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Wing walk area delamination?

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Richard Lamprey

Joined: 15 Jul 2011
Posts: 95
Location: Kenya

Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:41 am Post subject: Wing walk area delamination?

Hi,  my wing-walk area , pilots side, especially spar-forward, is softer and springier than it used to be.  It used to be hard as a rock.  Maybe with all the getting in and out, especially moving forward to the leading edge, has caused some delamination.  Has anyone else had this problem, and how did they solve it?

Thanks, best, Richard

Kenya Europa Classic Mono Reg 5Y-LRY

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 1:16 am Post subject: Wing walk area delamination?

Hi Richard,

I know one builder who had a similar problem by simply seating in that area while working on the aircraft. His body heat, along with a hot day, caused the softening.

Not sure what he did, if anything. He didn't have any delaminating.



Cheers,

Tim 



Tim Ward

12 Waiwetu Street,

Fendalton,

Christchurch, 8052

New Zealand



ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz



Mob +64 210640221

 	  Quote: 	
		   On 9/12/2016, at 4:41 PM, Richard Lamprey <lamprey.richard(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 Hi,  my wing-walk area , pilots side, especially spar-forward, is softer and springier than it used to be.  It used to be hard as a rock.  Maybe with all the getting in and out, especially moving forward to the leading edge, has caused some delamination.  Has anyone else had this problem, and how did they solve it?

 Thanks, best, Richard

 Kenya Europa Classic Mono Reg 5Y-LRY

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=463794#463794

John Wighton

Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 242

Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 1:21 am Post subject: Re: Wing walk area delamination?

Richard,

I would make an immediate inspection of the are using a boroscope, if the skin is compromised in this area there may be a significant reduction in strength. The delaminated skin will only transfer loads in tension (top skin = negative G), therefore you may have a reduction in ability to transfer positive G loads to the fwd pickup.  Luckily the spar does much of the work, but the skins work for torsion and to transfer drag/antidrag loads via shear into the fwd/aft pickups.



If it is delaminated the repair may need to be more than localised.



Did you know Dr Joyce has some spare wings from kit #506?



I hope it turns out to be more benign than it at first appears.



Regards

JW

_________________
John Wighton
Europa XS trigear G-IPOD

dg.watts(at)talktalk.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 1:40 am Post subject: Wing walk area delamination?

Hi Richard,



Yes I have had it a couple of times and dealt with it on 3 others. Seen in the right light you will usually see what looks like a high area (like a big low bubble).



Mark the outer limits of this bubble with a marker or tape.



Now the way to sort it out is to drill a series of 1/8 inch or so holes around towards the outer limits of the area and then leave it for a while to settle (maybe overnight or a day or so). 



I usually tape and cover over the rest of the wing outside of the area with plastic sheet. Now get a syringe and mix up some resin and inject it in to one of the holes and keep injecting until it comes out of each of the other holes.

You will have to tape over each hole after the first bit of resin comes out of that hole to stop all of it coming out of that one.

Once you have got resin out of all of the holes you know it has spread throughout the area and you are done.



I usually cover the area with plastic sheet and lay something flexible and soft and a little weighty over the area like a small bag of sand.



After it has all set you just need to make the area good again, which is the worst part of the job.



Dave Watts

G-BXDY Classic Monowheel 2,300 hours.



 	  Quote: 	
		   On 9 Dec 2016, at 08:41, Richard Lamprey <lamprey.richard(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 Hi,  my wing-walk area , pilots side, especially spar-forward, is softer and springier than it used to be.  It used to be hard as a rock.  Maybe with all the getting in and out, especially moving forward to the leading edge, has caused some delamination.  Has anyone else had this problem, and how did they solve it?

 Thanks, best, Richard

 Kenya Europa Classic Mono Reg 5Y-LRY

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=463794#463794

JonathanMilbank

Joined: 14 Apr 2012
Posts: 394
Location: Aberdeen area

Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 1:47 am Post subject: Re: Wing walk area delamination?

If memory serves me, a very long time ago Peter Kember had the same thing and effected a repair in the same way as Doug describes above. I think that the reason I haven't suffered in the same way (yet) might be because I added a couple of extra layers of glass cloth to my walkways 20 years ago.

Richard Lamprey

Joined: 15 Jul 2011
Posts: 95
Location: Kenya

Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:54 am Post subject: Re: Wing walk area delamination?

Hi everyone, thanks for the comments here, and also off-thread by Erich and David (of Swift).  Putting it all together, I read that the extent of my delamination is not enough to worry about unduly, but to monitor and repair according to the Europa guidelines if it gets much larger.  However, I also read that it is largely due to kneeling on the wing-walk, especially spar-forward, that does it.... quite tricky avoiding this, especially if there are things to fix deep in the cockpit, eg in the fuel selector area. Unless you have the dimensions and flexibility of a small gibbon.   I am 6'1", 96 kg, so kneeling will put a big force on that area.



All best

Richard

wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:01 am Post subject: Wing walk area delamination?

Is there any advice on prevention? Â  Â I'm Â similar dimensions.Will

On Dec 12, 2016 06:58, "Richard Lamprey" <lamprey.richard(at)gmail.com (lamprey.richard(at)gmail.com)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: "Richard Lamprey" <lamprey.richard(at)gmail.com (lamprey.richard(at)gmail.com)>

 

 Hi everyone, thanks for the comments here, and also off-thread by Erich and David (of Swift).Â  Putting it all together, I read that the extent of my delamination is not enough to worry about unduly, but to monitor and repair according to the Europa guidelines if it gets much larger.Â  However, I also read that it is largely due to kneeling on the wing-walk, especially spar-forward, that does it.... quite tricky avoiding this, especially if there are things to fix deep in the cockpit, eg in the fuel selector area. Unless you have the dimensions and flexibility of a small gibbon.Â  Â I am 6'1", 96 kg, so kneeling will put a big force on that area.

 

 All best

 Richard

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=463849#463849

 

 

 

 

 

 

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dg.watts(at)talktalk.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:40 am Post subject: Wing walk area delamination?

Richard,



Kneeling on the wing is obviously not the only cause of delamination because I virtually never kneel or stand on the wing.



The way I get in is to stand in front of the wing and swing my right leg over the wing and in to the cockpit and then pull myself round and into the seat. Getting out I push myself up and then swing my legs out and over the front of the wing.

I must add that at 70 I am pleased that I can still perform these manoeuvres.



Dave Watts



 	  Quote: 	
		   On 12 Dec 2016, at 11:54, Richard Lamprey <lamprey.richard(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 Hi everyone, thanks for the comments here, and also off-thread by Erich and David (of Swift).  Putting it all together, I read that the extent of my delamination is not enough to worry about unduly, but to monitor and repair according to the Europa guidelines if it gets much larger.  However, I also read that it is largely due to kneeling on the wing-walk, especially spar-forward, that does it.... quite tricky avoiding this, especially if there are things to fix deep in the cockpit, eg in the fuel selector area. Unless you have the dimensions and flexibility of a small gibbon.   I am 6'1", 96 kg, so kneeling will put a big force on that area.

 

 All best

 Richard

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=463849#463849

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 6:31 am Post subject: Wing walk area delamination?

For those with wing walk or delamination concerns:

 

 

 Classic wing or any of the foam or glass control surfaces: 

 

 

 Delaminations, often seen as bubbles in the skin, must be repaired.  Two types occur.  Filler can have sizeable air pockets and pop which shows as a small bubble about an inch in diameter and clearly feel as if only the paint is holding the patch.  Grind  out the bad filler and spot finish.  Delaminations or large bubbles which clearly feel like skin moving are caused by impacts, or your knee or toolbox resting on a single point collapsing the foam to glass interface. However, it can also start due to contamination  in the skin layup like greasy fingerprints left on your foam during layup. Common repair technique is to drill two small holes on the edges opposite to one another, and inject epoxy micro slurry into one hole until fluid comes out the other.  Note that one  must clamp down the skin flat again while epoxy oozes out everywhere.  If in summer, the bubble can be flattened also by applying a cold pack or a bag of ice to shrink the hot skin.  ANY AIR LEFT IN THIS BUBBLE WILL EXPAND AT ALTITUDE AND EXPAND AND LIFT YOUR  DELAMINATION FURTHER.  So fix it right.

 

 

 If the skin bubbles up again, re-skin the area using proper techniques.  Fill sand prime paint.

 

 

 XS skin bubbles.  The skins on the XS fuselage and wing are bagged so delaminations are less common.  It can happen.  The skin is thin so repairs often require cutting out the outer glass only from the polyurethane foam, and re-skinning.

 

 

 For the trigear wing walk area refer to my other posts.

 The XS wing has no wing walk support or ribs forward of the spar.  Your skin will flex here and crack the filler at the spar.  I personally add two layers of carbon fiber from aft of the spar to the leading edge from root rib  to the first LE rib to stiffen this area for my fat butt.

 

 

 Bud Yerly,

 Custom Flight Creations, Inc.

 

 

 Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID

 

 On Dec 12, 2016 7:05 AM, William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com> wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		    Is there any advice on prevention?    I'm  similar dimensions. Will

 

 

 On Dec 12, 2016 06:58, "Richard Lamprey" <lamprey.richard(at)gmail.com (lamprey.richard(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   --> Europa-List message posted by: "Richard Lamprey" <lamprey.richard(at)gmail.com (lamprey.richard(at)gmail.com)>

 

 Hi everyone, thanks for the comments here, and also off-thread by Erich and David (of Swift).  Putting it all together, I read that the extent of my delamination is not enough to worry about unduly, but to monitor and repair according to the Europa guidelines  if it gets much larger.  However, I also read that it is largely due to kneeling on the wing-walk, especially spar-forward, that does it.... quite tricky avoiding this, especially if there are things to fix deep in the cockpit, eg in the fuel selector area.  Unless you have the dimensions and flexibility of a small gibbon.   I am 6'1", 96 kg, so kneeling will put a big force on that area.

 

 All best

 Richard

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=463849#463849

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Dave.Glowa(at)termrim.co.
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:57 am Post subject: Wing walk area delamination?

Richard 

  

Just for your information I have attached a diagram of the wing layup as manufactured from memory plus a few notes I had in my possession.  I am pretty sure it is correct it is 15 years since we stopped making them. As Bud said the simplest and most effective way is to inject resin & filler into the void, be careful when drilling that you only go as far as the void otherwise you will need a lot  of resin to fill up the wing! If you do accidently drill through then inject the hole with some thick filler, just enough to block the hole and let it go off then try again. To determine the extent of the void you can tap test and listen for any change in  the tone try a solid area first so you know what you are listening for.  

I would expect the delamination to be between the foam and the glass therefore you will be drilling through 2 plies of 150gsm uni =/-  45, 2 plies 150gsm uni spanwise and 3plies 300gsm bidirectional glass at the front root of the wing. 

  

Note: drill a hole size just enough to fit the end of the syringe in an place some masking tape around area of the hole prior to filling,  this can be removed later when it is cured, if you try mopping up any excess resin before it is cured you run the risk of pressing to hard and the resin oozes out and then sucks air in. This will prevent your wing getting covered in resin. 

  

Dave Glowa 

  

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Daniell

 Sent: 12 December 2016 12:01

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Wing walk area delamination? 

   

Is there any advice on prevention?    I'm  similar dimensions.  

Will 

 

  

   

On Dec 12, 2016 06:58, "Richard Lamprey" <lamprey.richard(at)gmail.com (lamprey.richard(at)gmail.com)> wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		   

--> Europa-List message posted by: "Richard Lamprey" <lamprey.richard(at)gmail.com (lamprey.richard(at)gmail.com)>

 

 Hi everyone, thanks for the comments here, and also off-thread by Erich and David (of Swift).  Putting it all together, I read that the extent of my delamination is not enough to worry about unduly, but to monitor and repair according to the Europa guidelines  if it gets much larger.  However, I also read that it is largely due to kneeling on the wing-walk, especially spar-forward, that does it.... quite tricky avoiding this, especially if there are things to fix deep in the cockpit, eg in the fuel selector area.  Unless you have the dimensions and flexibility of a small gibbon.   I am 6'1", 96 kg, so kneeling will put a big force on that area.

 

 All best

 Richard

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=463849#463849

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Richard Lamprey

Joined: 15 Jul 2011
Posts: 95
Location: Kenya

Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:35 am Post subject: Re: Wing walk area delamination? And Ampreg resin, abroad

Thanks again everyone.  So here's another question... especially affects anyone who lives outside of UK or USA.  Ampreg is classified as a highly dangerous substance, so there are major issues in getting this transported now on any airline.  I have nothing left from my completion 18 years ago, and wouldn't want to use this anyway!!  Back in 1999, my last batch of 5 litres, cost GBP 600 to get to me in Kenya, once packaging regs had been complied with.  Do they sell in small quantities that can be easily transported?  What are the alternatives for epoxy resins, that I might be able to find (in Kenya getting anything like this is challenging, its polyester resins only).  I am in UK occasionally.

Best

Richard

pete(at)lawless.info
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:15 am Post subject: Wing walk area delamination?

Hi Richard



For odd little jobs I get small quantities of epoxy from Severn Valley 

Sailplanes.  Should think most companies that supply glider bits in the 

UK could help.



http://www.svsponline.co.uk/scheufler-l285-resin.html



Regards



Pete

On 13/12/16 08:35, Richard Lamprey wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Thanks again everyone.  So here's another question... especially affects anyone who lives outside of UK or USA.  Ampreg is classified as a highly dangerous substance, so there are major issues in getting this transported now on any airline.  I have nothing left from my completion 18 years ago, and wouldn't want to use this anyway!!  Back in 1999, my last batch of 5 litres, cost GBP 600 to get to me in Kenya, once packaging regs had been complied with.  Do they sell in small quantities that can be easily transported?  What are the alternatives for epoxy resins, that I might be able to find (in Kenya getting anything like this is challenging, its polyester resins only).  I am in UK occasionally.

 Best

 Richard





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=463875#463875

JonathanMilbank

Joined: 14 Apr 2012
Posts: 394
Location: Aberdeen area

Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 3:00 am Post subject: Re: Wing walk area delamination?

West Systems does a range of package sizes and this is what I've bought recently through Amazon, although you can get it from many sources including boat suppliers. Instead of 205 standard hardener, you might consider 206 slow because you're working in a hot climate.



https://www.amazon.co.uk/West-System-Pack-Epoxy-Hardener/dp/B00BAX1UI2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1481626520&sr=8-1&keywords=west+system+epoxy

neveyre(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:02 am Post subject: Wing walk area delamination?

Hi Richard,

  Ampreg isn't especially good as an adhesive [ not much better as a laminating resin either !], better by far would be a 30 minute epoxy adhesive from a model / hobby shop. I use Pacer z-poxy for any tacking jobs, and all my models.Their 30 min' stuff is quite runny when warmed up before mixing. Warm the two components up, they come in flexable bottles with nozzles so easy to pour, it's a 50/50 ratio [ use scales !]. Get everything drilled and masked as others have said, I usually drill a 3/16'' hole to suit the syringe, and 1/8'' holes around the edge of the delamination, mask off the entire area ' and well past, leaving the holes open and have ready bits of tape to seal when each hole weeps resin. Buds tip of chilling the area sounds good. Do a test run between 2 pieces of clear Perspex with the described holes, to a similar size to the damaged area, taped together with mixing stick shims so there is a gap for the resin to fill.

    A test mix of Ampreg with a bit of micro in it, when cured will snap quite easily, the Z-poxy, as is with no micro will remain flexable, much better bet than a stiff lump of resin.

  DONT USE POLYESTER, IT WILL DISOLVE THE BLUE FOAM !

  Cheers,

  Nev

   

   

  --

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:19 am Post subject: Wing walk area delamination?

Richard,

 It's, tough as all epoxies are hazardous.

 So ground or supply aircraft only for transport.

 

 

 Any quality laminating epoxy resin is normally fine.  In Africa, Sting Aircraft uses epoxy so there is a supplier in South Africa I'm sure.  

 

 

 Compare the MSDS and SPECIFICATIONS documentation.  Ampreg 20 was similar to Aeropoxy and West Systems.  Ampreg just needed very warm temperatures to cure well.  Aeropoxy cures at room temp as do many boat epoxies like West Systems.

 

 

 I only use Ampreg 21 when required for me doing structural mods such as mod 78.  21 is tougher but for our layups I use Aeropoxy.

 

 

 Regards,

 

 

 Bud Yerly,

 Custom Flight Creations, Inc.

 

 

 Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID

 

 On Dec 13, 2016 3:43 AM, Richard Lamprey <lamprey.richard(at)gmail.com> wrote: [quote]  --> Europa-List message posted by: "Richard Lamprey" <lamprey.richard(at)gmail.com>

 

 Thanks again everyone.  So here's another question... especially affects anyone who lives outside of UK or USA.  Ampreg is classified as a highly dangerous substance, so there are major issues in getting this transported now on any airline.  I have nothing  left from my completion 18 years ago, and wouldn't want to use this anyway!!  Back in 1999, my last batch of 5 litres, cost GBP 600 to get to me in Kenya, once packaging regs had been complied with.  Do they sell in small quantities that can be easily transported?   What are the alternatives for epoxy resins, that I might be able to find (in Kenya getting anything like this is challenging, its polyester resins only).  I am in UK occasionally.

 Best

 Richard

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=463875#463875

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:37 am Post subject: Wing walk area delamination?

One of the better resin systems is Scheufler L285 H285 used by the glider industry,

possibly Grob too. It's less toxic and easy to use. There is a US version, MGS

sold by Aircraft Spruce.

Graham



[url=https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwisxPje2PHQAhXLDsAKHaBuBNoQFggyMAM&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cozybuilders.org%2Fref_info%2FMGS_L285_properties.pdf&usg=AFQjCNEGvFmpTE0_Zk5-KZoWcwYlvKaeXg][/url]

            Redirect Notice  

        

 

    On Tuesday, 13 December 2016, 17:20, Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com> wrote:



  



   Richard,

 It's, tough as all epoxies are hazardous.

 So ground or supply aircraft only for transport.

  

 Any quality laminating epoxy resin is normally fine.  In Africa, Sting Aircraft uses epoxy so there is a supplier in South Africa I'm sure.  

  

 Compare the MSDS and SPECIFICATIONS documentation.  Ampreg 20 was similar to Aeropoxy and West Systems.  Ampreg just needed very warm temperatures to cure well.  Aeropoxy cures at room temp as do many boat epoxies like West Systems.

  

 I only use Ampreg 21 when required for me doing structural mods such as mod 78.  21 is tougher but for our layups I use Aeropoxy.

  

 Regards,

  

 Bud Yerly,

 Custom Flight Creations, Inc.

  

 Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID

 

 On Dec 13, 2016 3:43 AM, Richard Lamprey <lamprey.richard(at)gmail.com> wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		    --> Europa-List message posted by: "Richard Lamprey" <lamprey.richard(at)gmail.com>  Thanks again everyone.  So here's another question... especially affects anyone who lives outside of UK or USA.  Ampreg is classified as a highly dangerous substance, so there are major issues in getting this transported now on any airline.  I have nothing  left from my completion 18 years ago, and wouldn't want to use this anyway!!  Back in 1999, my last batch of 5 litres, cost GBP 600 to get to me in Kenya, once packaging regs had been complied with.  Do they sell in small quantities that can be easily transported?   What are the alternatives for epoxy resins, that I might be able to find (in Kenya getting anything like this is challenging, its polyester resins only).  I am in UK occasionally. Best Richard     Read this topic online here:  http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=463875#463875       ===========  Month -- Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) r clear="none"> ar="none"> ar="none"> ect" target="_blank" href="http://www.aeroelectric.com/">www.aeroelectric.com  shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.buildersbooks.com/">www.buildersbooks.com rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com/">www.homebuilthelp.com "rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.mypilotstore.com/">www.mypilotstore.com ="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.mrrace.com/">www.mrrace.com k" href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution p;                  -Matt Dralle, List Admin. =========== st Email Forum - > e"> one"> k" href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List =========== p;   - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - e"> k" href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com =========== p;  - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - k" href="http://wiki.matronics.com/">http://wiki.matronics.com =========== p; - List Contribution Web Site - p;                  -Matt Dralle, List Admin. k" href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ===========

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