â *et="_blank">[url=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List*]http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List*[/url]
>>
>>Â Â Â *tp://forums.matronics.com*
>>
>>Â Â Â *_blank">[url=http://www.matronics.com/contribution*]http://www.matronics.com/contribution*[/url]
>>
>>Â Â Â *Â *
>>
>> *Â *
>> *Â *
>> **
>> **
>> **
>> **
>> **
>> *[url=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List*]http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List*[/url]
>> **
>> **
>> *http://forums.matronics.com*
>> **
>> **
>> **
>> **
>> *[url=http://www.matronics.com/contribution*]http://www.matronics.com/contribution*[/url]
>> **
>> *Â *
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
>
>
>
>
>
===========
List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
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dabear
Joined: 21 Jan 2011
Posts: 92
Location: Warrenton, VA
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:45 am Post subject: Main Air Tanks |
|
|
First, let me say I support Doug, always have, always will. He has supported this community for decades.
Agreed, there are a few things that need to be considered to change to SCUBA. However, let's start with the cost of new bottles. If I have to replace the main, I'm close to needing to replace the emergency, that’s $700 each or $1400.
Now, let's consider that Doug designs and builds a replacement hold down for 2 scuba bottles and the air connections. Worst case it's probably around $200 (for 60 sets - let's play apples to apples). Then we add it up...
$200 --- Hold down and connection
$320 ---- 4 hours for removal and install
$400 ---- 2 SCUBA bottles
$ 80 --- 1 hour for new W&B
As to the paperwork in the US. I could argue that there is no appreciable effect on W&B, etc. however, let's say there is and you have to/want to submit the paperwork, No different than the paperwork for the upgraded engine, fuel tanks, smoke system, etc.
Come on, better tanks, MUCH higher safety margin since the tanks support 3k air pressure. You can go with aluminum tanks which would weigh about the same. So the big concern is attachment and structural support. Please remember what used to be there in the form of radio, etc.
Or $1,000 for a system that is better than before, easier to maintain, and now cheaper and easier to test and replace. Remember, you take the tank to the local dive shop for annual testing if you want and find a problem go get a new tank for less than HALF of the cost of an old CJ/Yak tank.
Come on, we've modified these planes from one end to the other. M14P/PF, new exhaust, oil shut off, larger aluminum water trap, pre-oiler, fuel tanks, smoke systems, etc. and on and on. We've done that to improve performance, improve safety, and make it easier and safer to maintain.
Replacing a tank with a more expensive tank with no other improvements....at least really, seriously, think about an improvement
No offense was intended in the above post, please don't take any. They are your airplanes. Make your own decision.
Thanks,
Bear
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dabear
Joined: 21 Jan 2011
Posts: 92
Location: Warrenton, VA
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:45 am Post subject: Main Air Tanks |
|
|
Last point, just did some QUICK searching. Aluminum bottles are going to cost less than $150 each and weigh less than 25lbs empty, some as low as 15lbs. Go fiber and it will cost a little more and weigh even less.  So the W&B changes are extremely small.
Fly safe and Have fun….
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernest Martinez
Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2015 8:55 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Main Air Tanks
All good points Dennis. Though I wonder how many folks have contacted their FSDO after adding long range tanks, doing M-14 conversions, installing electronic ignitions and auto plug conversions.
I did a little searching last night, and better than scuba tanks are composite SCBA tanks used for emergency breathing apparatus. Very light weight, not prone to corrosion, and very similar in size to the original main tank, so the original mounts might be useable. The emergency bottle is still a bit of a challenge. But considering how many of our planes have modified battery boxes, a tank mount for a 10 pound bottle doesn't seem so daunting.
Granted, stainless OEM replacement tanks are the best option, albeit expensive. My only concern with them is that not being DOT approved, it will be as difficult to find someone to hydro check them, as the original tanks.
Ernie
On Tuesday, March 3, 2015, Jan Mevis <jan.mevis(at)informavia.be (jan.mevis(at)informavia.be)> wrote: | Quote: |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Jan Mevis <[url=javascript:;]jan.mevis(at)informavia.be[/url]>
Hi Dennis,
Your remarks also apply for European EASA country.
I doubt that the CAA authorities of the European countries where Yak's are
flying under Annexe II law, would accept scuba bottles as a replacement.
A newly-made, high-quality air bottle with the same dimensions would be
much easier to get approved.
And even then, quite some arguing will be necessary.
Jan
On 03/03/15 14:21, "A. Dennis Savarese" <[url=javascript:;]dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net[/url]>
wrote:
| Quote: | --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese"
<[url=javascript:;]dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net[/url]>
FWIW, there are a few things I believe should be considered if one were
to simply change the hold down and connector and use off the shelf
technology. First, it may not be cheaper in a long run when you factor
in the cost of fabricating a new hold down; de-riveting the original
hold downs, re-riveting the removed rivets, and finally drilling and
riveting in the new hold downs. Second, the placement of the Scuba tank
most likely will have an affect on weight and balance thus requiring a
either an aircraft re-weighing or at a minimum, calculation of the new
weight, balance and CG of the airplane. Third, the weight of the Scuba
tank must be taken into account for structural considerations when
designing the hold down and the placement of the tank.
Finally, if one were to comply with the aircraft's Ops Limits, I believe
it does say any major modifications require approval of the FSDO. Now
you've got the FAA involved. You may not consider it a major
modification, but don't discount the insurance issue, should an accident
or incident occur. From FAA Order 8130.2G under the section covering
Experimental Exhibition:
The cognizant FSDO must be notified, and its response received in
writing, prior
to flying this aircraft after incorporation of a major change as defined
by 14 CFR § 21.93 in
order to determine whether new operating limitations will be required.
The FSDO response
should be entered in the aircraft's records and a copy sent the FAA
Aircraft Registration Branch,
AFS-750, P.O. Box 25504, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma 73125 for recording in
the aircraftÄ…s
permanent records.
FAR 21.93 defines a major change as:
§ 21.93 Classification of changes in type design.
(a) In addition to changes in type design specified in paragraph (b) of
this section, changes in type design are
classified as minor and major. AŚŚminor changeąą is one that has no
appreciable effect on the weight, balance,
structural strength, reliability, operational characteristics, or other
characteristics affecting the airworthiness
of the product. _All other changes are ŚŚmajor changesąą_.
Given these facts and assuming one does not disregard the documents
governing the issuance of the Special Airworthiness Certificate and
Operating Limitations of the airplane, Doug's form, fit and function
replacement tanks are THE best solution, by far, IMHO.
A. Dennis Savarese
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1
On 3/2/2015 9:28 PM, DaBear wrote:
>
> I have to agree with the Scuba idea. DonÄ…t manufacture a new tank,
> change the hold down and connector and use off the shelf technology
> cheaper. It would work for the main and emergency. If you used
> scuba tanks youÄ…d only have to change how they were mounted and the
> connection to the system.
>
> Bear
>
> *From:*[url=javascript:;]owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com[/url]
> [mailto:[url=javascript:;]owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com[/url]] *On Behalf Of *Ernest
> Martinez
> *Sent:* Monday, March 02, 2015 8:43 PM
> *To:* yak-list
> *Subject:* Re: Main Air Tanks
>
> Aluminum scuba tanks are designed to be used in salt water, can be
> hydro tested at any scuba shop, can be replaced for $200, are rated
> for 4000 PSI, so it would be a looooooooong time before a tank
> corroded to the point where it couldn't be used to contain 750 PSI.
>
> I understand the allure of a direct replacement so you don't need to
> worry about mounting. I'm assuming Doug is talking about these new
> tanks with the same form factor as stock.
>
> Is that correct Doug??
>
> Ernie
>
> On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 8:34 PM, Frank Stelwagon
> <[url=javascript:;]pfstelwagon(at)earthlink.net[/url] <mailto:[url=javascript:;]pfstelwagon(at)earthlink.net[/url]>> wrote:
>
> The Aluminum Scuba Tanks have the same problem as the steel tanks,
> corrosion. It would take longer but would happen - look at the
> aluminum air filter case.
>
> Frank
>
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
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| Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 7:29 am Post subject: Main Air Tanks |
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Yes, they are your airplanes and each will do as he wants. Yes,
countless modifications have been done to these airplanes without any
ill effect. I guess I'm just more skeptical than many, particularly
with regards to structural integrity of the airframe under loadon these
30-40 year old airplanes. I'm pretty sure a Scuba tank of the same
volume, not pressure, is going to weigh a whole lot more than the
original tank or a SS replacement tank. That would entail a stronger
support system, especially when one takes into account G loading. That
is why I eluded to structural considerations.
But, to each his own. I too support Doug and in this case, support his
direct replacement SS tank even if it costs a bit more.
Dennis
A. Dennis Savarese
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1
On 3/3/2015 8:37 AM, DaBear wrote:
[quote]
First, let me say I support Doug, always have, always will. He has supported this community for decades.
Agreed, there are a few things that need to be considered to change to SCUBA. However, let's start with the cost of new bottles. If I have to replace the main, I'm close to needing to replace the emergency, that’s $700 each or $1400.
Now, let's consider that Doug designs and builds a replacement hold down for 2 scuba bottles and the air connections. Worst case it's probably around $200 (for 60 sets - let's play apples to apples). Then we add it up...
$200 --- Hold down and connection
$320 ---- 4 hours for removal and install
$400 ---- 2 SCUBA bottles
$ 80 --- 1 hour for new W&B
As to the paperwork in the US. I could argue that there is no appreciable effect on W&B, etc. however, let's say there is and you have to/want to submit the paperwork, No different than the paperwork for the upgraded engine, fuel tanks, smoke system, etc.
Come on, better tanks, MUCH higher safety margin since the tanks support 3k air pressure. You can go with aluminum tanks which would weigh about the same. So the big concern is attachment and structural support. Please remember what used to be there in the form of radio, etc.
Or $1,000 for a system that is better than before, easier to maintain, and now cheaper and easier to test and replace. Remember, you take the tank to the local dive shop for annual testing if you want and find a problem go get a new tank for less than HALF of the cost of an old CJ/Yak tank.
Come on, we've modified these planes from one end to the other. M14P/PF, new exhaust, oil shut off, larger aluminum water trap, pre-oiler, fuel tanks, smoke systems, etc. and on and on. We've done that to improve performance, improve safety, and make it easier and safer to maintain.
Replacing a tank with a more expensive tank with no other improvements....at least really, seriously, think about an improvement
No offense was intended in the above post, please don't take any. They are your airplanes. Make your own decision.
Thanks,
Bear
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:38 am Post subject: Main Air Tanks |
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I totally support Doug, and I am not going to put any scuba tanks into my Yak-50, thank you very much anyway. Although Bear/Ernie, if you come up with a plan and a kit for installing them, I'd love to see it. Nothing wrong with a "Plan B".
That said, this is not an "either/or" situation. To those that swear by scuba tanks then run with it yourselves, but please don't minimize the ideas and plans of others by so doing.
Just saying.
Mark
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cjpilot710(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:42 am Post subject: Main Air Tanks |
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I love this list! At seeing Doug's proposal, I thought - -"There goes good old Doug, looking after us guys - AGAIN". Than I see Dead Bear's & The Geek's scuba idea, ( modernist both ) and read Dennis concerns. Now at least I have something to think about when it comes time to make that decision ( sooner most likely than later ). It nice to have a "plan B". C Plan anyone? 
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
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