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bcondrey

Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 580

Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:30 pm Post subject: Annunciator Panel Update?

Anybody got an update on the potential annunciator panel that was being discussed several months ago?



Thanks



Bob

nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:50 am Post subject: Annunciator Panel Update?

At 05:30 PM 12/13/2006 -0800, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

<bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com>



Anybody got an update on the potential annunciator panel that was being 

discussed several months ago?



Thanks



Bob


	


    That topic was one of several being massaged around

    plates of tacos at the el Mexico cafe but it seems

    to have died out. None of the pepper-heads present

    has demonstrated an interest in stepping up to the

    project.



    Bob . . .



      ---------------------------------------------------------

      < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >

      < the authority which determines whether there can be   >

      < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of   >

      < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests     >

      < with experiment.                                      >

      <                            --Lawrence M. Krauss       >

      ---------------------------------------------------------

aadamson(at)highrf.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:27 am Post subject: Annunciator Panel Update?

Well, I'll throw my hat in the ring as at least a paper designer.



I've been toying with a simple microprocessor based application that could

take either active hi, or active low, and maybe alternating types of inputs.

It could then generate either active hi, or active low, or flashing outputs,

along with an associated audio notification event.  This would all be

configurable from a simple serial port based device and some windows or

other software.  It would obviously support a "test" mode and would be

configurable for audio volume.  Second generation would allow recorded voice

instead of simple tones.  Most likely, I'd center it around low power

incandescent or LED annunciation lights.  



Because IO on micros *isnt* unlimited, perhaps looking at 8 gazintas, and 8

gazoutas as a start.  Power would be 9-32v and regulated on the board.  I'd

look for something the size of a pack of gum or maybe just a smidge large to

stay in thru hole parts and allow it to be available in Kit form.



Would there be much interest in the above?  I'm most likely going to do the

Honeywell type lights, which are LED based and has been what is driving my

desire for the above.



Alan



--

sportav8r(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 10:05 am Post subject: Annunciator Panel Update?

Put me down as interested in one, Alan.



Bill B.  re-doing RV panel for glass/IFR this spring



On 12/14/06, Alan K. Adamson <aadamson(at)highrf.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Well, I'll throw my hat in the ring as at least a paper designer.



 I've been toying with a simple microprocessor based application that could

 take either active hi, or active low, and maybe alternating types of inputs.

 It could then generate either active hi, or active low, or flashing outputs,

 along with an associated audio notification event.  This would all be

 configurable from a simple serial port based device and some windows or

 other software.  It would obviously support a "test" mode and would be

 configurable for audio volume.  Second generation would allow recorded voice

 instead of simple tones.  Most likely, I'd center it around low power

 incandescent or LED annunciation lights.



 Because IO on micros *isnt* unlimited, perhaps looking at 8 gazintas, and 8

 gazoutas as a start.  Power would be 9-32v and regulated on the board.  I'd

 look for something the size of a pack of gum or maybe just a smidge large to

 stay in thru hole parts and allow it to be available in Kit form.



 Would there be much interest in the above?  I'm most likely going to do the

 Honeywell type lights, which are LED based and has been what is driving my

 desire for the above.



 Alan

trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 10:44 am Post subject: Annunciator Panel Update?

Allan



Looks very good to me. (Although I don't have the slightest idea what 

"gazintas" and "gazoutas" are!?)

I'd be interested.



Carlos

---

cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:01 am Post subject: Annunciator Panel Update?

Carlos Trigo wrote...



Allan



Looks very good to me. (Although I don't have the slightest idea what 

"gazintas" and "gazoutas" are!?)

I'd be interested.



Carlos



Think of it as a batch of bad food from Taco Bell.  The food "gazintas"

and a few hours later, the food "gazoutas", though I suspect Alan was

referencing electrons and not e coli.



Chuck

Do Not Archive

aadamson(at)highrf.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:26 am Post subject: Annunciator Panel Update?

Inputs and outputs ... 



Alan - wow, based upon all the comments (directly) to me, I guess you guys

might motivate me to do this.... Now to see if I can con a friend into doing

the firmware.... I am after all trying to finish my airplane too... 



--

rtitsworth

Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 76
Location: Detroit, Mi

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:25 pm Post subject: Annunciator Panel Update?

Alan,



It would also be nice if the audio output could be manually muted (i.e.

until the input conditions was fixed at which point it would auto re-arm)

unless/until another input generated a second warning which would trigger a

subsequent audio signal.  This is better than shutting off the audio as you

could forget to turn it back on/up.



It would also be nice to have the visual intensity dimmable (perhaps

external to the board) as it would be nice to have the annunciations "very"

bright during the day, but not blinding at night.



If it were LED based, it would be nice to be able to configure/switch the

LED colors (red, yellow, green, etc) during assembly.



Some thoughts on the test function/circuit...  

1) It could be designed to only test the lights by suppling power directly

to the lights (bypassing the processor) - simple and software independent

but a rather weak "test".

2) It could be designed into the processor/code (ie. a manually activated

"all on" mode).

3) It could be designed to be a circuit "in-front" of the processor (i.e.

pulling all selected inputs high or low - thereby testing the

processor/coding as well) which is the most complex.



If option #2 (above) it might be nice if the "test" were automatically

performed at startup such that all the lights would initially come on

automatically and then hitting the test (or mute) button would extinguish

them.  Thereafter, you would hold the momentary "test" button to test again.

Perhaps "holding" the mute button (>1 sec) would function as the test button

(saving a button).



Of course, following a "test" event, any prior illuminated warnings should

still be illuminated.



.02

Rick

--

nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:50 pm Post subject: Annunciator Panel Update?

At 12:26 PM 12/14/2006 -0500, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

<aadamson(at)highrf.com>



Well, I'll throw my hat in the ring as at least a paper designer.




	


  <snip>



 	  Quote: 	
		  Would there be much interest in the above?  I'm most likely going to do the

Honeywell type lights, which are LED based and has been what is driving my

desire for the above.



Alan


	


    Alan,



    If I may be of assistance in helping configure I/O, designing

    with DO-160 friendly techniques, helping with packaging, I'd

    be pleased to help.



    Bob . . .,

cberland(at)systems3.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 2:42 pm Post subject: Annunciator Panel Update?

Aerotronics out of Billings Montana has something very similar to your

current discussions.  May be worth contacting them.

http://www.aerotronics.com/



Craig Berland



 	  Quote: 	
		  Well, I'll throw my hat in the ring as at least a paper designer.




	


  <snip>



 	  Quote: 	
		  Would there be much interest in the above?  I'm most likely going to do


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  the Honeywell type lights, which are LED based and has been what is 

driving my desire for the above.



Alan


	


    Alan,



    If I may be of assistance in helping configure I/O, designing

    with DO-160 friendly techniques, helping with packaging, I'd

    be pleased to help.



    Bob . . .,

aadamson(at)highrf.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 7:39 pm Post subject: Annunciator Panel Update?

Ok, I've been doing a bit more thinking about this widget.... I'm really

trying to avoid designing the kitchen sink into it, and also I don't want

the complexity of multiple modules that all have to be interfaced.



I'm applying the KISS principle if at all possible.



I've nailed down a feature list a bit further.  This is just major features

and is broken out by Hardware, and Hardware/Software.  I've also included a

"future additions" section to keep those in perspective.



*If* we were to do a little virtual design here.  Maybe we could nail down a

final V1 feature set, work up a prospective component list.  From there we

could scratch out a schematic and then obviously, we could get some

prototypes done and build a couple and see how they work.



Single sided, or at the most double sided would be preferred.  Concerns that

we'll have to watch for is RFI/EMI and how to keep that to a minimum.

Hardening this device should not be in the cards just yet, unless that can

be done easily.



At this point, we should work to a prototype.



Ok, so here's my feature list.  Feel free to comment on it and if there are

questions, let me know.  One note, this should be designed to work in both

metal and composite airplanes (that means we'll have to make sure grounding

is available and adequate.



Since the original round, I did think of a couple of nice to haves.



Rick's ideas muting and was a good one, that lead me to thing about

priorities and overrides.  These can be handled in software.



Dimming was another good idea and the inclusion of some PWM for driving

led's etc.  (we'll really have to watch EMI/RFI from those!)



This should be designed with PC tools that the average joe can afford if we

are to work in a collaborative environment with and around this.



So, what do ya think?



Hardware

a) 8 control inputs (can be active hi, active lo, or strobed)

b) 8 control outputs (can be active hi, active lo, or strobed)

c) microprocessor control

d) flash memory (perhaps processor embedded)

e) serial port output (output strings for external usage - e.g. Engine

monitor display, EFIS display, etc)

f) serial port input (command processor for configuration, s/w upload, etc)

g) 8 low level audio inputs

h) 3 low level audio outputs

i) audio tone generator

j) 9-32v DC power supply



Hardware/Software

a) test circuitry (lights, processor, logic, etc)

b) smart mute circuitry (mute until remedy, then re-arm, etc)

c) smart dimming circuitry (PWM for LEDs, ambient light sensor, for auto

adjust, etc)

d) event priorities for both control outputs and audio outputs (can be

linked or combined via configuration)

e) queued events with queue clearing logic (would need to integrate with

event priorities)





Future additions

a) recorded or recordable voice messages in place of tone generated sounds

b) ethernet or some other form of faster interface technology 



Obviously, the number of inputs and outputs (gazintas and gazoutas) are

arbitrary, but 8 is a nice micro number 



Alan - wanna be designer at large ;>



--

N1DeltaWhiskey(at)comcast
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:37 pm Post subject: Annunciator Panel Update?

Alan,



Thanks for looking into this a bit further.  I have been trying to locate a 

row of enunciators to let me know when some defined parameter is out of 

normal/desired ranges (row of idiot lights if you will, with some additional 

features such as audio alert via the headphones.  After reading over your 

list, not sure how KISS your proposal is, but will leave that conversation 

to those that might have a better idea of what they are talking about.  I am 

not sure what all the "features" do, or are supposed to do, or how I would 

use them.



I am wondering, though, if dimming wouldn't be better performed by simple 

light sensitive resistive circuitry (could be paralleled with user 

adjustable) rather than PWM.  I am assuming that the enunciator panel is for 

the purpose of displaying fault/attention needed events and would not be lit 

continuously (not sure what I would want continuously lit on such a panel). 

If true, then it is doubtful that any meaningful power savings could be had 

by going to the complication of PWM.



Just some thoughts.  Hope you can produce a well engineered design/product 

(e.g., competitive costs are factored in).



Regards,



Doug Windhorn



---

nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 6:04 am Post subject: Annunciator Panel Update?

At 10:36 PM 12/15/2006 -0500, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

<aadamson(at)highrf.com>



Ok, I've been doing a bit more thinking about this widget.... I'm really

trying to avoid designing the kitchen sink into it, and also I don't want

the complexity of multiple modules that all have to be interfaced.



I'm applying the KISS principle if at all possible.



I've nailed down a feature list a bit further.  This is just major features

and is broken out by Hardware, and Hardware/Software.  I've also included a

"future additions" section to keep those in perspective.



*If* we were to do a little virtual design here.  Maybe we could nail down a

final V1 feature set, work up a prospective component list.  From there we

could scratch out a schematic and then obviously, we could get some

prototypes done and build a couple and see how they work.



Single sided, or at the most double sided would be preferred.  Concerns that

we'll have to watch for is RFI/EMI and how to keep that to a minimum.


	


     Emissions from microcontrollers in this application is nil. Aperture

     areas are so tiny as to make radiation insignificant. I/O artchitecures

     for minimizing external influences (your COMM and Transponder 

transmitters)

     is also easy.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Hardening this device should not be in the cards just yet, unless that can

be done easily.


	


    Single sided is virtually impossible with contemporary components

    due to pin-out density and the dearth of thru-hole parts in small

    footprints. Go to ExpressPCB.com for their free ECB layout software

    and fast-turn, low-cost prototyping services. Their software will

    support double sided, plated thru holes + up to two intermediate

    planes that can be used for Vcc and Gnd.

 	  Quote: 	
		  At this point, we should work to a prototype.



Ok, so here's my feature list.  Feel free to comment on it and if there are

questions, let me know.  One note, this should be designed to work in both

metal and composite airplanes (that means we'll have to make sure grounding

is available and adequate.



Since the original round, I did think of a couple of nice to haves.



Rick's ideas muting and was a good one, that lead me to thing about

priorities and overrides.  These can be handled in software.



Dimming was another good idea and the inclusion of some PWM for driving

led's etc.  (we'll really have to watch EMI/RFI from those!)



This should be designed with PC tools that the average joe can afford if we

are to work in a collaborative environment with and around this.



So, what do ya think?



Hardware

a) 8 control inputs (can be active hi, active lo, or strobed)

b) 8 control outputs (can be active hi, active lo, or strobed)

c) microprocessor control


	


    There are many fine processors offered. My personal choices

    for new projects tend to check out the PIC series devices

    first. LOTS of low cost development tools and a large contingent

    of open source, open ideas users groups.



 	  Quote: 	
		  d) flash memory (perhaps processor embedded)

e) serial port output (output strings for external usage - e.g. Engine

monitor display, EFIS display, etc)

f) serial port input (command processor for configuration, s/w upload, etc)


	


    All of the Flash PICs can be programmed in place on the

    product.



 	  Quote: 	
		  g) 8 low level audio inputs

h) 3 low level audio outputs

i) audio tone generator

j) 9-32v DC power supply


	




 	  Quote: 	
		  Hardware/Software

a) test circuitry (lights, processor, logic, etc)

b) smart mute circuitry (mute until remedy, then re-arm, etc)

c) smart dimming circuitry (PWM for LEDs, ambient light sensor, for auto

adjust, etc)

d) event priorities for both control outputs and audio outputs (can be

linked or combined via configuration)

e) queued events with queue clearing logic (would need to integrate with

event priorities)


	


    years ago I used a lot of 3 x 5 recipe cards not unlike note

    cards for a research project to organize a project like this.

    One stack of cards for features (market driven)

    One stack for design requirements

    One stack for organizing program flow



    Nowadays, one could use PowerPoint in the same manner with

    the advantage of being able to share the document with others

    via the 'net. In any case, the ability to massage individual details

    and then rank them for orders of importance and or program flow

    is important.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Future additions

a) recorded or recordable voice messages in place of tone generated sounds

b) ethernet or some other form of faster interface technology



Obviously, the number of inputs and outputs (gazintas and gazoutas) are

arbitrary, but 8 is a nice micro number 


	


    This number is irrelevant right now . . . figure out which

    features will be watched (market and flight-safety drives

    this thinking) first. The size of the hardware is about the

    last decision to be made before you start laying out the ECB.

 	  Quote: 	
		  Alan,



It would also be nice if the audio output could be manually muted (i.e.

until the input conditions was fixed at which point it would auto re-arm)

unless/until another input generated a second warning which would trigger a

subsequent audio signal.  This is better than shutting off the audio as you

could forget to turn it back on/up.


	


    Yup, master caution warning systems often include a mute/stop-flashes

    button that will cause the system to stop being a distraction . . . but

    the tones/flashing comes back after some period of time . . . unless

    the condition clears.

 	  Quote: 	
		  It would also be nice to have the visual intensity dimmable (perhaps

external to the board) as it would be nice to have the annunciations "very"

bright during the day, but not blinding at night.



If it were LED based, it would be nice to be able to configure/switch the

LED colors (red, yellow, green, etc) during assembly.


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  Some thoughts on the test function/circuit...

1) It could be designed to only test the lights by suppling power directly

to the lights (bypassing the processor) - simple and software independent

but a rather weak "test".


	


    LED reliability is so high that press-to-test of lamps is

    not very useful. Better to have a test feature in the processor

    that does some nice hat-dance with the lights on demand. Pressing

    buttons to "test" things should encompass as MUCH of the system's

    hardware as possible. The act of simply testing light bulbs is not

    very reassuring.



 	  Quote: 	
		  2) It could be designed into the processor/code (ie. a manually activated

"all on" mode).

3) It could be designed to be a circuit "in-front" of the processor (i.e.

pulling all selected inputs high or low - thereby testing the

processor/coding as well) which is the most complex.



If option #2 (above) it might be nice if the "test" were automatically

performed at startup such that all the lights would initially come on

automatically and then hitting the test (or mute) button would extinguish

them.  Thereafter, you would hold the momentary "test" button to test again.

Perhaps "holding" the mute button (>1 sec) would function as the test button

(saving a button).


	


    Yup.



    Get your PP "note cards" started. Your discussion is already

    too large and detailed to let you put your arms around it with

    threaded e-mails.



    Bob . . .

aadamson(at)highrf.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 9:27 am Post subject: Annunciator Panel Update?

Doug,



Thanks for the comments.  Yes, you are correct in your assumptions.  One

note about PWM.  I'm not hooked on it, as it's a huge EMI/RFI generator.

However LED's don't dim very well with just voltage reductions similar to

what a dimmer would do.  They dim more easily with pulses.  I'm also not

trying to clone dimmer functionality.  When dimming makes sense to be

generated in software, specific to the output (idiot light functions), then

we'll look at it.



Thanks for the comments.  Yes, I too haven't not found an annunciator panel

driver that meets my needs.  Hence my interest in designing one .



Alan 



--

Mark Phillips in TN

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 431
Location: Columbia, TN

Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 9:26 pm Post subject: Annunciator Panel Update?

In a message dated 12/15/2006 9:41:58 PM Central Standard Time, aadamson(at)highrf.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Ok, I've been doing a bit more thinking about this widget.... I'm really

trying to avoid designing the kitchen sink into it, and also I don't want

the complexity of multiple modules that all have to be interfaced. 	


 >>>>

  

 Hi Alan- not sure how useful this might be, but here's what I did on my RV- works pretty good, but not very fancy- might give you a useful idea or two...

  

 http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=5126

  

 There are 5 additional entries including the wiring diagram (available in ACAD) seen by clicking >>Next entry>> at top of pages.  Fotos get bigger by clicking on them.

 

Thanks again to Expercraft for the great website resource!

  

 From The PossumWorks in TN

 Mark Phillips

  [quote][b]

_________________
From The PossumWorks...

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