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Quest for knowledge-new kitfox fan

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rick(at)rickdaniels.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 4:53 pm Post subject: Quest for knowledge-new kitfox fan

Greetings list.  I am a private pilot (since  1969) gone light sport and have developed a lot of interest in the Kitfox.   Time constraints mandate either a project already started or one  completed.  I am going to purchase one any day now but after reading the  posts on this list over the last several days and searching the archives I find  that I need to start asking some questions.  I have found a model III and a  Model IV that I am considering purchasing.  I think the model III is a  better deal but need some experienced Kitfox flyers (like yourselves) to tell me  why and if one should favor the model IV over the Model III.  The  Kitfox website explains the improvements of the model IV over the Model III very  well.  I guess my real question is "is there a reason to stay away from the  Model III.  I should probably add that I live in western Montana so  mountain flying will be an everyday experience.  I don't think I want to  learn new tricks at this stage of my life and get rated in a taildragger so I  plan on converting which ever one I decide to buy to tri-gear.  Would  welcome any input in that area as well. (I know "real aviators fly taildraggers"  and all the other clichés but I know where I am  comfortable).  Finally, how does one get in touch with a "Merle  Williams" Thanks in advance for your  help.  

    [quote][b]

cliffh(at)outdrs.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 7:02 pm Post subject: Quest for knowledge-new kitfox fan

Rick,

 Where are you located?

 I am in Helena with a model 4  speedster.

  

 Floran H.

 [quote]   ---

rick(at)rickdaniels.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 7:47 pm Post subject: Quest for knowledge-new kitfox fan

Floran

 In Canyon Ferry, we are neighbors. I would like to  look at your speedster.  I am in the book, call me if you  will.

  

 Rick

  

 do not archive

    [quote][b]

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 8:43 pm Post subject: Quest for knowledge-new kitfox fan

At 04:51 PM 11/16/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I think the model III is a better deal but need some experienced Kitfox 

flyers (like yourselves) to tell me why and if one should favor the model 

IV over the Model III.


	


Well now. . . I can't speak for the III, but the IV is clearly the BEST 

Kitfox out there. And of the IV's, the ones with 582 are clearly the BEST. 

Of course it isn't just the aircraft. You have to understand that IV pilots 

are a breed apart: handsome, intelligent, witty, and superlative pilots. 

You'll want to think long and hard about whether you have the moxie, the 

chutzpah, the sheer unadulterated machismo required to fly a IV. If so come 

join us. We're an elite group, but friendly to our equals. (GD&R)

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.



Do not archive

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

iworonko(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 3:32 am Post subject: Quest for knowledge-new kitfox fan

Well put Guy,

accept you were mistaken on one point. It is the Rotax 912 powered Kitfox IV 

pilots who are the handsome specimens.

Eric

---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 6:04 am Post subject: Quest for knowledge-new kitfox fan

There's a bit of a question on the model of my plane.  For the sake of

avoiding an argument I'll call it a model II or model III-A.



If wing folding is important to you ( as well as looking good ) model II

&III don't require anything be undone to fold the wings.  The down side is

you will get an extra 150 lb. of weight to fly in the model IV....  I think

the flaperon mixing boxes were changed in the model IV to correct for

adverse yaw.  Also the vertical stab/rudder is a bit bigger.



When you fold your wings you will need a stand for the tail of the plane

(nose wheel) because folding the wings puts the CG waaaay aft of the mains.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

kirkhull(at)kc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 6:10 am Post subject: Quest for knowledge-new kitfox fan

You guy just haven't seen the rare and spectacular Subaru powered IV or you

would never say anything like that



--

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 6:14 am Post subject: Re: Quest for knowledge-new kitfox fan

Rick, I am a Classic 4 builder, not a flyer yet.  I thought a lot about converting my plane to a Tri Gear after it was finished.  I came to the conclusion that it was beyond my skill and wallet to do that.  A later model with the tri gear option built into the fuselage may be less expensive to convert in the long run.  You probably are planing on getting some expert advise on what the conversion will involve for a specific plane before you purchase.



Get a copy of the weight and balance sheet and play the weight shifting game on a computer weight and balance program to see what the conversion will do to it. 



Other than that, there are too many variables to suggest what plane will be best for you.  That would be like telling you what woman to marry.



Tom Jones, Ellensburg, WA

crazyivan

Joined: 25 Aug 2006
Posts: 62
Location: Pensacola

Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 7:26 am Post subject: Re: Quest for knowledge-new kitfox fan

I completely agree with Guy...except for the 582 thing.  Those 2-stroke pilots are a breed of their own with big ole' coconuts.   Just kidding  



Don't know much about the 582 but I love the 912UL (80hp).  Smooth, strong, efficient.



Not only are there differences in the Model III and IV but there are differences in the Model IVs.  The later versions (Speedster and Classic)have a larger horizontal stab and that stab has an airfoil instead of the earlier slab stabs.

_________________
Dave
Piper PA-22/20

msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 7:32 am Post subject: Quest for knowledge-new kitfox fan

Hi Rick.

   

  You've made a wise choice in looking at a Kitfox for your next airplane. I think I speak for (practically) everyone on this list is saying that pound for pound and dollar for dollar, the KF is the best thing going. We all love our Foxes, and I certainly love my Model 2.

   

  My only regret is that the MGTOW of the 2 is only 950#. At 535# empty, adding 13 gal fuel and me, that leaves only about 180# for passenger and "stuff." I hate leaving fuel on the ground. The models 3 and 4, similarly equipped, can be built to weigh not much more empty but will handle 100 and 250 more lbs of useful load, respectively, than my M2.

   

  I got a good deal on my airplane ("98% complete") and I love it. But if I could find a similarly well made classic 4 (1200# gross) project at a good price, I'd be all over that.



Rick Daniels  <rick(at)rickdaniels.com> wrote:

  [quote]        Greetings list.  I am a private pilot (since 1969) gone light sport and have developed a lot of interest in the Kitfox.  Time constraints mandate either a project already started or one completed.  I am going to purchase one any day now but after reading the posts on this list over the last several days and searching the archives I find that I need to start asking some questions.  I have found a model III and a Model IV that I am considering purchasing.  I think the model III is a better deal but need some experienced Kitfox flyers (like yourselves) to tell me why and if one should favor the model IV over the Model III.  The Kitfox website explains the improvements of the model IV over  Don't quit your job  - take classes online and earn your degree in 1 year. Start Today [quote][b]

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 8:17 am Post subject: Quest for knowledge-new kitfox fan

And if you get the IV without the vertical stab/rudder being airfoiled, 

you can do it yourself...a little work, but worth it in my book. And of 

course don't overlook the Jabiru 2200,  85 hp engine as an 

option....simple, aircooled, low (3300 max) rpm, no adjustable props 

yet (ok, maybe that's a drawback), just a simple engine that runs VERY 

well, smooth, economical, blah, blah, blah. I may retract some of this 

when I get to my first mountain, but for now, it's doing me just right 

after 180+ hours of flight time.



Lynn

On Friday, November 17, 2006, at 10:26  AM, crazyivan wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I completely agree with Guy...except for the 582 thing.  Those 

 2-stroke pilots are a breed of their own with big ole' coconuts.   

 Just kidding [Laughing]



 Don't know much about the 582 but I love the 912UL (80hp).  Smooth, 

 strong, efficient.



 Not only are there differences in the Model III and IV but there are 

 differences in the Model IVs.  The later versions (Speedster and 

 Classic)have a larger horizontal stab and that stab has an airfoil 

 instead of the earlier slab stabs.



 --------

 Dave

 Speedster 912 UL





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=75252#75252

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 8:34 am Post subject: Quest for knowledge-new kitfox fan

At 04:51 PM 11/16/2006, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I guess my real question is "is there a reason to stay away from the Model III.  	


 Now that I put the silliness out of the way. . .



 No I don't think there's any reason to stay away from any Kitfox. They all did different things well and none were in any way "wrong". If you have developed a lot of interest in Kitfox, spending $29.95 on Edward S. Downs' book "Kitfox Pilots Guide" would be an excellent pre-purchase investment. I believe you can get them from www.kitfoxllc.com . It will tell you the specific differences between the III and various models of IV's and will tell you a lot about engine choices, and ground and flight handling. It's money well spent.



 Regarding your statement "I don't think I want to learn new tricks at this stage of my life and get rated in a taildragger so I plan on converting which ever one I decide to buy to tri-gear. " I understand, and there are a bunch of the pilots in the Southwest who have done the same, but I think you are being too hard on yourself. Learning to fly a taildragger is probably the best VFR "refresher" you can do. And I have found that launching and landing a tailwheel IV is just not that hard. (I had a grand total of 20 hours in a Citabria and 2 hours in a Kitfox when I started flying mine. It has the narrow bungee gear and the long wings and is still easier to land than the Citabria. I do both wheel and 3-point landings, and mostly on pavement.) Sure you have to think about it, but stories about "taming the wild beast" are grossly exaggerated. (Probably to inflate the teller's ego!) I just wouldn't make a purchase decision based on whether it was a taildragger or not. If it's a taildragger get checked out and fly it like that for a while, then convert it if you still feel uncomfortable. (No, you won't crash it.) Meanwhile get on YouTube and check out some of the bush flying videos. You'll then understand the benefits of conventional gear and one of the strengths of the Kitfox III and IV.



 Finally, Murle Williams is at  http://murlewilliamsaviation.com/.



 

 Guy     [quote][b]

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

rick(at)rickdaniels.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:53 am Post subject: Quest for knowledge-new kitfox fan

Wow!!!! I'm impressed even with  the humor.  I did not expect such a response.  Thank you  all.

     I failed to mention that the III  has a "high performance" ea-81 subaru, the IV is a 582 rotax. Am I to understand  that the III is a 100mph airplane regardless of engine because of the wing  config.?  Also, someone cautioned me about the III's altitude ability which  is a real concern for me in the mountains.  Is that because of the airplane  or engine?  

    [quote][b]

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 11:58 am Post subject: Quest for knowledge-new kitfox fan

On Nov 17, 2006, at 6:50 PM, Rick Daniels wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Am I to understand that the III is a 100mph airplane regardless of 

 engine because of the wing config.?


	


Yes, the undercambered wings, the flaperons and the lexan, Rick. On my 

model 3, I have a  Jabiru 2200 and I can't use full throttle at level 

because I would bust the red line of 100 MPH. But that's not a problem 

with me, I like to fly and have no haste to arrive to destination! 



 	  Quote: 	
		     Also, someone cautioned me about the III's altitude ability which is 

 a real concern for me in the mountains.  Is that because of the 

 airplane or engine? 


	


Probably the engine, I can't think of anything that would prevent the 

plane itself. In Norway, I fly up to 8,500 ft to pass over the 

mountains, both with the original Rotax 582 and the new Jabiru and 

never noticed a problem. Incidentally, the Jabiru has an 

altitude-compensated Bing carburettor but ... I don't notice a 

difference in performance, both engines are quite good.



Cheers,

Michel

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

f.miles.tcp.833(at)clearw
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 12:06 pm Post subject: Quest for knowledge-new kitfox fan

Does anyone know if the 582 can be outfitted with an altitude-compensating

carburetor, Bing or otherwise?



Frank



--

wingnut

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 356

Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 12:51 pm Post subject: Re: Quest for knowledge-new kitfox fan

Are you going to get a local A&P to check the plane before you buy? I did with mine when I bought it and am glad for it. It was a greate comfort. I do wonder about the available payload on that Model III. The Subaru is a heavy engine and the III already has a lower gross then the IV.



-Luis

-824KF

Clem Nichols

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 88
Location: Munfordville, Ky

Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:19 pm Post subject: Quest for knowledge-new kitfox fan

Rick:

  

 I notice that the Model 3 you're considering has an  EA81 Subaru engine in it.  I have a Model 4 with the EA81 in it, and the  only thing I don't like about the plane is that it's basically a one-place plane  with an extra seat in it.  By that I mean that the empty weight is 820  pounds, and the gross weight for the Model 4 is 1200 pounds.  With 26  gallons of fuel on board and my weight of 180 pounds, what this means is I'm  only 44 pounds shy of gross weight flying solo.  It's my understanding that  the installed weight of the EA81 (at least the one sold by NSI which is what I  have) is about 240 pounds.  I don't know what the gross weight of the Model  3 is, but I'm guessing that the plane you're considering would not be capable of  flying with 2 people in it and more than a teacup of fuel.  It's probably  going to be nose-heavy also.  I had to add a 5-pound lead ballast to my  tail-wheel in order to get the nose up for a 3-point landing.  My advice,  for what it's worth, is to check the plane's weight and balance info to find out  its empty weight and also its center of gravity.  My preference, without  knowing more, would be to go with the Model IV/582.

  

 For what it's worth

 Clem Nichols

 [quote]   ---

msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 3:35 pm Post subject: Quest for knowledge-new kitfox fan

Think so. See http://www.greenskyadventures.com/bing/HACmanorder.htm



Frank Miles <f.miles.tcp.833(at)clearwire.net> wrote:  [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Frank Miles" 



Does anyone know if the 582 can be outfitted with an altitude-compensating

carburetor, Bing or otherwise?



Frank



--

cliffh(at)outdrs.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 7:12 pm Post subject: Quest for knowledge-new kitfox fan

My son had an Avid that had a 582 and we installed altitude compensating 

carbs.

They are available from Lockwood.



Floran H.

---

tc9008(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 5:59 am Post subject: Quest for knowledge-new kitfox fan

Yes it can . I put one on a 582 and it works well. I haven't had to change any jets or adjustments.

   Travis

   North Carolina 

    

  

 --

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