Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - Fuel pump

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Fuel pump - gascolator
Goto page 1, 2 Next

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Zenith-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

VideoFlyer(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 5:43 am Post subject: Fuel pump - gascolator

I'm mounting my wings and working on my fuel lines (601XL).   I was going to put a fuel pump in each wing, right by the tank.  But as I look at the whole situation, I'm wondering if it wouldn't  easier, and more accessible, to put the Facet fuel pumps inside the cockpit.  I know what they sound like....but once the engine is running, I think the click would be unnoticeable.   I see installations where the fuel pump is on the firewall, and in the wing....why not in the cockpit?  Is the noise the only reason?

  

 Also, can someone tell me the purpose of the gascolator?   It's a fuel strainer (I already have two other filters in the system) and located properly, it's a good place to drain water from the system ( I can also do that at the tank).  Other than these two redundant functions, is there some reason why a gascolator is necessary?  Or is it a requirement for the FAA inspection?  You can see where I'm going with this.....if it isn't really necessary, why put it in?  

  

 Thanks for your help.  I have learned so much from contributors to this list.  It's great!

  

  

 Dave Harms

 videoflyer(at)aol.com (videoflyer(at)aol.com)

 601XL/Corvair

  [quote][b]

jonathan(at)entry.co.za
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:08 am Post subject: Fuel pump - gascolator

Hi Dave,

  

 I did NOT fit the  Gascolator - also thought is was silly Have two inline filters etc... Just drain  the water from the tanks, so far no problems...

  

 I fitted the Facet pumps  in the wings, next to the tank (Keep the line short etc....) was BAD idea, as my  one pump has already stopped working, and because it is not convenient to make a  hatch between two ribs that are so close, I didn't - now I have to remove the  wing toi fix it... I am also thinking about putting the pumps in the cockpit.  You CAN hear the pumps, when installen in the wings in any case, but not with  the motor running, so I expect it to be the same!

  

 Have flow and taken off  without the pumps at all, and no problems, but feel if I have a blocked  line/fuel filter, the pumps would save the day!

  

  

 601XL 

 47Hrs on the clock and  counting (Lovingit!)

 Jonathan  Starke

  



 [quote]         From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com    [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of    VideoFlyer(at)aol.com

Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 3:42    PM

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Zenith-List:    Fuel pump - gascolator

   

   I'm mounting my wings and working on my fuel lines (601XL).   I    was going to put a fuel pump in each wing, right by the tank.  But as I    look at the whole situation, I'm wondering if it wouldn't  easier, and    more accessible, to put the Facet fuel pumps inside the cockpit.  I know    what they sound like....but once the engine is running, I think the click    would be unnoticeable.   I see installations where the fuel    pump is on the firewall, and in the wing....why not in the cockpit?  Is    the noise the only reason?

    

   Also, can someone tell me the purpose of the gascolator?   It's a    fuel strainer (I already have two other filters in the system) and located    properly, it's a good place to drain water from the system ( I can also do    that at the tank).  Other than these two redundant functions, is there    some reason why a gascolator is necessary?  Or is it a requirement for    the FAA inspection?  You can see where I'm going with this.....if it    isn't really necessary, why put it in?  

    

   Thanks for your help.  I have learned so much from contributors to    this list.  It's great!

    

    

   Dave Harms

   videoflyer(at)aol.com (videoflyer(at)aol.com)

   601XL/Corvair

 	  Quote: 	
		  



href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com

href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com

href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com

href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron

	
[b]

dredmoody(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:15 am Post subject: Fuel pump - gascolator

I have no opinion pro or con on the gascolator.... I tend to like redundancy but you seem to have its function adequately covered. Other more experienced listers may have a better perspective on that.



I have two Facet pumps located in the wings at the inboard end of the tank. The positive is that they are never going to get abused by the passenger or pilot's feet. The negative is that they are more difficult to inspect or replace where I've mounted them. Mounted on the floor of the cockpit places them even lower relative to the bottom of the fuel tanks and that is a definite plus. Th eless a pump has to suck fuel uphill the less chance of forming vapor bubbles at high temps and high altitude.



Ed Moody II

Rayne, LA

601XL/Jabiru/cabin area



 I see 

 	  Quote: 	
		   installations where the fuel pump is on the firewall, and in the wing....why not 

 in the cockpit?  Is the noise the only reason?

 

 Also, can someone tell me the purpose of the gascolator?> Dave Harms

 videoflyer(at)aol.com

 601XL/Corvair

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:52 am Post subject: Re: Fuel pump - gascolator

I had intended to put pumps near the wing roots but after spending the weekend at William Wynne's Corvair College I'm rethinking that decision.



He gives a pretty good argument for pumps on the engine side of the firewall. Namely the idea of having fuel, under pressure, being pumped into the cockpit if you crash.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

dredmoody(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:58 am Post subject: Fuel pump - gascolator

Two things in reply here: If you don't have another really good water ELIMINATOR in the fuel system, keep the gascolator in your system design. The water drain in the tank is not at the absolute bottom of the tank so no matter how often you use it, a little bit of water will remain below the interior level of the welded drain fitting. When you start up and the plane is vibrating that remaining water is agitated, mixes with your fuel and will move with your fuel toward the engine. Some more completely effective water removing appliance is necessary farther down the line. Whether it's a gascolator or some other water separating filter is your choice of course.



Second, (this is obvious) it's never a good idea to install something like a fuel pump where you can't access it. I'm not sure why you felt that the area inboard of the tank is too tight for an access port/hatch. I did it without any difficulty and I believe others have also.



Ed Moody II



---- Jonathan Starke <jonathan(at)entry.co.za> wrote: 

 	  Quote: 	
		   Hi Dave,

  

 I did NOT fit the Gascolator - also thought is was silly Have two inline filters

 etc... Just drain the water from the tanks, so far no problems...

  

 I fitted the Facet pumps in the wings, next to the tank (Keep the line short

 etc....) was BAD idea, as my one pump has already stopped working, and because

 it is not convenient to make a hatch between two ribs that are so close, I

 didn't - now I have to remove the wing toi fix it...

daveaustin2(at)can.rogers
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 7:30 am Post subject: Fuel pump - gascolator

I understand a gascolator is an absolute requirement in Canada, it must be

at the lowest point in the fuel feed and accessible so that it can be

sampled before every flight.

Dave Austin  601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII

dredmoody(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 7:43 am Post subject: Fuel pump - gascolator

Hi Gig,



It seems to me that after a crash, the fuel lines would be damaged almost anywhere else before they would rupture, cut, or tear in the cabin interior. Any fuel being pumped would most likely be going somewhere else.



I can't see that as a convincing arguement to require the pump to suck fuel uphill to the selector valve, but that's just my opinion. Any uphill area BEFORE the pump is a low pressure area that I'd like to eliminate.



You have given me a good thought though. An easy to hit shutoff switch for the fuel pump is a good idea. You don't want it off on final but once you are committed to stay on the surface, it would be a good idea in an off field landing to shut that down immediately. Of course if the landing is a dead stick one, you would already have shut all that down from your checklist, right?



Ed Moody II



---- Gig Giacona <wr.giacona(at)cox.net> wrote: 

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I had intended to put pumps near the wing roots but after spending the weekend at William Wynne's Corvair College I'm rethinking that decision.

 

 He gives a pretty good argument for pumps on the engine side of the firewall. Namely the idea of having fuel, under pressure, being pumped into the cockpit if you crash.

clojan(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 8:02 am Post subject: Fuel pump - gascolator

Gig: I put the fuel pump on the floorboard right in front of the gascolator just before the fire wall. I had a lot of concerns about the fuel system but so far it has worked perfectly. This position doesn't address you fire issue but fuel flowing or fuel pumping in a crash are equally as bad.  Jack in Los Osos cA



Gig Giacona <wr.giacona(at)cox.net> wrote:

  [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" 



I had intended to put pumps near the wing roots but after spending the weekend at William Wynne's Corvair College I'm rethinking that decision.



He gives a pretty good argument for pumps on the engine side of the firewall. Namely the idea of having fuel, under pressure, being pumped into the cockpit if you crash.



--------

W.R. "Gig" Giacona

601XL Under Construction

See my [quote][b]

p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:12 am Post subject: Fuel pump - gascolator

Hi Ed,



I'm glad to see we are back on airplane stuff instead of censorship.



I would hope anyone doing an emergency landing would turn off the 

master switch.  That will kill all the electrical stuff.  So you not 

only stop pumping fuel, you even cut off many of the spark sources.



Paul

XL fuselage

do not archive





 	  Quote: 	
		  You have given me a good thought though. An easy to hit shutoff 

switch for the fuel pump is a good idea. You don't want it off on 

final but once you are committed to stay on the surface, it would be 

a good idea in an off field landing to shut that down immediately. 

Of course if the landing is a dead stick one, you would already have 

shut all that down from your checklist, right?



Ed Moody II


	


-

ccwacker(at)HOTMAIL.COM
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:17 am Post subject: Fuel pump - gascolator

I'm confused, I only recieved one fule pump from Zenith. Should I have 

received two? My plan was to place the fuel pump after the gascolator on the 

floor of the cockpit.



Chuck Wacker

N601CW, quick build

Engine installed



 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "Gig Giacona" <wr.giacona(at)cox.net>

Reply-To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Fuel pump - gascolator

Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 06:52:47 -0800






I had intended to put pumps near the wing roots but after spending the 

weekend at William Wynne's Corvair College I'm rethinking that decision.



He gives a pretty good argument for pumps on the engine side of the 

firewall. Namely the idea of having fuel, under pressure, being pumped into 

the cockpit if you crash.



--------

W.R. &quot;Gig&quot; Giacona

601XL Under Construction

See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=74991#74991






	


_________________________________________________________________

Get the latest Windows Live Messenger 8.1 Beta version. Join now. 

http://ideas.live.com

clojan(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 10:35 am Post subject: Fuel pump - gascolator

Charles: We have gone round n round on this subject. Check the archives. Zenith believes that one is fine. Some have place 2 pumps in the wing roots to help with vapor lock and so the fuel doesn't have to be sucked uphill. I used one for simplicity. Mine run from the tanks  to a valve and down to the gascolater and then up to the pump and continue up to the engine.  Just remember not to have any low points in your lines without drains. Worked for 50 hrs so far. Jack

 	  Quote: 	
		  


	


   Jack Russell -Clovis CA

601 XL Jabiru 3300

  Progress update at:

 http://www.geocities.com/clojan(at)sbcglobal.net/zodiacbarn.html



 [quote][b]

Tim Juhl

Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 488
Location: "Thumb" of Michigan

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 10:44 am Post subject: Re: Fuel pump - gascolator

The fuel pump supplied by ZAC is a 40105  (2.5 to 4.5 psi I believe.)  Your fuel pump requirements are affected somewhat by whether or not your engine choice has a mechanical fuel pump and what pressures the carb can tolerate.



â€¢I believe that the Corvair has no engine-driven pump.  The example I saw at Oshkosh had two electric fuel pumps in series on the firewall.

â€¢The Continental 0-200 MAY have a engine-driven fuel pump installed....most do not.

â€¢I'm ignorant of the Rotax set up.

â€¢The Jabiru 3300 has a engine-driven pump that has been shown to pull at least 18 inches of fuel. Fuel pressure to the Bing carb should be kept below 4 psi making the facet 40104 a better pump choice. 



You've got a little downhill flow with the XL fuel system.  I see a bigger issue with the way the selector valve is plumbed.... I'm tempted to use an extension shaft to keep it at floor level and install a fuel pump on the outside of the lower firewall.  The nature of fluids is such that once flow is established whether the pump is pushing or pulling should make little difference. The electric pump is just there to give it a little "boost."



Tim

_________________
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Almost done! It'll fly in spring!

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:08 pm Post subject: Fuel pump - gascolator

Water collects at the low  points in your fuel system and the tanks are not the low point. So the drains in  your tanks may snag a little water but not all. Place the gascolator at the  lowest place and it will catch the most water. I think a fuel system is a bad  place to be creative.

  

 --  Craig

   [quote][b]

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:46 pm Post subject: Fuel pump - gascolator

William Wynne's design for the Corvair fuel system includes an oil pressure

switch which kills the power to the fuel pumps when there is no oil

pressure. I hope I will make it through my checklist before I crash but I

don't assume it. 



-- Craig

VideoFlyer(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:47 pm Post subject: Fuel pump - gascolator

In a message dated 11/16/2006, craig(at)craigandjean.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  <<<I think a fuel system is a bad place to be creative.>>> 	
 Since I'm the one who started this thread, I would have to say...on the one hand, I agree!  

  

 On the other hand, at this stage of construction/completion, the instructions from Zenith are pretty non-existant.  I have had to be pretty "creative" for the last several months while building this plane.  This is not a complaint...I've enjoyed it immensely and I have always considered myself a "problem solver."  

  

 It's not hard to understand why there are no two 601s alike!  Everyone solves their problems in slightly different ways.  But as I said before, this list has been an excellent source of knowledge and help.

  

 Thanks again

  

 Dave Harms

 

  [quote][b]

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 2:02 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel pump - gascolator

That is true for the primary pump. WW has the second pump come on when the secondary ignition is activated.



 	  craig(at)craigandjean.com wrote: 	
		  William Wynne's design for the Corvair fuel system includes an oil pressure

switch which kills the power to the fuel pumps when there is no oil

pressure. I hope I will make it through my checklist before I crash but I

don't assume it. 



-- Craig

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 2:21 pm Post subject: Fuel pump - gascolator

True, which is a strong argument for using one pump as the primary and the

other as backup instead of treating both as equals.



-- Craig

ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 3:07 pm Post subject: Fuel pump - gascolator

Hello Jonathan,

   

  If it was my airplane, I will install a gascolator,  Fotunate not in any of the engines when flying.  But in my motorcycle, a big drop of water in the carburator stoped the engine cold in the middle of heavy trafiic downtown,  didnt started until I opened the carburator bowl to clean it.  Here in my city. that was more dangerous that gliding down in the ultralight 

   

  Just another drain to push,  4 seconds for a better flying afternoon 

   

  Saludos

  Gary Gower

  Mexico. 



Jonathan Starke <jonathan(at)entry.co.za> wrote:

  [quote]    Hi Dave,

    

  I did NOT fit the Gascolator - also thought is was silly Have two inline filters etc... Just drain the water from the tanks, so far no problems...

   

  I fitted the Facet pumps in the wings, next to the tank (Keep the line short etc....) was BAD idea, as my one pump has already stopped working, and because it is not convenient to make a hatch between two ribs that are so close, I didn't - now I have to remove the wing toi fix it... I am also thinking about putting the pumps in the cockpit. You CAN hear the pumps, when installen in the wings in any case, but not with the motor running, so I expect it to be the same!

   

   Have flow and taken off without the pumps at all, and no problems, but feel if I have a blocked line/fuel filter, the pumps would save the day!

   

   

  601XL 

  47Hrs on the clock and counting (Lovingit!)

  Jonathan Starke

   



  [quote]      From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of VideoFlyer(at)aol.com

Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 3:42 PM

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Fuel pump - gascolator

  

  I'm mounting my wings and working on my fuel lines (601XL).   I was going to put a fuel pump in each wing, right by the tank.  But as I look at the whole situation, I'm wondering if it wouldn't  easier, and more accessible, to put the Facet fuel pumps inside the cockpit.  I know what they sound like....but once the engine is running, I think the click would be unnoticeable.   I see installations where the fuel pump is on the firewall, and in the wing....why not in the cockpit?  Is the noise the only reason?

   

  Also, can someone tell me the purpose of the gascolator?   It's a fuel strainer (I already have two other filters in  the system) and located properly, it's a good place to drain water from the system ( I can also do that at the tank).  Other than these two redundant functions, is there some reason why a gascolator is necessary?  Or is it a requirement for the FAA inspection?  You can see where I'm going with this.....if it isn't really necessary, why put it in?  

   

  Thanks for your help.  I have learned so much from contributors to this list.  It's great!

   

   

  Dave Harms

  videoflyer(at)aol.com (videoflyer(at)aol.com)

  601XL/Corvair

[quote][b]    href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com  href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com  href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com  href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com   Mortgage rates as low as 4.625% - $150,000 loan for $579 a month. Intro-*Terms [quote][b]

zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 3:39 pm Post subject: Fuel pump - gascolator

AS reported earlier, in Canada you MUST have a Gascolator installed in the lowest part of your system and it cannot have a glass bowl! In practice It must be something to do with the Great White North because If I am ever going to see water in my system it will be in my Gascolator. You can check the tanks and have nothing in your cup and yet still get a half cup of water from the collator. Yes it is a glorified screen for particles and I have fine particle screen filters in both wing roots ( in Canada you are not allowed to use paper filters) but it is the action of the fuel bowl that is truly important. For us Canadians we don’t have an option of omitting the Gascolator, however I would not hop in your plane if you didn’t have one installed. Guys it is a small thing and I really like the one Vans sell for $78 bucks. This is a small price to pay for a safer fuel system.  

     

Mark Townsend  

Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.  

president(at)can-zacaviation.com (president(at)can-zacaviation.com)  

www.can-zacaviation.com   

  

   

--

Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 4:02 pm Post subject: Fuel pump - gascolator

If you email me your name and address I will give you the one that came  with my 601 kit.... I used the one WW recommends for the corvair install and  have no use for it.

  

 Do not archive

 Jeff

  [quote][b]

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Zenith-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page 1, 2 Next
Page 1 of 2

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum