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Really pissed off customer

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n9242z+teamgrumman(at)gma
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 12:17 pm Post subject: Really pissed off customer

Some people are just completely unreasonable in their expectations.



BTW, do you think you can get my annual done the same day I bring it in? 

-- 

Kevin 

AA5B  [quote][b]

steven.jackson(at)ssinter
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 12:30 pm Post subject: Really pissed off customer

Sounds like he got a lot of "advice" from his friend that basically told him how you should do the work.  Obviously his friend isn't an A&P or he would not have brought the plane to you.  So, his "expert" buddy pumped him full of information about how to make it all happen.  And, when you didn't do what his buddy told him you should do, he got bent out of shape.  With the amount of work it seems you have backlogged, who needs customers like that?



Steve Jackson

AA-1B

N1434R

Reno, NV



--- teamgrumman(at)aol.com wrote:



From: teamgrumman(at)aol.com

To: undisclosed-recipients:;

Subject: Really pissed off customer

Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 15:49:35 -0400






Yep, I really pissed off a customer today.  He's from SoCal.  He 

brought his 92 Tiger up in July to get the engine removed (and 

overhauled by Lycon), an annual, and a FWF cleanup.  Well, I got the 

engine about a week ago and I've been installing it.  In the process, 

I've been cleaning up a lot of wiring.



Anyway.  The Tiger owner had negotiated the overhaul with LyCon before 

hand (no, it didn't bother me that I missed out on the rebate Ken gives 

me, cause I usually pass it on to the customer anyway ... whatever).  

He wanted the LASAR mags and high altitude-fine wire plugs (the RHM vs 

the REM.  Apparently, someone is telling him they are better).  When he 

dropped off the plane, he said he wanted me to measure for the LASAR 

wiring harness ahead of time because they take a lot of lead time.  A 

week or so later, we did a 3-way with a friend of his who is apparently 

familiar with LASAR installations.  His friend said, "Get some 1/4 inch 

clear vinyl tubing and use it to find the length you'll need to order 

for the LASAR."



OK, I'll try that.  Not having the LASAR control box in hand or knowing 

anything about the LASAR or how it's hooked up, I tried to imagine 

where the box would fit and where the wires should go.  I figured the 

size of the control box to be about the size of a paperback.  I thought 

the harness would plug directly into the mags (as it turns out, there 

is a 10 inch lead on each mag.  Plus, the leads have a modual of some 

sort, about 2 to 3 inches long and an inch in diameter, mounted about 

mid length so the lead from the mag isn't really all that flexible).  

OK, if the harness plugs into the mags and the module is about 4 x 6 

inches, it can be mounted here, here, or here.  I didn't know if the 

controller could be mounted inside or outside the cabin or even if it 

had a preference (sideways, upsidedown, ...) to how it's mounted.  

After layiing out the wiring about a dozen different ways and coming up 

with a lot of different lengths, I decided to wait for the engine and 

LASAR controller.  Too many variables to do a clean installation.  If 

you know me, I HATE hacked installations.  I especially hate wires 

draped from the fireway to the engine and all but making maintenance in 

the engine compartment totally impossible.  Speaking of, whoever 

installed the JPI, did just that.  Wires everywhere.  What a mess.



Back to the story.



Sometime after the engine went to LyCon, the owner called to see if I 

could get LyCon to hurry the overhaul.  He called a few times after 

that to see how far along engine was and when it could be finished.  

Each time I'd call Ken (at LyCon), I'd get the same story:  it's being 

worked on.  If you've ever done business with LyCon, you know they work 

at one speed.



During one of those conversations following his freind's instructions 

to me on how to measure the wires for the LASAR ignition harness, the 

Tiger owner said, "Did you measure the lengths for the harness?"  I 

told him I wasn't sure where to measure to or where to measure from.  

Since "I" wanted to do the best job possible, I told him I wanted to 

wait until the engine got back to me before I would know what harness I 

needed."     (Also, now that I have the installation instructions and 

can see how the harness is supposed to be measured and which 'dash' 

number I needed to order.  Without that, it would be impossible to 

know.)



Apparently, the Tiger owner either didn't hear me say that or I wasn't 

clear that I wanted to wait.  Either way, he wasn't aware I wanted to 

wait.  SOOOOOO, I got it all wired up yesterday; mostly, anyway.  That 

is, all except for installing the LASAR controller and the harness.   

When I started putting the controller in, I saw that it was a 12 volt 

controller; that would need to be exhanged.  For the harness, I had Ken 

(at LyCon) send me the most commonly ordered harness.  When I tried to 

install the harness ... oops, there was no way it would ever fit.  So, 

I'd have to custom order a harness.  I called Ken; he told me it was a 

6 week lead time.  I asked Ken to see if he could get one saying we had 

an AOG (Aircraft on ground).  He has been calling around to find one 

since yesterday.



This morning, the Tiger owner called to see how the installation was 

coming along.  I explained that I had the engine mostly all hooked up 

and wanted to know if he wanted new baffles and baffle seals.  Then, I 

added, "The harness I have for the LASAR won't fit. I need to order 

another one.  Ken said it would take 6 weeks.  Well, the owner started 

yelling at me, saying I totally ignored his instructions to measure for 

the harness ahead of time, telling me I didn't do what I was supposed 

to do, and on and on, and on.  He wouldn't let me explain to him what 

transpired between him dropping off the plane and yestarday.  At one 

point, I started yelling just trying to get his attention.  He was 

really pissed-off and only wanted his plane back.  We hung up.  I let 

him cool down, then called back about 20 minutes later to talk to him.  

Within minutes he's yelling at me again telling me how I had total 

disregard for his instructions to measure for the harness and order it 

ahead of time.  He said he wasn't waiting another 6 weeks.  When I 

tried to explain that I tried to measure but didn't know from WHERE to 

measure or where to measure TO, he just kept yelling that I had ignored 

him and showed total disregard for his instructions.  When he took a 

breath, I said, "Help me out here, how was I to measure something I had 

no idea how to measure?"  He told me, "That is your job. (or something 

to that effect)"  Clearly, this conversation wasn't going anywhere.  

Then he said, "Just put the old mags back on and fly it down here."  

That wasn't going to happen.  By the time I got the mags (back from 

Ken) and get a new mag wiring harness for the RHM plugs, put that all 

back together, I would have had all the LASAR parts back.



So, I'm waiting to hear from Ken.  In the mean time, I'm still putting 

everything back together.  Right now, I have 3 more planes waiting for 

annuals.  By the end of October, I'll have 3 more.  If I have to wait 6 

weeks, that puts it into the end of November.  I have 4 more planes 

coming in in November.  Trust me, no one wants his plane out of my 

hangar more than me.



Gary

PS, when he brought his plane in last July, I had 8 planes backed up.  

I moved his to the head of the line to get the engine to LyCon as soon 

as possible.

________________________________________________________________________

Check out the new AOL.  Most comprehensive set of free safety and 

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923te(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 1:50 pm Post subject: Really pissed off customer

Gary,



Maybe I could help you out. I have a LASAR on my AG5B that is a 24volt system. I have a spare harness that I intend to use to move my controller inside the cocpit with. It is 48" long. The harness on the plane is 18" long I believe. I won't be flying for a few weeks and I could have any of these parts removed and shipped if it will help.



There may be another way to get new lasar parts quicker. Call Steve Carter the LASAR engineer. He knows vendors with on shelf parts, one is in Canada,  he can give you phone numbers, anyway, he can also get parts hurried up in the production schedule. His number in Florida is: 



904 739-4068



 if he's not in be sure to leave him a message he will call back.



Whenever you finaly get the parts be sure you DO NOT HOOK UP THE POWER UNTIL THE CONTROLLER IS GROUNDED AND BE SURE TO GET THE POLARITY RIGHT. IF NOT IT WILL FRY THE CONTROLLER AND THE CONTROLLING MAG.....(don't even ask)



Let me know if I can help.

Best Regards,

Ned

GrummanDude

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 926
Location: Auburn, CA

Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 8:01 pm Post subject: Really pissed off customer

Sure.  And.  There are nice 3 bed/2bath homes here in Auburn under 

$90,000.



I do have your prop ready though.  As it turned out, the prop giu from 

Stockton propeller was in the neighborhood a week or so ago and picked 

up the 6 props I needed overhauled and picked up your prop and spacer.  

They are going to double check the track angles while they have it.



Gary



--

_________________
Gary
AuCountry Aviation
Home of Team Grumman

gjohnson(at)cccglobal.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 7:10 am Post subject: Really pissed off customer

I often get my annual done the same day I bring it  in.

 Maybe you should rethink the possible  options.

  

 I schedule it 3 months in advance.

 I have the wheel pants off.

 I have the access covers off.

 I have the interior empty and the seats  removed.

  

 I have it in the shop at 7:30am and I work with the  mechanic to complete the job in one day.

 Sometimes it takes part of the next day - like when we  removed the canopy and replaced the track rails.

  

 I then put all the parts back on in my  hangar.

  

 It can be done.

 

Greg J.

  



   From:  owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of  Kevin

Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 3:17 PM

To:  teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Really  pissed off customer

 

Some people are just completely unreasonable in their  expectations.



BTW, do you think you can get my annual done the same day I  bring it in? 

--  

Kevin 

AA5B [quote]



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List



[b]

mattd(at)drahz.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 4:59 am Post subject: Really pissed off customer

I am trying to figure out a way to outsource all of Gary's extra work to 

China.



..if we could only digitize a Grumman and send it overseas via a fiber 

connection....



/drahz

Kevin wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Some people are just completely unreasonable in their expectations.



 BTW, do you think you can get my annual done the same day I bring it 

 in?

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 1:16 pm Post subject: Really pissed off customer

Johnson, Greg wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		                  I often get my annual done the same day I bring it  in.

     Maybe you should rethink the possible  options.

      

     I schedule it 3 months in advance.

     I have the wheel pants off.

     I have the access covers off.

     I have the interior empty and the seats  removed.

      

     I have it in the shop at 7:30am and I work with the  mechanic to complete the job in one day.

     Sometimes it takes part of the next day - like when we  removed the canopy and replaced the track rails.

      

     I then put all the parts back on in my  hangar.

      

     It can be done.

       

 Greg J.

      

   	
 Well, now I have a goal.!  Mine usually takes two days ..... I take it all apart and he does the inspection.  I fix the squawks (still haven't got one squawk free) the rest of that day while the A&P/AI does the paperwork.  The next day he inspects the squawks and I put it all back together.  The last one was a little higher .... $150.00.  And no, you can't have him!!!

 Linn

 do not archive

     [quote][b]

aa1bflyboy(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 1:54 pm Post subject: Really pissed off customer

Well that would work fine if you do your annual where you are based. Not all 

of us are that fortunate. Where I'm tied down (hangers start in excess of 

$400 and the wait list is very deep), there are no Grumman savey S&Ps. So I 

fly out to a great guy who knows our birds. I remove the appropriate parts 

he does the inspection, goes over the squawk list with me I make the 

repairs, he inspects and signs off. No, I've never done mine squawk free 

either. I've never had the pleasure of a $150 annual but they did go down 

from year 1 to year 2.



If I'm right I have no need to be angry;

If I'm wrong I have no right to be...

Steve Roberts - AA-1B N9664L (at) ILG



 	  Quote: 	
		  I often get my annual done the same day I bring it in.

Maybe you should rethink the possible options.

  I schedule it 3 months in advance.

I have the wheel pants off.

I have the access covers off.

I have the interior empty and the seats removed.

  I have it in the shop at 7:30am and I work with the mechanic to complete 

the job in one day.

Sometimes it takes part of the next day - like when we removed the canopy 

and replaced the track rails.

  I then put all the parts back on in my hangar.

  It can be done.



Greg J.




	


Well, now I have a goal.!  Mine usually takes two days ..... I take it all 

apart and he does the inspection.  I fix the squawks (still haven't got one 

squawk free) the rest of that day while the A&P/AI does the paperwork.  The 

next day he inspects the squawks and I put it all back together.  The last 

one was a little higher .... $150.00.  And no, you can't have him!!!

Linn

do not archive

GrummanDude

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 926
Location: Auburn, CA

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 10:52 pm Post subject: Really pissed off customer

Hey Matt, how are things on the Right Coast?  You'd think pilots would 

know better than to fly into buildings there.



--

_________________
Gary
AuCountry Aviation
Home of Team Grumman

GrummanDude

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 926
Location: Auburn, CA

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:12 pm Post subject: Really pissed off customer

I just finished an annual on a plane that had 10 hours since its last 

annual.  That last annual cost the owner over $10,000.  I found the 

aileron cables wrappead around the rudder cables.  The right outer 

aileron bearing bracket torn nearly all the way through.  The aileron 

bearing bracket under the seat torn loose from it's mounting.  The 

brakes were so badly rusted they wouldn't work.  The owner told me, 

"I've had the right brake bled 4 times this last year.  It still 

doesn't work right."  Birds nests that completely filled both wing 

tips.  A primer that was plugged.  Ignition wires frayed through to 

where wire showed though.  Original 1978 hoses.  The list goes on.  And 

on.  And on.  This annual cost the owner almost $8,000.



Ten years ago, a guy brought me a Tiger and said, with much pride I 

might add, "I've never paid more than $500 for any annual in the last 

16 years."  I found 89 items that would ground the plane, including 6 

out of 12 bolts missing which hold the front seat brackets onto the 

spar and a broken bolt on the vertical.  I found a total of 116 items 

that needed attention; like 2 inches of dog hair, nuts, bolts, washers, 

wire ties, and trash in the bottom of the console between the front 

seats.  There was hardware wedged between the control cables and the 

pulleys.



Tell you what, how about both of you bring your plane to me, leave it a 

week, and pay me $100 for each and every item I find wrong after the 

annual.  Including hardware., baffles, hoses, ....



--

_________________
Gary
AuCountry Aviation
Home of Team Grumman

Anna Longwell

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 6
Location: Palo Alto, CA

Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 5:23 am Post subject: Really pissed off customer

perhaps people bring you the   basket cases-and there are lots of them, so you need not fear lack of assignments  [quote][b]

mattd(at)drahz.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 3:50 pm Post subject: Really pissed off customer

Ironically I know the building -  it is 1 block away from the place I 

stay when I am in the City.



/drahz

teamgrumman(at)aol.com wrote:

[quote] 



 Hey Matt, how are things on the Right Coast?  You'd think pilots would 

 know better than to fly into buildings there.



 --

aa1bflyboy(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 7:11 pm Post subject: Really pissed off customer

I heard a rumour the Yankees are part of a terrorist group.



Steve Roberts - AA-1B N9664L (at) ILG



Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 02:52:12 -0400




Hey Matt, how are things on the Right Coast?  You'd think pilots would know 

better than to fly into buildings there.



--

gjohnson(at)cccglobal.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 8:20 am Post subject: Really pissed off customer

I would love to.

The reason my last two annuals were so short is that I spent $30k with Bill Scott at Precision Engine after I bought the plane to do all those things you are talking about.

You could probably still find a few things wrong. 

I think there is always something on every plane that needs work.

I have seen one mechanic that changes a part, only to have the next one remove it and replace it with the original. Both of them would have said the other setup was 'wrong'.

And I always do something each year to maintain the plane above the required airworthy issues.



This year I am replacing all the aluminum fuel lines in the plane.



Greg J.

--

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