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flap deflection question

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rowlandcarson(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 12:33 pm Post subject: flap deflection question

I spent most of today fiddling with the flap actuating pushrod, trying to get an acceptable range of movement in the flaps. Eventually got to the state where the port flap was travelling 26.3 degrees and the starboard one 26.9 degrees. They both looked pretty well-aligned with the wing/flap template when retracted. I wondered if this is an acceptable amount of differential.



Then I thought I ought to check the movement with the outrigger legs fitted. After fitting them, the extended angles of both flaps are closely similar to those recorded before I fitted the outriggers, but the retracted positions are both drooping somewhat. The travel now is 25.3 degrees (port) and 26.0 degrees (starboard).



Pushing down on the outrigger legs causes the flaps to droop a bit more, and pulling up on them allows the flaps to adopt the previously-observed fully retracted position.



I think I have assembled the outrigger mechanism correctly and the outrigger legs are locking down very securely. Is there something I might have missed that causes this droop? Will air loads pull the flaps into the fully retracted position when aloft? What, if anything, can (or should) I do about it?



All input welcomed.



in friendship



Rowland



| Rowland Carson          ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...

| <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com>            http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk

| Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson      Facebook: Rowland Carson

| pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson

rowlandcarson(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:01 am Post subject: flap deflection question

On 9 Apr 2015, at 21:32, Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   the port flap was travelling 26.3 degrees and the starboard one 26.9 degrees. They both looked pretty well-aligned with the wing/flap template when retracted. I wondered if this is an acceptable amount of differential.


	


 	  Quote: 	
		   I thought I ought to check the movement with the outrigger legs fitted. After fitting them, the extended angles of both flaps are closely similar to those recorded before I fitted the outriggers, but the retracted positions are both drooping somewhat. The travel now is 25.3 degrees (port) and 26.0 degrees (starboard).


	


 	  Quote: 	
		   What, if anything, can (or should) I do about it?


	


Looks like no-one has any ideas on this question, so I guess I’ll have to ask the factory . . . .



in friendship



Rowland



| Rowland Carson          ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...

| <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com>            http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk

| Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson      Facebook: Rowland Carson

| pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson

Fred Klein

Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503

Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:08 am Post subject: flap deflection question

Rowland…can you quantify “drooping somewhat”?



Personally, I gave up on attempting perfection long ago and have since settled on striving for excellence…while reminding myself that my goal is to get Ms. Europa up in the air.



Fred

A194



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Apr 12, 2015, at 8:59 AM, Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 On 9 Apr 2015, at 21:32, Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 

> the port flap was travelling 26.3 degrees and the starboard one 26.9 degrees. They both looked pretty well-aligned with the wing/flap template when retracted. I wondered if this is an acceptable amount of differential.

 

> I thought I ought to check the movement with the outrigger legs fitted. After fitting them, the extended angles of both flaps are closely similar to those recorded before I fitted the outriggers, but the retracted positions are both drooping somewhat. The travel now is 25.3 degrees (port) and 26.0 degrees (starboard).

 

> What, if anything, can (or should) I do about it?

 

 Looks like no-one has any ideas on this question, so I guess I’ll have to ask the factory . . . .

 

 in friendship

 

 Rowland

 

 | Rowland Carson          ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...

 | <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com>            http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk

 | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson      Facebook: Rowland Carson

 | pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson

rowlandcarson(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 1:54 pm Post subject: flap deflection question

On 12 Apr 2015, at 18:07, Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Rowland…can you quantify “drooping somewhat”?


	


Fred - I quoted the numbers both in my original posting of 9th April, and in my edited version today.



26.3 minus 25.3 is 1 degree droop (port) and 26.9 minus 26.0 is 0.9 degree droop (stbd).



With the weight of the outriggers, both flaps seem reluctant to come firmly up to the retracted position, and can easily be wiggled up & down a bit by gentle pushing up & down on the outrigger legs, which seem to have a big mechanical advantage on the rest of the mechanism.



Obviously folk with completed aeroplanes can’t easily check if theirs behave the same as mine unless they have a dolly to support the fuselage while doing operating the retract lever.



Maybe in flight the airflow will support the outrigger legs more towards the horizontal.



in friendship



Rowland



| Rowland Carson          ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...

| <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com>            http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk

| Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson      Facebook: Rowland Carson

| pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson

wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 2:48 pm Post subject: flap deflection question

Fred

 Mine have about 1 deg difference down.Â Â  To make the angle the same when retracted i put in a stop as recommended by bud.

 Will

  --> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com (fklein(at)orcasonline.com)>

 

 Rowlandâ€¦can you quantify â€œdrooping somewhatâ€?

 

 Personally, I gave up on attempting perfection long ago and have since settled on striving for excellenceâ€¦while reminding myself that my goal is to get Ms. Europa up in the air.

 

 Fred

 A194

 

 > On Apr 12, 2015, at 8:59 AM, Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com (rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 >

 > --> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com (rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com)>

 >

 > On 9 Apr 2015, at 21:32, Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com (rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 >

 >> the port flap was travelling 26.3 degrees and the starboard one 26.9 degrees. They both looked pretty well-aligned with the wing/flap template when retracted. I wondered if this is an acceptable amount of differential.

 >

 >> I thought I ought to check the movement with the outrigger legs fitted. After fitting them, the extended angles of both flaps are closely similar to those recorded before I fitted the outriggers, but the retracted positions are both drooping somewhat. The travel now is 25.3 degrees (port) and 26.0 degrees (starboard).

 >

 >> What, if anything, can (or should) I do about it?

 >

 > Looks like no-one has any ideas on this question, so I guess Iâ€™ll have to ask the factory . . . .

 >

 > in friendship

 >

 > Rowland

 >

 > | Rowland CarsonÂ  Â  Â  Â  Â  ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...

 > | <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com (rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com)>Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk

 > | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carsonÂ  Â  Â  Facebook: Rowland Carson

 > | pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 

 

 

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  [quote][b]

Fred Klein

Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503

Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 5:00 pm Post subject: flap deflection question

Rowland…my apologies…I was unclear. Yes, I saw your degree measurements, and when you used the term “drooping somewhat” my mind immediately pictured a misalignment of the flap trailing edge with that of the aileron (in neutral position) and I was wondering if you had a measurement in inches or centimeters between the two…Fred



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Apr 12, 2015, at 2:53 PM, Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 On 12 Apr 2015, at 18:07, Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com> wrote:

 

> Rowland…can you quantify “drooping somewhat”?

 

 Fred - I quoted the numbers both in my original posting of 9th April, and in my edited version today.

 

 26.3 minus 25.3 is 1 degree droop (port) and 26.9 minus 26.0 is 0.9 degree droop (stbd).

 

 With the weight of the outriggers, both flaps seem reluctant to come firmly up to the retracted position, and can easily be wiggled up & down a bit by gentle pushing up & down on the outrigger legs, which seem to have a big mechanical advantage on the rest of the mechanism.

 

 Obviously folk with completed aeroplanes can’t easily check if theirs behave the same as mine unless they have a dolly to support the fuselage while doing operating the retract lever.

 

 Maybe in flight the airflow will support the outrigger legs more towards the horizontal.

 

 in friendship

 

 Rowland

 

 | Rowland Carson          ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...

 | <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com>            http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk

 | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson      Facebook: Rowland Carson

 | pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 5:48 pm Post subject: flap deflection question

Roland and William,

 One degree or a bit less is about what the slop in the system gives you no  matter how hard you work at it.

  

 The flap tube, when floating just off the baggage bay wall, is flexible  enough that the flaps float in either the up or down position, nothing should  bind or be forced.

  

 I prefer putting stops on the up point on the left and right sides of the  flap tube, with the mono flap actuator tube all the way forward (gear up) and  the flap tube just touching the stops.  Then I drilled the top hole on each  flap arm to set the flap incidence perfectly.  I dropped the gear and sure  enough, the flaps were off nearly a degree.  

  

 How?  I was so careful, how could it be off that far?  

  

 Each flap is set with an about distance from the wing closeout, then we  measure with a micrometer for the flap pin and eyeball the pin hole.  We  take our string aligned flap bracket holes, whack the bulkhead to get the hinge  supports to fit and do our best to get the hinges level.  Finally, we align  a bent tube to the flap drive pins and try to align the hinge arms.  Itâ€™s a  miracle if we get it to within a degree, from up to down but we do.  The  flaps are quite flexible and can be moved slightly by hand with light pressure  in either the up or down position.  If the ailerons arenâ€™t binding and a  proper Annex E is accomplished, and the incidence is set right, the flaps look  even by eye with the gear up (as shown in my trimming guide), the ailerons are  even also with the flaps (tips also) and the plane will fly level with only the  slightest of stick pressure.  That can be fixed by using the techniques in  my trimming document.

  

 Enjoy.

  

 Regards,

 Bud Yerly

  

  

   From: William Daniell (wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com) 

 Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2015 6:47 PM

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Subject: Re: flap deflection question

  



  

Fred

Mine have about 1 deg difference down.   To make  the angle the same when retracted i put in a stop as recommended by  bud.

Will

 

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[quote]



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

[b]

rowlandcarson(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 12:56 am Post subject: flap deflection question

On 13 Apr 2015, at 02:46, Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   One degree or a bit less is about what the slop in the system gives you no matter how hard you work at it.


	


Bud - thanks for that reassurance. I was quite surprised and worried when I discovered how much the weight of the outriggers affected the previously-crisp “up” position of the flaps.



There is one thing in the manual that seems a bit unclear and perhaps you can clarify it for me. In Annex E it says:



"Check that the bolt through the slot in OR5 is 5mm (3/16”) to 7mm (1/4”) from the end of the slot when the outriggers are down.”



Which end of the slot should that clearance measurement be taken from? One of the bolts in my OR5s is about central in the slot (so about 5mm clearance each side) and the other is quite near the end of the slot (although I can’t now remember _which_ end). Both outriggers are firmly locked down.



in friendship



Rowland



| Rowland Carson          ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...

| <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com>            http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk

| Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson      Facebook: Rowland Carson

| pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson

JonSmith

Joined: 21 May 2010
Posts: 110

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 1:27 am Post subject: Re: flap deflection question

Hi Rowland,

It's the forward end of the slot where the gap is important.  It's so that on the ground the flaps can "bounce" up and down due to the natural play in the system without unlocking the outrigger.  If the gap was too small or non existent then if the flap bounced up when say taxying over a bump then the upward movement of the flap might unlock the outrigger.

_________________
G-TERN
Classic Mono

rowlandcarson(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 1:39 am Post subject: flap deflection question

On 13 Apr 2015, at 10:27, JonSmith <jonsmitheuropa(at)tiscali.co.uk> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   It's the forward end of the slot where the gap is important.  It's so that on the ground the flaps can "bounce" up and down due to the natural play in the system without unlocking the outrigger.  If the gap was too small or non existent then if the flap bounced up when say taxying over a bump then the upward movement of the flap might unlock the outrigger.


	


Jon - thanks for that info. I have the nasty feeling from memory that the bolt near the end of the slot is indeed at the forward end. I’ll have to check again when next rigged. If that is the case, I wonder what my options are to correct it?



in friendship



Rowland



| Rowland Carson          ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...

| <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com>            http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk

| Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson      Facebook: Rowland Carson

| pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 11:44 am Post subject: flap deflection question

Rowland,

 About centered is what I try for.  I'll take it if it is within 3/16 and locks.  I'm afraid the droopy leg syndrome was my nemesis.  Darn I hate those legs.

 

 

 Bud

 

 

 Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID

 

 On Apr 13, 2015 5:01 AM, Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com> wrote: 

  --> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com>

 

 On 13 Apr 2015, at 02:46, Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com> wrote:

 

 > One degree or a bit less is about what the slop in the system gives you no matter how hard you work at it.

 

 Bud - thanks for that reassurance. I was quite surprised and worried when I discovered how much the weight of the outriggers affected the previously-crisp â€œupâ€ position of the flaps.

 

 There is one thing in the manual that seems a bit unclear and perhaps you can clarify it for me. In Annex E it says:

 

 "Check that the bolt through the slot in OR5 is 5mm (3/16â€) to 7mm (1/4â€) from the end of the slot when the outriggers are down.â€

 

 Which end of the slot should that clearance measurement be taken from? One of the bolts in my OR5s is about central in the slot (so about 5mm clearance each side) and the other is quite near the end of the slot (although I canâ€™t now remember _which_ end). Both  outriggers are firmly locked down.

 

 in friendship

 

 Rowland

 

 | Rowland Carson          ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...

 | <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com>             http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk

 | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson      Facebook: Rowland Carson

 | pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson

 

 

 

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