 |
Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest
|
 Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:49 pm Post subject: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test |
 |
|
Today was first engine run (after my recent mods). My modifications since last test flight were:
1) Move oil cooler from top surface of the wing down to 12 inches under the wing.
2) Move oil reservoir tank down underneath the wing.
3) Fabricate a "solid" cover for the center section so that no air could "leak" or flow upwards form the bottom to the top of the wing (causing drag and bad airflow into the prop)
4) Move the fuel tank forward so it is now under the center of gravity, so that the aircraft CG is not near the aft end of the CG rrange.
On this test run, we were finally able to do a static thrust measurement.
At 5850 RPM on the ground, the giant spring scale registered 250 pounds of thrust. The engine is nominally 58-60HP at its redline of 6200 RPM, which means I was making 94% of max RPM. This was with a 3 blade wide chord propeller, 65 inch diameter, with 11 degrees of pitch measured at the tip.
So the purpose of this Kolb List post is to solicit data/opinion/experience from Kolbers who have measured the static thrust on their Rotax 503, 532, and 582 engines and similar. I have NO IDEA if 250 pounds of thrust is a little, a lot, average, below average, or incredible for a Firestar 2.
Kolbers...how does 250 pounds of thrust compare to what static thrust YOU measured with your 503/532/582 on a Kolb?
Does 250 pounds of thrust seem correct for a "60HP class" engine... somewhere between the 503 and 582?
How many pounds of thrust do YOU think is appropriate or acceptable for Kolb being set up for short takeoff performance?
The next step is to finalize the center section cover (I made four or five of them trying to come up with what would work best). Finally went with thin aluminum sheet metal and Velcro. Once this is all finalized and installed, I can resume my test flying, and see if this made enough difference to raise the cruise speed to 65MPH.
Once I get to 63-65 MPH I can reduce drag using the streamlilned strut fairings (from Dennis Carley / U-Fly-it) and work on all of the little drag redusing things that Jack Hart has documented on his Firefly. Hopefully I can get my Firestar up to the 68-72 MPH cruise speed that Larry C is getting on his Firestar / HKS setup.
Larry and I both have the same large bush tires and Firestar 2 airframe. I have a different gearbox and longer landing gear legs than Larry does.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 6:52 am Post subject: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test |
|
|
I do things a little different, but it has all worked out pretty well in the end.
New engine and/or prop, perform static runs to get the prop pitch in the ball park. I don't concern myself with what the static thrust numbers are. Never did a static thrust test on any of my Kolbs.
Go fly straight and level, wide open throttle. Keep adjusting prop pitch until I can just bump the red line at WOT, straight and level flight.
That exercise gives me the best climb/cruise. I don't need to adjust for best short field, climb performance. I will have it. That is the nature of Kolb flight performance. If you over pitch you will have less climb and cruise. Under pitch and you are spinning your wheels, wasting power.
Unless Bill B's FSII is not remotely configured like Larry C's FSII, it should have very similar performance figures. A little longer main gear legs and bigger tires aren't going to make much difference. On one flight to Alaska I traded my 8X6 tires for 6X6 to get a little more cruise speed. Couldn't detect any difference in performance. Same results going from a Maule 8" Tundra Tail Wheel to a Maule 6" solid rubber tail wheel. No difference.
One thing that will add a lot of drag to a Kolb is loose fabric. There are a lot of Kolbs out there that don't have "really" tight fabric. Fabric has almost a rubbery feel. I shrink the fabric on my aircraft extra tight. Fabric feels like a drum head. All three of my Kolbs have had respectable cruise speed too.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
--
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
lcottrell
Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 8:16 am Post subject: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test |
|
|
I can't add much of anything to what John said, since most of my knowledge comes from John in the first place. One thing I can add is that the increase in airspeed comes from cleaning up the drag- strut fairings, gear legs etc.
Anxiously waiting to hear how the plane is going to fly.
Larry
On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 12:51 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>
Today was first engine run (after my recent mods). My modifications since last test flight were:
1) Move oil cooler from top surface of the wing down to 12 inches under the wing.
2) Move oil reservoir tank down underneath the wing.
3) Fabricate a "solid" cover for the center section so that no air could "leak" or flow upwards form the bottom to the top of the wing (causing drag and bad airflow into the prop)
4) Move the fuel tank forward so it is now under the center of gravity, so that the aircraft CG is not near the aft end of the CG rrange.
On this test run, we were finally able to do a static thrust measurement.
At 5850 RPM on the ground, the giant spring scale registered 250 pounds of thrust. The engine is nominally 58-60HP at its redline of 6200 RPM, which means I was making 94% of max RPM. This was with a 3 blade wide chord propeller, 65 inch diameter, with 11 degrees of pitch measured at the tip.
So the purpose of this Kolb List post is to solicit data/opinion/experience from Kolbers who have measured the static thrust on their Rotax 503, 532, and 582 engines and similar. I have NO IDEA if 250 pounds of thrust is a little, a lot, average, below average, or incredible for a Firestar 2.
Kolbers...how does 250 pounds of thrust compare to what static thrust YOU measured with your 503/532/582 on a Kolb?
Does 250 pounds of thrust seem correct for a "60HP class" engine.. somewhere between the 503 and 582?
How many pounds of thrust do YOU think is appropriate or acceptable for Kolb being set up for short takeoff performance?
The next step is to finalize the center section cover (I made four or five of them trying to come up with what would work best). Finally went with thin aluminum sheet metal and Velcro. Once this is all finalized and installed, I can resume my test flying, and see if this made enough difference to raise the cruise speed to 65MPH.
Once I get to 63-65 MPH I can reduce drag using the streamlilned strut fairings (from Dennis Carley / U-Fly-it) and work on all of the little drag redusing things that Jack Hart has documented on his Firefly. Hopefully I can get my Firestar up to the 68-72 MPH cruise speed that Larry C is getting on his Firestar / HKS setup.
Larry and I both have the same large bush tires and Firestar 2 airframe. I have a different gearbox and longer landing gear legs than Larry does.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
===========
br> fts!)
r> > e.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
===========
-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
WIKI -
errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
|
--
The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.
If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
_________________
do not archive |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:56 pm Post subject: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test |
|
|
My aircraft is close but not identical to Larry C's Firestar.
I have longer landing gear legs, maybe 8 or 10 inches more steel tube on each side sticking out in the breeze.
I have a shorter windshield than Larry. His comes back almost to the pilot's shoulders (from the photos I've seen). Mine comes back to the pilot's knees.
Larry has streamlined struts and fairings. In my initial test flights, my aircraft did NOT have the streamlined struts or fairings, and no fairings on the gear legs either. Many many Kolbers have said that these streamlined struts and gear legs will give you 5-7 MPH. My airplane is 20 MPH slower than his. So the strut fairings will NOT make up that difference.
My exhaust system is totally different than Larry's. He has the stock HKS system above the wing, with a small speed fairing behind the big can. Mine is a long 2-into-1 behind and below the fuselage, with a long thin muffler parallel to the tailboom.
I have the 3.47-to-1 gearbox. Larry has the 2.58-to-1.
Larry has a "solid" fairing over the center section, top surface only. In my test flights I had big holes in this fairing/cover where the oil cooler air came out and the cover was not solid. The rear half of the wing was a "bottom surface" cover only.The leading edge was top and bottom surface back to the thickest part of the airfoil on mine. Then it was bottom-only from there back to the rear.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 11/4/18, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> wrote:
Subject: RE: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Sunday, November 4, 2018, 6:52 AM
Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
I do things a little different, but it
has all worked out pretty well in the end.
New engine and/or prop, perform static
runs to get the prop pitch in the ball park. I don't
concern myself with what the static thrust numbers
are. Never did a static thrust test on any of my
Kolbs.
Go fly straight and level, wide open
throttle. Keep adjusting prop pitch until I can just
bump the red line at WOT, straight and level flight.
That exercise gives me the best
climb/cruise. I don't need to adjust for best short
field, climb performance. I will have it. That
is the nature of Kolb flight performance. If you over
pitch you will have less climb and cruise. Under pitch
and you are spinning your wheels, wasting power.
Unless Bill B's FSII is not remotely
configured like Larry C's FSII, it should have very similar
performance figures. A little longer main gear legs
and bigger tires aren't going to make much difference.
On one flight to Alaska I traded my 8X6 tires for 6X6 to get
a little more cruise speed. Couldn't detect any
difference in performance. Same results going from a
Maule 8" Tundra Tail Wheel to a Maule 6" solid rubber tail
wheel. No difference.
One thing that will add a lot of drag
to a Kolb is loose fabric. There are a lot of Kolbs
out there that don't have "really" tight fabric.
Fabric has almost a rubbery feel. I shrink the fabric
on my aircraft extra tight. Fabric feels like a drum
head. All three of my Kolbs have had respectable
cruise speed too.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
--
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:07 am Post subject: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test |
|
|
Hi Larry,
What was the cruising speed you got from your HKS/Firestar BEFORE the strut fairings, gear leg fairings, etc?
I have only a few possibilities left if the "solid" center section fairing does not get me up to 60 MPH without the fairings:
1) Modify the intake maniforlds or use the "straight" intakes like yours, to point the carburetors forward into the airflow. Mine are the other curved type and my carburetors face rearward. This puts a little bit of suction at the carb inlet from forward speed AND the inlet be ing in the "suction" area in front of the prop.
2) Remove the entire exhaust system to mount the stock HKS exhaust. This will be difficult because my engine is lower on the mount plate than yours.
3) Trade my engine for another engine that has a 2.58 gearbox
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 11/4/18, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Subject: Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
To: "kolb-list(at)matronics.com" <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>
Date: Sunday, November 4, 2018, 8:16 AM
I can't add much
of anything to what John said, since most of my knowledge
comes from John in the first place. One thing I can add is
that the increase in airspeed comes from cleaning up the
drag- strut fairings, gear legs etc.
Anxiously waiting to
hear how the plane is going to fly.Larry
On Sun,
Nov 4, 2018 at 12:51 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
Today was first engine run (after my recent mods). My
modifications since last test flight were:
1) Move oil cooler from top surface of the wing down to 12
inches under the wing.
2) Move oil reservoir tank down underneath the wing.
3) Fabricate a "solid" cover for the center
section so that no air could "leak" or flow
upwards form the bottom to the top of the wing (causing drag
and bad airflow into the prop)
4) Move the fuel tank forward so it is now under the center
of gravity, so that the aircraft CG is not near the aft end
of the CG rrange.
On this test run, we were finally able to do a static thrust
measurement.
At 5850 RPM on the ground, the giant spring scale registered
250 pounds of thrust. The engine is nominally 58-60HP at its
redline of 6200 RPM, which means I was making 94% of max
RPM. This was with a 3 blade wide chord propeller, 65 inch
diameter, with 11 degrees of pitch measured at the tip.
So the purpose of this Kolb List post is to solicit
data/opinion/experience from Kolbers who have measured the
static thrust on their Rotax 503, 532, and 582 engines and
similar. I have NO IDEA if 250 pounds of thrust is a little,
a lot, average, below average, or incredible for a Firestar
2.
Kolbers...how does 250 pounds of thrust compare to what
static thrust YOU measured with your 503/532/582 on a Kolb?
Does 250 pounds of thrust seem correct for a "60HP
class" engine... somewhere between the 503 and 582?
How many pounds of thrust do YOU think is appropriate or
acceptable for Kolb being set up for short takeoff
performance?
The next step is to finalize the center section cover (I
made four or five of them trying to come up with what would
work best). Finally went with thin aluminum sheet metal and
Velcro. Once this is all finalized and installed, I can
resume my test flying, and see if this made enough
difference to raise the cruise speed to 65MPH.
Once I get to 63-65 MPH I can reduce drag using the
streamlilned strut fairings (from Dennis Carley / U-Fly-it)
and work on all of the little drag redusing things that Jack
Hart has documented on his Firefly. Hopefully I can get my
Firestar up to the 68-72 MPH cruise speed that Larry C is
getting on his Firestar / HKS setup.
Larry and I both have the same large bush tires and Firestar
2 airframe. I have a different gearbox and longer landing
gear legs than Larry does.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com
- safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit
entities
===========
br>
fts!)
r>
>
e.com" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
===========
-List" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer"
target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
WIKI -
errer"
target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
--
The
older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are
intolerant of others.
If you forward this email, or any part of
it, please remove my email address before sending.
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:46 am Post subject: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test |
|
|
Bill B,
Did you ever do an actual in flight prop pitch check, WOT, straight and level, just bump the red line?
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
--
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:40 am Post subject: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test |
|
|
Bill
How about adjusting the wing angle of attack to get your plane flying level? "When you have eliminated all other possibilities then the answer no matter how improbable must be the answer".
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 3:08 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>
Hi Larry,
What was the cruising speed you got from your HKS/Firestar BEFORE the strut fairings, gear leg fairings, etc?
I have only a few possibilities left if the "solid" center section fairing does not get me up to 60 MPH without the fairings:
1) Modify the intake maniforlds or use the "straight" intakes like yours, to point the carburetors forward into the airflow. Mine are the other curved type and my carburetors face rearward. This puts a little bit of suction at the carb inlet from forward speed AND the inlet be ing in the "suction" area in front of the prop.
2) Remove the entire exhaust system to mount the stock HKS exhaust. This will be difficult because my engine is lower on the mount plate than yours.
3) Trade my engine for another engine that has a 2.58 gearbox
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 11/4/18, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com (lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Subject: Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
To: "kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)" <kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)>
Date: Sunday, November 4, 2018, 8:16 AM
I can't add much
of anything to what John said, since most of my knowledge
comes from John in the first place. One thing I can add is
that the increase in airspeed comes from cleaning up the
drag- strut fairings, gear legs etc.
Anxiously waiting to
hear how the plane is going to fly.Larry
On Sun,
Nov 4, 2018 at 12:51 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>
wrote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by:
Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>
Today was first engine run (after my recent mods). My
modifications since last test flight were:
1) Move oil cooler from top surface of the wing down to 12
inches under the wing.
2) Move oil reservoir tank down underneath the wing.
3) Fabricate a "solid" cover for the center
section so that no air could "leak" or flow
upwards form the bottom to the top of the wing (causing drag
and bad airflow into the prop)
4) Move the fuel tank forward so it is now under the center
of gravity, so that the aircraft CG is not near the aft end
of the CG rrange.
On this test run, we were finally able to do a static thrust
measurement.
At 5850 RPM on the ground, the giant spring scale registered
250 pounds of thrust. The engine is nominally 58-60HP at its
redline of 6200 RPM, which means I was making 94% of max
RPM. This was with a 3 blade wide chord propeller, 65 inch
diameter, with 11 degrees of pitch measured at the tip.
So the purpose of this Kolb List post is to solicit
data/opinion/experience from Kolbers who have measured the
static thrust on their Rotax 503, 532, and 582 engines and
similar. I have NO IDEA if 250 pounds of thrust is a little,
a lot, average, below average, or incredible for a Firestar
2.
Kolbers...how does 250 pounds of thrust compare to what
static thrust YOU measured with your 503/532/582 on a Kolb?
Does 250 pounds of thrust seem correct for a "60HP
class" engine... somewhere between the 503 and 582?
How many pounds of thrust do YOU think is appropriate or
acceptable for Kolb being set up for short takeoff
performance?
The next step is to finalize the center section cover (I
made four or five of them trying to come up with what would
work best). Finally went with thin aluminum sheet metal and
Velcro. Once this is all finalized and installed, I can
resume my test flying, and see if this made enough
difference to raise the cruise speed to 65MPH.
Once I get to 63-65 MPH I can reduce drag using the
streamlilned strut fairings (from Dennis Carley / U-Fly-it)
and work on all of the little drag redusing things that Jack
Hart has documented on his Firefly. Hopefully I can get my
Firestar up to the 68-72 MPH cruise speed that Larry C is
getting on his Firestar / HKS setup.
Larry and I both have the same large bush tires and Firestar
2 airframe. I have a different gearbox and longer landing
gear legs than Larry does.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com
- safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit
entities
===========
br>
fts!)
r>
>
e.com" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
===========
-List" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer"
target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
WIKI -
errer"
target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
--
The
older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are
intolerant of others.
If you forward this email, or any part of
it, please remove my email address before sending.
===========
br> fts!)
r> > e.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
===========
-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
WIKI -
errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
|
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
lcottrell
Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:05 am Post subject: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test |
|
|
58 to 60 would be the "normal" speed without any "improvements" made to clean it up.
Larry
On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 1:08 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>
Hi Larry,
What was the cruising speed you got from your HKS/Firestar BEFORE the strut fairings, gear leg fairings, etc?
I have only a few possibilities left if the "solid" center section fairing does not get me up to 60 MPH without the fairings:
1) Modify the intake maniforlds or use the "straight" intakes like yours, to point the carburetors forward into the airflow. Mine are the other curved type and my carburetors face rearward. This puts a little bit of suction at the carb inlet from forward speed AND the inlet be ing in the "suction" area in front of the prop.
2) Remove the entire exhaust system to mount the stock HKS exhaust. This will be difficult because my engine is lower on the mount plate than yours.
3) Trade my engine for another engine that has a 2.58 gearbox
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 11/4/18, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com (lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Subject: Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
To: "kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)" <kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)>
Date: Sunday, November 4, 2018, 8:16 AM
I can't add much
of anything to what John said, since most of my knowledge
comes from John in the first place. One thing I can add is
that the increase in airspeed comes from cleaning up the
drag- strut fairings, gear legs etc.
Anxiously waiting to
hear how the plane is going to fly.Larry
On Sun,
Nov 4, 2018 at 12:51 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>
wrote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by:
Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>
Today was first engine run (after my recent mods). My
modifications since last test flight were:
1) Move oil cooler from top surface of the wing down to 12
inches under the wing.
2) Move oil reservoir tank down underneath the wing.
3) Fabricate a "solid" cover for the center
section so that no air could "leak" or flow
upwards form the bottom to the top of the wing (causing drag
and bad airflow into the prop)
4) Move the fuel tank forward so it is now under the center
of gravity, so that the aircraft CG is not near the aft end
of the CG rrange.
On this test run, we were finally able to do a static thrust
measurement.
At 5850 RPM on the ground, the giant spring scale registered
250 pounds of thrust. The engine is nominally 58-60HP at its
redline of 6200 RPM, which means I was making 94% of max
RPM. This was with a 3 blade wide chord propeller, 65 inch
diameter, with 11 degrees of pitch measured at the tip.
So the purpose of this Kolb List post is to solicit
data/opinion/experience from Kolbers who have measured the
static thrust on their Rotax 503, 532, and 582 engines and
similar. I have NO IDEA if 250 pounds of thrust is a little,
a lot, average, below average, or incredible for a Firestar
2.
Kolbers...how does 250 pounds of thrust compare to what
static thrust YOU measured with your 503/532/582 on a Kolb?
Does 250 pounds of thrust seem correct for a "60HP
class" engine... somewhere between the 503 and 582?
How many pounds of thrust do YOU think is appropriate or
acceptable for Kolb being set up for short takeoff
performance?
The next step is to finalize the center section cover (I
made four or five of them trying to come up with what would
work best). Finally went with thin aluminum sheet metal and
Velcro. Once this is all finalized and installed, I can
resume my test flying, and see if this made enough
difference to raise the cruise speed to 65MPH.
Once I get to 63-65 MPH I can reduce drag using the
streamlilned strut fairings (from Dennis Carley / U-Fly-it)
and work on all of the little drag redusing things that Jack
Hart has documented on his Firefly. Hopefully I can get my
Firestar up to the 68-72 MPH cruise speed that Larry C is
getting on his Firestar / HKS setup.
Larry and I both have the same large bush tires and Firestar
2 airframe. I have a different gearbox and longer landing
gear legs than Larry does.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com
- safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit
entities
===========
br>
fts!)
r>
>
e.com" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
===========
-List" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer"
target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
WIKI -
errer"
target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
--
The
older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are
intolerant of others.
If you forward this email, or any part of
it, please remove my email address before sending.
===========
br> fts!)
r> > e.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
===========
-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
WIKI -
errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
|
--
The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.
If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
_________________
do not archive |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:15 am Post subject: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test |
|
|
One time I left the traffic pattern and let it "settle down" into a long distance cruise. I spent a little time at WOT and it was able to go redline (6200). It might have been able to go a little over but I pulled it back before it got any farther. However I do not have a lot of faith in this test since it was only briefly done and a lot of other stuff was going on, trim issues in the pitch axis and yaw axis, etc.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 11/5/18, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> wrote:
Subject: RE: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Monday, November 5, 2018, 5:43 AM
Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
Bill B,
Did you ever do an actual in flight
prop pitch check, WOT, straight and level, just bump the red
line?
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
--
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:34 am Post subject: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test |
|
|
Hi Rick, I did speak to Duane at Kolb a few times to verify the proper measurements of the wing and tail incidence. My wings sit on the fuselage at the correct angle within a small fraction. My tailboom (fuselage tube) is at the correct angle because that is set at the factory when they weld the fuselage jig. My horizontal tail started out at the correct angle (per Duane's measurement and the plans) and I had to raise the tail in order for it to fly level.
Since then, John H and several other Kolbers were not happy with the LE of the tail being raised up, so I moved the fuel tank forward, so I can start lowering the tail back down towards the "normal" setting.
I am not certain what the "level flight" measurement is on the Firestar. I cannot recall if anyone has an official concrete number "the bottom of the wing has to be X degrees to the horizon for level flight".
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 11/5/18, Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Subject: Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
To: "kolb-list(at)matronics.com" <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>
Date: Monday, November 5, 2018, 6:40 AM
Bill
How about adjusting the wing angle
of attack to get your plane flying level? "When you
have eliminated all other possibilities then the answer no
matter how improbable must be the answer".
Rick NeilsenRedrive VW Powered
MKIIIC
On Mon,
Nov 5, 2018 at 3:08 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
Hi Larry,
What was the cruising speed you got from your HKS/Firestar
BEFORE the strut fairings, gear leg fairings, etc?
I have only a few possibilities left if the
"solid" center section fairing does not get me up
to 60 MPH without the fairings:
1) Modify the intake maniforlds or use the
"straight" intakes like yours, to point the
carburetors forward into the airflow. Mine are the other
curved type and my carburetors face rearward. This puts a
little bit of suction at the carb inlet from forward speed
AND the inlet be ing in the "suction" area in
front of the prop.
2) Remove the entire exhaust system to mount the stock HKS
exhaust. This will be difficult because my engine is lower
on the mount plate than yours.
3) Trade my engine for another engine that has a 2.58
gearbox
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com
- safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit
entities
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 11/4/18, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com>
wrote:
Subject: Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
To: "kolb-list(at)matronics.com"
<kolb-list(at)matronics.com>
Date: Sunday, November 4, 2018, 8:16 AM
I can't add much
of anything to what John said, since most of my knowledge
comes from John in the first place. One thing I can add
is
that the increase in airspeed comes from cleaning up the
drag- strut fairings, gear legs etc.
Anxiously waiting to
hear how the plane is going to fly.Larry
On Sun,
Nov 4, 2018 at 12:51 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
Today was first engine run (after my recent mods). My
modifications since last test flight were:
1) Move oil cooler from top surface of the wing down to
12
inches under the wing.
2) Move oil reservoir tank down underneath the wing.
3) Fabricate a "solid" cover for the center
section so that no air could "leak" or flow
upwards form the bottom to the top of the wing (causing
drag
and bad airflow into the prop)
4) Move the fuel tank forward so it is now under the
center
of gravity, so that the aircraft CG is not near the aft
end
of the CG rrange.
On this test run, we were finally able to do a static
thrust
measurement.
At 5850 RPM on the ground, the giant spring scale
registered
250 pounds of thrust. The engine is nominally 58-60HP at
its
redline of 6200 RPM, which means I was making 94% of max
RPM. This was with a 3 blade wide chord propeller, 65
inch
diameter, with 11 degrees of pitch measured at the tip.
So the purpose of this Kolb List post is to solicit
data/opinion/experience from Kolbers who have measured
the
static thrust on their Rotax 503, 532, and 582 engines
and
similar. I have NO IDEA if 250 pounds of thrust is a
little,
a lot, average, below average, or incredible for a
Firestar
2.
Kolbers...how does 250 pounds of thrust compare to what
static thrust YOU measured with your 503/532/582 on a
Kolb?
Does 250 pounds of thrust seem correct for a "60HP
class" engine... somewhere between the 503 and 582?
How many pounds of thrust do YOU think is appropriate or
acceptable for Kolb being set up for short takeoff
performance?
The next step is to finalize the center section cover (I
made four or five of them trying to come up with what
would
work best). Finally went with thin aluminum sheet metal
and
Velcro. Once this is all finalized and installed, I can
resume my test flying, and see if this made enough
difference to raise the cruise speed to 65MPH.
Once I get to 63-65 MPH I can reduce drag using the
streamlilned strut fairings (from Dennis Carley /
U-Fly-it)
and work on all of the little drag redusing things that
Jack
Hart has documented on his Firefly. Hopefully I can get
my
Firestar up to the 68-72 MPH cruise speed that Larry C is
getting on his Firestar / HKS setup.
Larry and I both have the same large bush tires and
Firestar
2 airframe. I have a different gearbox and longer landing
gear legs than Larry does.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com
- safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for non-profit and
for-profit
entities
===========
br>
fts!)
r>
>
e.com"
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
===========
-List" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer"
target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
WIKI -
errer"
target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
--
The
older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are
intolerant of others.
If you forward this email, or any part of
it, please remove my email address before sending.
===========
br>
fts!)
r>
>
e.com" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
===========
-List" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer"
target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
WIKI -
errer"
target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:39 am Post subject: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test |
|
|
Thank you! This now gives me a reasonable target for solving my "wierd" Bill-only problems. Once I can get to this speed, I know I have a Kolb that is performing "normally" (at least compared to aonther HKS Firestar), and THEN I can start reducing drag with fairings and clean-up.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 11/5/18, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Subject: Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
To: "kolb-list(at)matronics.com" <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>
Date: Monday, November 5, 2018, 7:05 AM
58 to 60 would be
the "normal" speed without any
"improvements" made to clean it up.Larry
On Mon,
Nov 5, 2018 at 1:08 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
Hi Larry,
What was the cruising speed you got from your HKS/Firestar
BEFORE the strut fairings, gear leg fairings, etc?
I have only a few possibilities left if the
"solid" center section fairing does not get me up
to 60 MPH without the fairings:
1) Modify the intake maniforlds or use the
"straight" intakes like yours, to point the
carburetors forward into the airflow. Mine are the other
curved type and my carburetors face rearward. This puts a
little bit of suction at the carb inlet from forward speed
AND the inlet be ing in the "suction" area in
front of the prop.
2) Remove the entire exhaust system to mount the stock HKS
exhaust. This will be difficult because my engine is lower
on the mount plate than yours.
3) Trade my engine for another engine that has a 2.58
gearbox
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com
- safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit
entities
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 11/4/18, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com>
wrote:
Subject: Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
To: "kolb-list(at)matronics.com"
<kolb-list(at)matronics.com>
Date: Sunday, November 4, 2018, 8:16 AM
I can't add much
of anything to what John said, since most of my knowledge
comes from John in the first place. One thing I can add
is
that the increase in airspeed comes from cleaning up the
drag- strut fairings, gear legs etc.
Anxiously waiting to
hear how the plane is going to fly.Larry
On Sun,
Nov 4, 2018 at 12:51 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
Today was first engine run (after my recent mods). My
modifications since last test flight were:
1) Move oil cooler from top surface of the wing down to
12
inches under the wing.
2) Move oil reservoir tank down underneath the wing.
3) Fabricate a "solid" cover for the center
section so that no air could "leak" or flow
upwards form the bottom to the top of the wing (causing
drag
and bad airflow into the prop)
4) Move the fuel tank forward so it is now under the
center
of gravity, so that the aircraft CG is not near the aft
end
of the CG rrange.
On this test run, we were finally able to do a static
thrust
measurement.
At 5850 RPM on the ground, the giant spring scale
registered
250 pounds of thrust. The engine is nominally 58-60HP at
its
redline of 6200 RPM, which means I was making 94% of max
RPM. This was with a 3 blade wide chord propeller, 65
inch
diameter, with 11 degrees of pitch measured at the tip.
So the purpose of this Kolb List post is to solicit
data/opinion/experience from Kolbers who have measured
the
static thrust on their Rotax 503, 532, and 582 engines
and
similar. I have NO IDEA if 250 pounds of thrust is a
little,
a lot, average, below average, or incredible for a
Firestar
2.
Kolbers...how does 250 pounds of thrust compare to what
static thrust YOU measured with your 503/532/582 on a
Kolb?
Does 250 pounds of thrust seem correct for a "60HP
class" engine... somewhere between the 503 and 582?
How many pounds of thrust do YOU think is appropriate or
acceptable for Kolb being set up for short takeoff
performance?
The next step is to finalize the center section cover (I
made four or five of them trying to come up with what
would
work best). Finally went with thin aluminum sheet metal
and
Velcro. Once this is all finalized and installed, I can
resume my test flying, and see if this made enough
difference to raise the cruise speed to 65MPH.
Once I get to 63-65 MPH I can reduce drag using the
streamlilned strut fairings (from Dennis Carley /
U-Fly-it)
and work on all of the little drag redusing things that
Jack
Hart has documented on his Firefly. Hopefully I can get
my
Firestar up to the 68-72 MPH cruise speed that Larry C is
getting on his Firestar / HKS setup.
Larry and I both have the same large bush tires and
Firestar
2 airframe. I have a different gearbox and longer landing
gear legs than Larry does.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com
- safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for non-profit and
for-profit
entities
===========
br>
fts!)
r>
>
e.com"
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
===========
-List" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer"
target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
WIKI -
errer"
target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
--
The
older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are
intolerant of others.
If you forward this email, or any part of
it, please remove my email address before sending.
===========
br>
fts!)
r>
>
e.com" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
===========
-List" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer"
target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
WIKI -
errer"
target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
--
The
older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are
intolerant of others.
If you forward this email, or any part of
it, please remove my email address before sending.
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rascaljohn
Joined: 02 May 2013
Posts: 23
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:48 am Post subject: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test |
|
|
I’ve been struggling with getting my 503 dcdi fs ll to turn more than 5900 rpm static with a 62” 3 blade Warpdrive pitched all the way down to 8 1/4 degrees. Good compression, plugs good color, good running except for the low rpm. Has anyone had an ignition timing issue? Is there any adjustment or way to check this?Have not done measured static thrust test but it sure pulls strong against the rope tied to the tail - easily puts the tail up in the air.
Previous replies to this same question were “reduce prop pitch till you get 6200 -6300 rpm”
I’m at 8-1/4deg !?!?
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 5, 2018, at 7:05 AM, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com (lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | 58 to 60 would be the "normal" speed without any "improvements" made to clean it up.
Larry
On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 1:08 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>
Hi Larry,
What was the cruising speed you got from your HKS/Firestar BEFORE the strut fairings, gear leg fairings, etc?
I have only a few possibilities left if the "solid" center section fairing does not get me up to 60 MPH without the fairings:
1) Modify the intake maniforlds or use the "straight" intakes like yours, to point the carburetors forward into the airflow. Mine are the other curved type and my carburetors face rearward. This puts a little bit of suction at the carb inlet from forward speed AND the inlet be ing in the "suction" area in front of the prop.
2) Remove the entire exhaust system to mount the stock HKS exhaust. This will be difficult because my engine is lower on the mount plate than yours.
3) Trade my engine for another engine that has a 2.58 gearbox
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 11/4/18, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com (lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Subject: Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
To: "kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)" <kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)>
Date: Sunday, November 4, 2018, 8:16 AM
I can't add much
of anything to what John said, since most of my knowledge
comes from John in the first place. One thing I can add is
that the increase in airspeed comes from cleaning up the
drag- strut fairings, gear legs etc.
Anxiously waiting to
hear how the plane is going to fly.Larry
On Sun,
Nov 4, 2018 at 12:51 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>
wrote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by:
Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>
Today was first engine run (after my recent mods). My
modifications since last test flight were:
1) Move oil cooler from top surface of the wing down to 12
inches under the wing.
2) Move oil reservoir tank down underneath the wing.
3) Fabricate a "solid" cover for the center
section so that no air could "leak" or flow
upwards form the bottom to the top of the wing (causing drag
and bad airflow into the prop)
4) Move the fuel tank forward so it is now under the center
of gravity, so that the aircraft CG is not near the aft end
of the CG rrange.
On this test run, we were finally able to do a static thrust
measurement.
At 5850 RPM on the ground, the giant spring scale registered
250 pounds of thrust. The engine is nominally 58-60HP at its
redline of 6200 RPM, which means I was making 94% of max
RPM. This was with a 3 blade wide chord propeller, 65 inch
diameter, with 11 degrees of pitch measured at the tip.
So the purpose of this Kolb List post is to solicit
data/opinion/experience from Kolbers who have measured the
static thrust on their Rotax 503, 532, and 582 engines and
similar. I have NO IDEA if 250 pounds of thrust is a little,
a lot, average, below average, or incredible for a Firestar
2.
Kolbers...how does 250 pounds of thrust compare to what
static thrust YOU measured with your 503/532/582 on a Kolb?
Does 250 pounds of thrust seem correct for a "60HP
class" engine... somewhere between the 503 and 582?
How many pounds of thrust do YOU think is appropriate or
acceptable for Kolb being set up for short takeoff
performance?
The next step is to finalize the center section cover (I
made four or five of them trying to come up with what would
work best). Finally went with thin aluminum sheet metal and
Velcro. Once this is all finalized and installed, I can
resume my test flying, and see if this made enough
difference to raise the cruise speed to 65MPH.
Once I get to 63-65 MPH I can reduce drag using the
streamlilned strut fairings (from Dennis Carley / U-Fly-it)
and work on all of the little drag redusing things that Jack
Hart has documented on his Firefly. Hopefully I can get my
Firestar up to the 68-72 MPH cruise speed that Larry C is
getting on his Firestar / HKS setup.
Larry and I both have the same large bush tires and Firestar
2 airframe. I have a different gearbox and longer landing
gear legs than Larry does.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com
- safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit
entities
===========
br>
fts!)
r>
>
e.com" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
===========
-List" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer"
target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
WIKI -
errer"
target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
--
The
older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are
intolerant of others.
If you forward this email, or any part of
it, please remove my email address before sending.
===========
br> fts!)
r> > e.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
===========
-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
WIKI -
errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
|
--
The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.
If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.
|
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 11:06 am Post subject: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test |
|
|
Bill
Having to raise the horizontal stabilizer as high as you have to is the symptom of the wing being set with the leading edge too high and/or the trailing edge too low. Your tail has to be flying way too high to keep from climbing. You have a bunch more fuselage and tail boom being pushed through the air than if it were lined up with the air flow. It's a bit like putting your plane in a slip for landing.
Sorry this all worth what you paid for it and I'm probably wrong. After 44 years of marriage my wife told me I was right for the 30th time last night!!!!! I'm shooting for 40 before one of us dies.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 11:37 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>
Hi Rick, I did speak to Duane at Kolb a few times to verify the proper measurements of the wing and tail incidence. My wings sit on the fuselage at the correct angle within a small fraction. My tailboom (fuselage tube) is at the correct angle because that is set at the factory when they weld the fuselage jig. My horizontal tail started out at the correct angle (per Duane's measurement and the plans) and I had to raise the tail in order for it to fly level.
Since then, John H and several other Kolbers were not happy with the LE of the tail being raised up, so I moved the fuel tank forward, so I can start lowering the tail back down towards the "normal" setting.
I am not certain what the "level flight" measurement is on the Firestar. I cannot recall if anyone has an official concrete number "the bottom of the wing has to be X degrees to the horizon for level flight".
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 11/5/18, Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com (neilsenrm(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Subject: Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
To: "kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)" <kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)>
Date: Monday, November 5, 2018, 6:40 AM
Bill
How about adjusting the wing angle
of attack to get your plane flying level? "When you
have eliminated all other possibilities then the answer no
matter how improbable must be the answer".
Rick NeilsenRedrive VW Powered
MKIIIC
On Mon,
Nov 5, 2018 at 3:08 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>
wrote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by:
Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>
Hi Larry,
What was the cruising speed you got from your HKS/Firestar
BEFORE the strut fairings, gear leg fairings, etc?
I have only a few possibilities left if the
"solid" center section fairing does not get me up
to 60 MPH without the fairings:
1) Modify the intake maniforlds or use the
"straight" intakes like yours, to point the
carburetors forward into the airflow. Mine are the other
curved type and my carburetors face rearward. This puts a
little bit of suction at the carb inlet from forward speed
AND the inlet be ing in the "suction" area in
front of the prop.
2) Remove the entire exhaust system to mount the stock HKS
exhaust. This will be difficult because my engine is lower
on the mount plate than yours.
3) Trade my engine for another engine that has a 2.58
gearbox
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com
- safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit
entities
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 11/4/18, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com (lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com)>
wrote:
Subject: Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
To: "kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)"
<kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)>
Date: Sunday, November 4, 2018, 8:16 AM
I can't add much
of anything to what John said, since most of my knowledge
comes from John in the first place. One thing I can add
is
that the increase in airspeed comes from cleaning up the
drag- strut fairings, gear legs etc.
Anxiously waiting to
hear how the plane is going to fly.Larry
On Sun,
Nov 4, 2018 at 12:51 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>
wrote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by:
Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>
Today was first engine run (after my recent mods). My
modifications since last test flight were:
1) Move oil cooler from top surface of the wing down to
12
inches under the wing.
2) Move oil reservoir tank down underneath the wing.
3) Fabricate a "solid" cover for the center
section so that no air could "leak" or flow
upwards form the bottom to the top of the wing (causing
drag
and bad airflow into the prop)
4) Move the fuel tank forward so it is now under the
center
of gravity, so that the aircraft CG is not near the aft
end
of the CG rrange.
On this test run, we were finally able to do a static
thrust
measurement.
At 5850 RPM on the ground, the giant spring scale
registered
250 pounds of thrust. The engine is nominally 58-60HP at
its
redline of 6200 RPM, which means I was making 94% of max
RPM. This was with a 3 blade wide chord propeller, 65
inch
diameter, with 11 degrees of pitch measured at the tip.
So the purpose of this Kolb List post is to solicit
data/opinion/experience from Kolbers who have measured
the
static thrust on their Rotax 503, 532, and 582 engines
and
similar. I have NO IDEA if 250 pounds of thrust is a
little,
a lot, average, below average, or incredible for a
Firestar
2.
Kolbers...how does 250 pounds of thrust compare to what
static thrust YOU measured with your 503/532/582 on a
Kolb?
Does 250 pounds of thrust seem correct for a "60HP
class" engine... somewhere between the 503 and 582?
How many pounds of thrust do YOU think is appropriate or
acceptable for Kolb being set up for short takeoff
performance?
The next step is to finalize the center section cover (I
made four or five of them trying to come up with what
would
work best). Finally went with thin aluminum sheet metal
and
Velcro. Once this is all finalized and installed, I can
resume my test flying, and see if this made enough
difference to raise the cruise speed to 65MPH.
Once I get to 63-65 MPH I can reduce drag using the
streamlilned strut fairings (from Dennis Carley /
U-Fly-it)
and work on all of the little drag redusing things that
Jack
Hart has documented on his Firefly. Hopefully I can get
my
Firestar up to the 68-72 MPH cruise speed that Larry C is
getting on his Firestar / HKS setup.
Larry and I both have the same large bush tires and
Firestar
2 airframe. I have a different gearbox and longer landing
gear legs than Larry does.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com
- safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for non-profit and
for-profit
entities
===========
br>
fts!)
r>
>
e.com"
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
===========
-List" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer"
target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
WIKI -
errer"
target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
--
The
older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are
intolerant of others.
If you forward this email, or any part of
it, please remove my email address before sending.
===========
br>
fts!)
r>
>
e.com" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
===========
-List" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer"
target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
WIKI -
errer"
target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
===========
br> fts!)
r> > e.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
===========
-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
WIKI -
errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
|
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gdhelton(at)gmail.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:22 pm Post subject: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test |
|
|
Well, John the first thing that I would do is make tachometer is reading correctly. I’m running a different engine and prop combination( 2702 Hirth with a 3 blade, 64” Powerfin)and I’m pitched at 6.7 degrees to obtain my maximum rpm of 5500rpm. This isn’t apples to apples because I’m running a low rpm high torque engine with a single carb, rated at 40 hp with 2:29 ratio gearbox.
Is this a single carb engine? I’d drop pitch to 6.5 degrees and see if that works. You’re also swinging a heavy prop. I think most guys run a 60” 3 blade on that engine? I’m not sure about that? I suspect your tach. If you had a timing issue it would be hard to start and probably would have burned up by now. As always it’s worth what it cost ya.
George H
Firestar, FS 100, 2702 Hirth
14GDH
Mesick, Michigan
gdhelton(at)gmail.com (gdhelton(at)gmail.com)
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 5, 2018, at 12:48 PM, John Fitt <jpfitt(at)sbcglobal.net (jpfitt(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | I’ve been struggling with getting my 503 dcdi fs ll to turn more than 5900 rpm static with a 62” 3 blade Warpdrive pitched all the way down to 8 1/4 degrees. Good compression, plugs good color, good running except for the low rpm. Has anyone had an ignition timing issue? Is there any adjustment or way to check this?Have not done measured static thrust test but it sure pulls strong against the rope tied to the tail - easily puts the tail up in the air.
Previous replies to this same question were “reduce prop pitch till you get 6200 -6300 rpm”
I’m at 8-1/4deg !?!?
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 5, 2018, at 7:05 AM, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com (lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | 58 to 60 would be the "normal" speed without any "improvements" made to clean it up.
Larry
On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 1:08 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>
Hi Larry,
What was the cruising speed you got from your HKS/Firestar BEFORE the strut fairings, gear leg fairings, etc?
I have only a few possibilities left if the "solid" center section fairing does not get me up to 60 MPH without the fairings:
1) Modify the intake maniforlds or use the "straight" intakes like yours, to point the carburetors forward into the airflow. Mine are the other curved type and my carburetors face rearward. This puts a little bit of suction at the carb inlet from forward speed AND the inlet be ing in the "suction" area in front of the prop.
2) Remove the entire exhaust system to mount the stock HKS exhaust. This will be difficult because my engine is lower on the mount plate than yours.
3) Trade my engine for another engine that has a 2.58 gearbox
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 11/4/18, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com (lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Subject: Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
To: "kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)" <kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)>
Date: Sunday, November 4, 2018, 8:16 AM
I can't add much
of anything to what John said, since most of my knowledge
comes from John in the first place. One thing I can add is
that the increase in airspeed comes from cleaning up the
drag- strut fairings, gear legs etc.
Anxiously waiting to
hear how the plane is going to fly.Larry
On Sun,
Nov 4, 2018 at 12:51 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>
wrote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by:
Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>
Today was first engine run (after my recent mods). My
modifications since last test flight were:
1) Move oil cooler from top surface of the wing down to 12
inches under the wing.
2) Move oil reservoir tank down underneath the wing.
3) Fabricate a "solid" cover for the center
section so that no air could "leak" or flow
upwards form the bottom to the top of the wing (causing drag
and bad airflow into the prop)
4) Move the fuel tank forward so it is now under the center
of gravity, so that the aircraft CG is not near the aft end
of the CG rrange.
On this test run, we were finally able to do a static thrust
measurement.
At 5850 RPM on the ground, the giant spring scale registered
250 pounds of thrust. The engine is nominally 58-60HP at its
redline of 6200 RPM, which means I was making 94% of max
RPM. This was with a 3 blade wide chord propeller, 65 inch
diameter, with 11 degrees of pitch measured at the tip.
So the purpose of this Kolb List post is to solicit
data/opinion/experience from Kolbers who have measured the
static thrust on their Rotax 503, 532, and 582 engines and
similar. I have NO IDEA if 250 pounds of thrust is a little,
a lot, average, below average, or incredible for a Firestar
2.
Kolbers...how does 250 pounds of thrust compare to what
static thrust YOU measured with your 503/532/582 on a Kolb?
Does 250 pounds of thrust seem correct for a "60HP
class" engine... somewhere between the 503 and 582?
How many pounds of thrust do YOU think is appropriate or
acceptable for Kolb being set up for short takeoff
performance?
The next step is to finalize the center section cover (I
made four or five of them trying to come up with what would
work best). Finally went with thin aluminum sheet metal and
Velcro. Once this is all finalized and installed, I can
resume my test flying, and see if this made enough
difference to raise the cruise speed to 65MPH.
Once I get to 63-65 MPH I can reduce drag using the
streamlilned strut fairings (from Dennis Carley / U-Fly-it)
and work on all of the little drag redusing things that Jack
Hart has documented on his Firefly. Hopefully I can get my
Firestar up to the 68-72 MPH cruise speed that Larry C is
getting on his Firestar / HKS setup.
Larry and I both have the same large bush tires and Firestar
2 airframe. I have a different gearbox and longer landing
gear legs than Larry does.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com
- safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit
entities
===========
br>
fts!)
r>
>
e.com" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
===========
-List" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer"
target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
WIKI -
errer"
target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
--
The
older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are
intolerant of others.
If you forward this email, or any part of
it, please remove my email address before sending.
===========
br> fts!)
r> > e.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
===========
-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
WIKI -
errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
|
--
The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.
If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.
|
|
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rascaljohn
Joined: 02 May 2013
Posts: 23
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:12 pm Post subject: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test |
|
|
As you recommended, I tried a “tiny tach” with the input sensor wire around the spark plug wire , in several different positions and number of wraps...the readings were way off- 12000 which might be some multiple of the real rpm, but...
So I can’t say that was useful. What other method or connection point is foolproof? My rpm is now shown on a GRT EIS monitor ( making sure that the input is for the 503)
Kolb recommended and sold me the prop, - 12 deg. recommended pitch starting point,
If I Allowed the plane to taxi and then observed that the rpm was increasing would this be a bad idea?
Sent from my iPhone
[quote] On Nov 5, 2018, at 12:22 PM, George Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Well, John the first thing that I would do is make tachometer is reading correctly.
I’m running a different engine and prop combination( 2702 Hirth with a 3 blade, 64” Powerfin)and I’m pitched at 6.7 degrees to obtain my maximum rpm of 5500rpm. This isn’t apples to apples because I’m running a low rpm high torque engine with a single carb, rated at 40 hp with 2:29 ratio gearbox.
Is this a single carb engine? I’d drop pitch to 6.5 degrees and see if that works. You’re also swinging a heavy prop. I think most guys run a 60” 3 blade on that engine? I’m not sure about that? I suspect your tach. If you had a timing issue it would be hard to start and probably would have burned up by now. As always it’s worth what it cost ya.
George H
Firestar, FS 100, 2702 Hirth
14GDH
Mesick, Michigan
gdhelton(at)gmail.com
Sent from my iPhone
> On Nov 5, 2018, at 12:48 PM, John Fitt <jpfitt(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> I’ve been struggling with getting my 503 dcdi fs ll to turn more than 5900 rpm static with a 62” 3 blade Warpdrive pitched all the way down to 8 1/4 degrees. Good compression, plugs good color, good running except for the low rpm. Has anyone had an ignition timing issue? Is there any adjustment or way to check this?
> Have not done measured static thrust test but it sure pulls strong against the rope tied to the tail - easily puts the tail up in the air.
> Previous replies to this same question were “reduce prop pitch till you get 6200 -6300 rpm”
> I’m at 8-1/4deg !?!?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Nov 5, 2018, at 7:05 AM, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> 58 to 60 would be the "normal" speed without any "improvements" made to clean it up.
>> Larry
>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 1:08 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Larry,
>>>
>>> What was the cruising speed you got from your HKS/Firestar BEFORE the strut fairings, gear leg fairings, etc?
>>>
>>> I have only a few possibilities left if the "solid" center section fairing does not get me up to 60 MPH without the fairings:
>>>
>>> 1) Modify the intake maniforlds or use the "straight" intakes like yours, to point the carburetors forward into the airflow. Mine are the other curved type and my carburetors face rearward. This puts a little bit of suction at the carb inlet from forward speed AND the inlet be ing in the "suction" area in front of the prop.
>>>
>>> 2) Remove the entire exhaust system to mount the stock HKS exhaust. This will be difficult because my engine is lower on the mount plate than yours
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
slingshot003
Joined: 10 Mar 2017
Posts: 28
Location: FL USA
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:29 pm Post subject: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test |
|
|
Bill,
John’s procedure for setting propeller pitch will definitely help you find the best all around setting, but it won’t tell you if your engine is producing the thrust that it should be capable of.
Static thrust will not tell you everything but it will tell you a lot. For aircraft with high cruise speed, it is possible for static thrust results to be almost useless, but for ultralight cruise speeds where max climb and max cruise are relatively close, your static thrust result will be a fairly good indicator of overall performance. Also, some props might vary by 20lbs static & not vary much at all in climb & cruise. Props have a bit of magic to them!
The way I pitched my props is similar to John. I pitched the prop until I it is about 400 rpm below the maximum engine rpm, then fine tune it from there. Most props will unload about 300-400 rpm from static to maximum speed.
Regarding your question about static thrust results: My Ultrastar with with 40hp cuyuna & 1.98:1 redrive 50” 2-blade got 225lbs. The 43hp version with a 60” 3-blade 2.59:1 redrive got 275 -295lbs ( the 295lbs was after I inlaid anti-vortex tips). If I remember correctly, my slingshot with 64hp 582, 2.59 redrive and 66” 3-blade was a little over 350lbs.
Hope this is of help. –Richard Swiderski
--
Click on to Richard's Blog:[/url]
[url=http://godstuffrichard.blogspot.com]Thoughts On God And Life -Prose, [b]Prayers, Poems & Ponderings
[/b]
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gdhelton(at)gmail.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:06 pm Post subject: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test |
|
|
If you’re pulling 5900 rpm static, I would fly it and see what I have inflight. There is a pretty good chance that you’re going to pick up that extra 300 rpm. I run the same GRT 2000 EIS. With a Rotax CDI it’s suppose be programed for you from the factory. So I’m guessing that’s not a problem. I know mine worked great once I changed the pulse input for a Hirth. You never said, if you’re running single or dual carbs?George H
Firestar
Mesick, Michigan
gdhelton(at)gmail.com (gdhelton(at)gmail.com)
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 5, 2018, at 5:12 PM, John Fitt <jpfitt(at)sbcglobal.net (jpfitt(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | As you recommended, I tried a “tiny tach” with the input sensor wire around the spark plug wire , in several different positions and number of wraps...the readings were way off- 12000 which might be some multiple of the real rpm, but...So I can’t say that was useful. What other method or connection point is foolproof? My rpm is now shown on a GRT EIS monitor ( making sure that the input is for the 503)
Kolb recommended and sold me the prop, - 12 deg. recommended pitch starting point,
If I Allowed the plane to taxi and then observed that the rpm was increasing would this be a bad idea?
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 5, 2018, at 12:22 PM, George Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com (gdhelton(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Well, John the first thing that I would do is make tachometer is reading correctly. I’m running a different engine and prop combination( 2702 Hirth with a 3 blade, 64” Powerfin)and I’m pitched at 6.7 degrees to obtain my maximum rpm of 5500rpm. This isn’t apples to apples because I’m running a low rpm high torque engine with a single carb, rated at 40 hp with 2:29 ratio gearbox.
Is this a single carb engine? I’d drop pitch to 6.5 degrees and see if that works. You’re also swinging a heavy prop. I think most guys run a 60” 3 blade on that engine? I’m not sure about that? I suspect your tach. If you had a timing issue it would be hard to start and probably would have burned up by now. As always it’s worth what it cost ya.
George H
Firestar, FS 100, 2702 Hirth
14GDH
Mesick, Michigan
gdhelton(at)gmail.com (gdhelton(at)gmail.com)
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 5, 2018, at 12:48 PM, John Fitt <jpfitt(at)sbcglobal.net (jpfitt(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | I’ve been struggling with getting my 503 dcdi fs ll to turn more than 5900 rpm static with a 62” 3 blade Warpdrive pitched all the way down to 8 1/4 degrees. Good compression, plugs good color, good running except for the low rpm. Has anyone had an ignition timing issue? Is there any adjustment or way to check this?Have not done measured static thrust test but it sure pulls strong against the rope tied to the tail - easily puts the tail up in the air.
Previous replies to this same question were “reduce prop pitch till you get 6200 -6300 rpm”
I’m at 8-1/4deg !?!?
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 5, 2018, at 7:05 AM, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com (lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | 58 to 60 would be the "normal" speed without any "improvements" made to clean it up.
Larry
On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 1:08 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>
Hi Larry,
What was the cruising speed you got from your HKS/Firestar BEFORE the strut fairings, gear leg fairings, etc?
I have only a few possibilities left if the "solid" center section fairing does not get me up to 60 MPH without the fairings:
1) Modify the intake maniforlds or use the "straight" intakes like yours, to point the carburetors forward into the airflow. Mine are the other curved type and my carburetors face rearward. This puts a little bit of suction at the carb inlet from forward speed AND the inlet be ing in the "suction" area in front of the prop.
2) Remove the entire exhaust system to mount the stock HKS exhaust. This will be difficult because my engine is lower on the mount plate than yours.
3) Trade my engine for another engine that has a 2.58 gearbox
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 11/4/18, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com (lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Subject: Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
To: "kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)" <kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)>
Date: Sunday, November 4, 2018, 8:16 AM
I can't add much
of anything to what John said, since most of my knowledge
comes from John in the first place. One thing I can add is
that the increase in airspeed comes from cleaning up the
drag- strut fairings, gear legs etc.
Anxiously waiting to
hear how the plane is going to fly.Larry
On Sun,
Nov 4, 2018 at 12:51 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>
wrote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by:
Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>
Today was first engine run (after my recent mods). My
modifications since last test flight were:
1) Move oil cooler from top surface of the wing down to 12
inches under the wing.
2) Move oil reservoir tank down underneath the wing.
3) Fabricate a "solid" cover for the center
section so that no air could "leak" or flow
upwards form the bottom to the top of the wing (causing drag
and bad airflow into the prop)
4) Move the fuel tank forward so it is now under the center
of gravity, so that the aircraft CG is not near the aft end
of the CG rrange.
On this test run, we were finally able to do a static thrust
measurement.
At 5850 RPM on the ground, the giant spring scale registered
250 pounds of thrust. The engine is nominally 58-60HP at its
redline of 6200 RPM, which means I was making 94% of max
RPM. This was with a 3 blade wide chord propeller, 65 inch
diameter, with 11 degrees of pitch measured at the tip.
So the purpose of this Kolb List post is to solicit
data/opinion/experience from Kolbers who have measured the
static thrust on their Rotax 503, 532, and 582 engines and
similar. I have NO IDEA if 250 pounds of thrust is a little,
a lot, average, below average, or incredible for a Firestar
2.
Kolbers...how does 250 pounds of thrust compare to what
static thrust YOU measured with your 503/532/582 on a Kolb?
Does 250 pounds of thrust seem correct for a "60HP
class" engine... somewhere between the 503 and 582?
How many pounds of thrust do YOU think is appropriate or
acceptable for Kolb being set up for short takeoff
performance?
The next step is to finalize the center section cover (I
made four or five of them trying to come up with what would
work best). Finally went with thin aluminum sheet metal and
Velcro. Once this is all finalized and installed, I can
resume my test flying, and see if this made enough
difference to raise the cruise speed to 65MPH.
Once I get to 63-65 MPH I can reduce drag using the
streamlilned strut fairings (from Dennis Carley / U-Fly-it)
and work on all of the little drag redusing things that Jack
Hart has documented on his Firefly. Hopefully I can get my
Firestar up to the 68-72 MPH cruise speed that Larry C is
getting on his Firestar / HKS setup.
Larry and I both have the same large bush tires and Firestar
2 airframe. I have a different gearbox and longer landing
gear legs than Larry does.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com
- safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit
entities
===========
br>
fts!)
r>
>
e.com" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
===========
-List" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer"
target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
WIKI -
errer"
target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
--
The
older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are
intolerant of others.
If you forward this email, or any part of
it, please remove my email address before sending.
===========
br> fts!)
r> > e.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
===========
-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
WIKI -
errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
|
--
The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.
If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.
|
|
|
|
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:13 pm Post subject: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test |
|
|
I agree totally with the logic, but the measurements and parameters I got from Duane at Kolb are showing that the wing is on the fuselage right. The trailing edge of the wing is set by the location of the U-joinot welded at the factory. The leading edge is set by where the bolt/pin hole is drilled in the spar fitting on the wing. This hole was almost exactly where Duane said the plans call for.
So w hat I am saying is that the airplane is behaving as if the incidences are all wrong, but the incidence measurements are correct as far as I can see.
If John H wants to take a vacation and come out to Los Angeles, use his know ledge and experience to get to the bottom of all this I would certainly welcome it... but I have a feeling he pretty much has no interest in being around Los Angeles city. Not many Kolbers here 
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 11/5/18, Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Subject: Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
To: "kolb-list(at)matronics.com" <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>
Date: Monday, November 5, 2018, 11:00 AM
Bill
Having to raise the horizontal
stabilizer as high as you have to is the symptom of the wing
being set with the leading edge too high and/or the trailing
edge too low. Your tail has to be flying way too high to
keep from climbing. You have a bunch more fuselage and tail
boom being pushed through the air than if it were lined up
with the air flow. It's a bit like putting your plane in
a slip for landing.
Sorry this all worth what you paid
for it and I'm probably wrong. After 44 years of
marriage my wife told me I was right for the 30th time last
night!!!!! I'm shooting for 40 before one of us
dies.
Rick NeilsenRedrive VW Powered
MKIIIC
On Mon,
Nov 5, 2018 at 11:37 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
Hi Rick, I did speak to Duane at Kolb a few times to verify
the proper measurements of the wing and tail incidence. My
wings sit on the fuselage at the correct angle within a
small fraction. My tailboom (fuselage tube) is at the
correct angle because that is set at the factory when they
weld the fuselage jig. My horizontal tail started out at the
correct angle (per Duane's measurement and the plans)
and I had to raise the tail in order for it to fly level.
Since then, John H and several other Kolbers were not happy
with the LE of the tail being raised up, so I moved the fuel
tank forward, so I can start lowering the tail back down
towards the "normal" setting.
I am not certain what the "level flight"
measurement is on the Firestar. I cannot recall if anyone
has an official concrete number "the bottom of the wing
has to be X degrees to the horizon for level flight".
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com
- safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit
entities
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 11/5/18, Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com>
wrote:
Subject: Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
To: "kolb-list(at)matronics.com"
<kolb-list(at)matronics.com>
Date: Monday, November 5, 2018, 6:40 AM
Bill
How about adjusting the wing angle
of attack to get your plane flying level? "When you
have eliminated all other possibilities then the answer
no
matter how improbable must be the answer".
Rick NeilsenRedrive VW Powered
MKIIIC
On Mon,
Nov 5, 2018 at 3:08 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
Hi Larry,
What was the cruising speed you got from your
HKS/Firestar
BEFORE the strut fairings, gear leg fairings, etc?
I have only a few possibilities left if the
"solid" center section fairing does not get me
up
to 60 MPH without the fairings:
1) Modify the intake maniforlds or use the
"straight" intakes like yours, to point the
carburetors forward into the airflow. Mine are the other
curved type and my carburetors face rearward. This puts a
little bit of suction at the carb inlet from forward
speed
AND the inlet be ing in the "suction" area in
front of the prop.
2) Remove the entire exhaust system to mount the stock
HKS
exhaust. This will be difficult because my engine is
lower
on the mount plate than yours.
3) Trade my engine for another engine that has a 2.58
gearbox
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com
- safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for non-profit and
for-profit
entities
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 11/4/18, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com>
wrote:
Subject: Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST
test
To: "kolb-list(at)matronics.com"
<kolb-list(at)matronics.com>
Date: Sunday, November 4, 2018, 8:16 AM
I can't add much
of anything to what John said, since most of my
knowledge
comes from John in the first place. One thing I can add
is
that the increase in airspeed comes from cleaning up
the
drag- strut fairings, gear legs etc.
Anxiously waiting to
hear how the plane is going to fly.Larry
On Sun,
Nov 4, 2018 at 12:51 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
Today was first engine run (after my recent mods). My
modifications since last test flight were:
1) Move oil cooler from top surface of the wing down to
12
inches under the wing.
2) Move oil reservoir tank down underneath the wing.
3) Fabricate a "solid" cover for the center
section so that no air could "leak" or flow
upwards form the bottom to the top of the wing (causing
drag
and bad airflow into the prop)
4) Move the fuel tank forward so it is now under the
center
of gravity, so that the aircraft CG is not near the aft
end
of the CG rrange.
On this test run, we were finally able to do a static
thrust
measurement.
At 5850 RPM on the ground, the giant spring scale
registered
250 pounds of thrust. The engine is nominally 58-60HP
at
its
redline of 6200 RPM, which means I was making 94% of
max
RPM. This was with a 3 blade wide chord propeller, 65
inch
diameter, with 11 degrees of pitch measured at the tip.
So the purpose of this Kolb List post is to solicit
data/opinion/experience from Kolbers who have measured
the
static thrust on their Rotax 503, 532, and 582 engines
and
similar. I have NO IDEA if 250 pounds of thrust is a
little,
a lot, average, below average, or incredible for a
Firestar
2.
Kolbers...how does 250 pounds of thrust compare to what
static thrust YOU measured with your 503/532/582 on a
Kolb?
Does 250 pounds of thrust seem correct for a "60HP
class" engine... somewhere between the 503 and
582?
How many pounds of thrust do YOU think is appropriate
or
acceptable for Kolb being set up for short takeoff
performance?
The next step is to finalize the center section cover
(I
made four or five of them trying to come up with what
would
work best). Finally went with thin aluminum sheet metal
and
Velcro. Once this is all finalized and installed, I can
resume my test flying, and see if this made enough
difference to raise the cruise speed to 65MPH.
Once I get to 63-65 MPH I can reduce drag using the
streamlilned strut fairings (from Dennis Carley /
U-Fly-it)
and work on all of the little drag redusing things that
Jack
Hart has documented on his Firefly. Hopefully I can get
my
Firestar up to the 68-72 MPH cruise speed that Larry C
is
getting on his Firestar / HKS setup.
Larry and I both have the same large bush tires and
Firestar
2 airframe. I have a different gearbox and longer
landing
gear legs than Larry does.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com
- safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for non-profit and
for-profit
entities
===========
br>
fts!)
r>
>
e.com"
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
===========
-List" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer"
target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
WIKI -
errer"
target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
--
The
older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are
intolerant of others.
If you forward this email, or any part of
it, please remove my email address before sending.
===========
br>
fts!)
r>
>
e.com"
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
===========
-List" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer"
target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
WIKI -
errer"
target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
===========
br>
fts!)
r>
>
e.com" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
===========
-List" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer"
target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
WIKI -
errer"
target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
craddojc(at)yahoo.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:26 pm Post subject: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test |
|
|
Bill,
FWIW, I measured my static thrust on my Ultrastar last year. Its Cuyuna 430 only has 30HP at sea level, and I ran this test at 6000' altitude (I live in Denver, CO). So it will be much lower HP than your rig, but I wanted to give you this data for comparison.
We recorded 163 lbs of thrust on a digital scale. I confirmed the scale's accuracy by checking it against my body weight...
Jeff in Colorado
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rex Rodebush
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 209
Location: Branson West area, Missouri
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:47 pm Post subject: Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test |
|
|
Bill,
Is there anything you can do to eliminate all the extraneous garbage attached to you comments? Takes up a lot of space. Maybe a setting is wrong?
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
Get Email Distribution Too!
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
