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Forward Access skin.

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tonyplane(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:11 am Post subject: Forward Access skin.

One thing I would highly recommend is making the  top forward skin removable.  With the skin removed you have really good  access to everything in the fwd area, not just wiring and instruments, but also  your rudder peddles, brakes, etc.  I have removal of the top skin required  for my annual conditional inspection, just to check the area and it also makes  easy removal of the rudder cable cover I installed over the rudder  cables.

  

 Like Mr. McFarland, I have removed the top skin at  least six times to do some work, inspection. add wiring, etc.

  

 I installed my top skin using #6 riv-nuts, loctited  before installation.  I use 6-32 SS screws to hold the skin  on.

 I know that nut-plates are ideal solution, but  I was just too lazy at the time.  So far they have worked great with no  problems.  Mr. McFarlands J-nuts is also a solution.

  

 I installed "rubber" tubing on the top skin aft  sharp edge.  You can slit the tubing and "glue" it to the  skin.

  I bought yellow tubing to match my yellow  paint job and it can be seen at http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/6-photo79.html.    NOTE:  If you have light paint, you should paint the "glare" shield area of  the top skin under the canopy.  I originally did not, but it was  distracting and have since painted it flat gray.  Tubing was procured a the  Lowes hardware store (aircraft parts dept of course).

 also used 1 inch pipe insulation material to cover  the aft top skin leading edge at the bow.  It is easy on the hand when  boarding the airplane.

  

 Tony Graziano

 601XL/Jab3300  N493TG 179 hrs

                     

       ------------------------------

        

        

       Re: Forward Skin        Access

        From:              LarryMcFarland (larry(at)macsmachine.com ([email]larry(at)macsmachine.com?subject=Re:%20Forward%20Skin%20Access&replyto=4574C6DC.4080005(at)macsmachine.com[/email]))        Date:              [b]Mon Dec 04 - 5:10        PM[/b]

  	  Quote: 	
		   	  Quote: 	
		  Juan,

You needn't use nut plates for such a panel.  J-nuts that work with 6-32 

screws can be used with considerable confidence.  They are much cheaper 

and don't let go.  I've got them on my removable forward top skin and 

I've had the top off probably a dozen times in two years and 85 hours of 

flying my 601.  On the leading edge overhanging the panel, I bent a 

piece of 1/2-inch aluminum tube and used a Dremel cutter to cut a slit 

on the edge and used 4 bent tabs to secure it with the same screws that 

hold the forward top skin.

It's a much easier job, as you use almost 90 screws, but very secure and 

the screws blend into the rivet heads.

	
	
   [quote][b]

tonyplane(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:34 pm Post subject: Forward Access skin.

 	  Quote: 	
		     One thing I would highly    recommend is making the top forward skin removable.  With the skin    removed you have really good access to everything in the fwd area, not just    wiring and instruments, but also to your rudder peddles, brakes, etc.  I    have the removal of the top skin required for my annual conditional    inspection, just to zone check the area and it also permits easier removal of    the rudder cable cover I installed over the rudder cables.

    

   Like Mr. McFarland, I have removed the top skin    at least six times to do some work, inspection. add wiring, etc.

    

   I installed my top skin using #6 riv-nuts,    loctite applied near the shank before installation.  I use 6-32 SS    screws to hold on the skin. I know that    nut-plates are ideal solution, but I was just too lazy at the time.     So far they have worked great with no problems.  Mr. McFarlands J-nuts is    also a solution.

    

   I installed "rubber" tubing on the top skin aft    sharp edge.  You can slit the tubing and "glue" it to the    skin.

   I bought yellow tubing to match my yellow paint    job and it can be seen at http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/6-photo79.html.      NOTE:  If you have light paint, you should paint the "glare" shield area    of the top skin under the canopy.  I originally did not, but it was    distracting and have since painted it flat gray.  Tubing was procured a    the Lowes hardware store (aircraft parts dept of course).

    

   I also used 1 inch dia water pipe insulation    material to cover the aft top skin leading edge at the bow.  It is easy    on the hand when boarding the airplane.

    

   Tony Graziano

   601XL/Jab3300  N493TG 179 hrs

   ----------------------------------------

                                Re: Forward Skin Access

            From:                  LarryMcFarland (larry(at)macsmachine.com ([email]larry(at)macsmachine.com?subject=Re:%20Forward%20Skin%20Access&replyto=4574C6DC.4080005(at)macsmachine.com[/email]))            Date:                  Mon Dec 04 - 5:10    PM

    

    	  Quote: 	
		   	  Quote: 	
		  Juan,

You needn't use nut plates for such a panel.  J-nuts that work with 6-32 

screws can be used with considerable confidence.  They are much cheaper 

and don't let go.  I've got them on my removable forward top skin and 

I've had the top off probably a dozen times in two years and 85 hours of 

flying my 601.  On the leading edge overhanging the panel, I bent a 

piece of 1/2-inch aluminum tube and used a Dremel cutter to cut a slit 

on the edge and used 4 bent tabs to secure it with the same screws that 

hold the forward top skin.

It's a much easier job, as you use almost 90 screws, but very secure and 

the screws blend into the rivet heads.

	
	
	
   [quote][b]

pmaxpmax(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 4:41 am Post subject: Forward Access skin.

I made my forward top skin removable also.  I used Riv-Nuts with locktite and many of them spun anyway, now I'm converting over to J-Nuts.  They can be found at McMaster-Carr ( http://www.mcmaster.com/ ).  Just type in "J Nuts" in the search engine.  Actually, I'm using "U STyle Nuts" but they are found with the same search.

  

 Having gone through all this, I doubt I would do it again.  It is just as easy to drill out the rivets in seconds and re-rivet when you're done.  I over-thought that one.



Phil Maxson

601XL/Corvair

Northwest New Jersey

  	  Quote: 	
		    From: tonyplane(at)bellsouth.net

Subject: Re: Forward Access skin.

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 10:05:33 -0600



      	  Quote: 	
		   One thing I would highly recommend is making the top forward skin removable.  

 <<SNIP>>

	
	
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dredmoody(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 7:50 am Post subject: Forward Access skin.

I'm not at that point yet Phil, so I may  have missed something obvious. If you elect to drill out rivets at service or  repair/maintenance times, you will reassemble with unpainted rivets. Speaking  only for myself, I would not look forward to touch-up painting on a herd of new  rivets anytime I wanted or needed to get under that forward top  skin.

  

 As an alternative, has anybody figured a  reasonably convenient way to make the just the instrument  panel detachable? With 12 - 18 inches of extra wire (bundled into  a single cable or at most two or three cables) and with the throttle, carb heat  and cabin heat disconnected, could one detach and displace (or even unplug and  disconnect) the panel? Would that weaken the side to side reinforcement of the  cockpit walls? 

  

 Bear in mind that(A) I'm not an  aeronautical engineer, (B) Ihave actually reached that point to experiment, so  (C) this is just thinking out loud to the list.

  

 So far, of all the options presented, I  like the idea of using the largest possible access hatches in the forward top  skin that do not extend past and under the canopy anywhere. What about using  both ideas...... a completely removable forward top skin with access  hatches in the area inside the canopy. That would make it less  likely (but still possible and convenient) to have to remove the entire  skin.

  

 I like this topic much better than  venting personal stuff. And hey, did you notice that I let very little sarcasm  sneak in?

  

 Ed Moody II

 Rayne, LA

 601XL/Jabiru/cabin area

  

 This one is worth archiving,  IMHO.

 [quote]   ---

NYTerminat(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 8:24 am Post subject: Forward Access skin.

That is what we did using the vibration mounts. Check the posts on whether  you need to mount the instruments on vibration dampers. I built the panel  in two sections, one for the instruments and one for the radio stack. They are  mounted to the original panel that has been cut out to accept the instrument and  radio cluster. When I need to replace or repair an instrument, I just remove the  4 cap nuts from the vibration dampers and remove that section of panel. I have a  whip under the panel so that I can pill out that section about 15  inches. 

  

 Bob Spudis

 N701ZX

 CH701/912S

  

  

 In a message dated 12/9/2006 10:51:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  dredmoody(at)cox.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     I'm not at that point yet Phil, so I    may have missed something obvious. If you elect to drill out rivets at service    or repair/maintenance times, you will reassemble with unpainted rivets.    Speaking only for myself, I would not look forward to touch-up painting on a    herd of new rivets anytime I wanted or needed to get under that forward top    skin.

    

   As an alternative, has anybody figured    a reasonably convenient way to make the just the instrument    panel detachable? With 12 - 18 inches of extra wire (bundled    into a single cable or at most two or three cables) and with the throttle,    carb heat and cabin heat disconnected, could one detach and displace (or even    unplug and disconnect) the panel? Would that weaken the side to side    reinforcement of the cockpit walls? 

	


 

  

  [quote][b]

daveaustin2(at)can.rogers
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:36 am Post subject: Forward Access skin.

I put the flight instruments on a secondary panel,  40 thou, with thin rubber washers to the main panel.  Then strengthened the  main panel with a 25 thou L piece across the bottom as a doubler.  So far I  haven't lost an instrument in 580 hrs.

 Dave Austin  601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk  VIII

     [quote][b]

p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 10:03 am Post subject: Forward Access skin.

Hi Ed,



 Along with the mentioned stuff, you need to do the plumbing for pitot/static air.  I suspect we both forgot something or other that connects to the instrument panel.



 With the removable panel or panel sections you need to include a whole bunch of extra wire and tubing.  That makes for a cluttered space and means you are carrying extra weight.



 I don't know if a completely removable top skin or access plates in that skin would be the better choice, but I think those choices seem a lot better than moveable instruments and controls on the instrument panel.



 Paul

 XL fuselage



 



  	  Quote: 	
		   

 As an alternative, has anybody figured a reasonably convenient way to make the just the instrument panel detachable? With 12 - 18 inches of extra wire (bundled into a single cable or at most two or three cables) and with the throttle, carb heat and cabin heat disconnected, could one detach and displace (or even unplug and disconnect) the panel? Would that weaken the side to side reinforcement of the cockpit walls? 

  	
 

 -    [quote][b]

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 1:19 pm Post subject: Forward Access skin.

I built my primary flight instruments (six-pack) into a removeable sub-panel. I just have the pitot-static lines and a few power cables for the gyros and panel lights, all with quick disconnects. I left just enough extra to slide the panel out and disconnect them. I put a sheet of .025 over the whole panel to stiffen it. I built the sub panel for my six-pack out of the material used in the wing jig.



On Dec 9, 2006, at 10:49 AM, Edward Moody II wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  As an alternative, has anybody figured a reasonably convenient way to make the just the instrument panel detachable? With 12 - 18 inches of extra wire (bundled into a single cable or at most two or three cables) and with the throttle, carb heat and cabin heat disconnected, could one detach and displace (or even unplug and disconnect) the panel? Would that weaken the side to side reinforcement of the cockpit walls?

 

	






 -- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL, 

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

 



 [quote][b]

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

davgray(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 1:43 pm Post subject: Forward Access skin.

I decided early that I did not want to  work thru a Keyhole.  To this end :

 [quote]   The entire forward top skin on my 601XL is    removable in about 5 minutes and 10 minutes to re attach.

   I used # 8 machine screws and #8 floating nut    plates with countersunk rivets.  This takes about 2 hours to set about    70-80 plates with a rivet squeezer.  I countersunk the top skin to    recieve the screws.  A cordless drill set at low torque works very well    to set and remove the top skin. 

   The Canopy is not removed when removing the    skin. 

   This was a terrific advantage for all of the    wiring, troubleshooting, and design changes, plus access to rudder pedals,    firewall piercings, and plumbing.

   It has been off at least 10 times during    construction.

    

   HOW I DID IT

   Need Rivet Squeezer, with 3/32 100 degree and #8    screw dimple dies.

   Drill pilot holes in top skin as though you will    use rivets.  These will become the center hole for the nutplates.     Use some forethought on rivet hole placement to be sure that a nutplate will    fit at that site. (between flange fluting)

   Use a full size nutplate without a floating    center hole as a drill guide while drilling the mounting holes.  This    insures that the mounting holes are centered and spaced properly.

    

   Remember the top skin has only a single dimpled    center hole.  The bulkhead flange beneath has a dimpled center hole and    two dimpled 3/32 rivet holes.

    

   Use full size nutplates that have    the dimpled mounting holes. (MS21059-L08K)

      Dimple the Top Skin Center hole and the lower    flange Center Hole with #8 screw dimple die & the squeezer.  The    bulkhead flange should not be dimpled as deeply as the top skin or it    will elevate the nutplate.

   Use the  3/32 dimple die for the rivet    holes in the flange portion only.



   Use AN426A-3-3 length soft rivets to mount the nutplates.     

   Pre-bend each nutplate slightly to fit the    curvature of the bulkhead.

   Draw up each nutplate tightly with a temporary    center screw prior to setting the side mounting rivets with the rivet    squeezer.

   Remove the restraining center screw and move on    to the next.

    

   You may need a few floating clip nuts to    attach the top skin in the region of the longerons (FCN832-43) and matching    pan head machine screws so you don't have to dimple your longerons.     (avoid a possible structural problem)

    

   If you want a more subtle appearance it would    probably work as well with # 6 machine screws for the entire    project.

    

   I found everything at Wicks.  I am pleased    with the outcome.

   I had a couple less than perfect nutplates    that needed to be remounted but that was easy to remedy.

    

   Gary Ray

    

    

[b]

dredmoody(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 6:08 pm Post subject: Forward Access skin.

Thanks for all the replies and ideas on removeable  panel sections and forward top skins. I still have some time left to cook all  your ideas down into a final decision. This is how the list is supposed to  work.... let's keep that going.

  

 Thanks again,

  

 Ed

  

 Do Not Archive

   [quote][b]

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