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Cabin cover fit pictures

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owl40188(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:18 am Post subject: Cabin cover fit pictures

For those interested I have attached some Cabin Cover fit pictures.

  

 Do not archive

  

 Niko

 40188

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cloudvalley(at)comcast.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 8:42 am Post subject: Cabin cover fit pictures

Hello Niko,

 My wife and I have just finished building our empennage kit; we have not ordered the rest of  the kit yet. We are interested in the canopy/cowl discussions. Are these pictures you have of the fiberglass canopy? We are not sure what will transpire with Van's QC on theirs, or if you or someone will come up with something else. ( read your post about graphite). We are really naiive about this whole process, and are hoping this canopy/cowl problem will be resolved by the time we buy the rest of the kit. Thanks for your input.

 Brian and Ruth Preston

 #40666

  

  	  Quote: 	
		  -------------- Original message -------------- 

From: Niko <owl40188(at)yahoo.com> 

    For those interested I have attached some Cabin Cover fit pictures.

  

 Do not archive

  

 Niko

 40188

millstees(at)ameritech.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 9:06 am Post subject: Cabin cover fit pictures

I have  been following the thread about the quality of the canopy with some  consternation;

  

 1.  Graphite is currently in very short supply, and consequently the  price is unreasonably high, if you can even locate it.  The likelyhood of  finding enough to build even one canopy is problematic.  The outlook is not  much better, because Boeing is grabbing up everything on the  market.

  

 2.  I built a glass airplane a few years ago, and compared to the  quality I got on that kit, the Van's canopy is excellent.  Fiberglass  requires shaping, and lots of surface preparation.  To expect a bolt on  fiberglass part is unrealistic, and contrary to the whole idea of kit  building.

  

  

Steve Mills

RV-10 40486 Slow-build

Naperville, Illinois

finishing fuselage

Do Not  Archive



 [quote]   --

mritter509(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 9:43 am Post subject: Cabin cover fit pictures

Steve,



Have you received your canopy?





[quote]From: <millstees(at)ameritech.net>

Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: RE: Cabin cover fit pictures

Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 11:05:09 -0600



I have been following the thread about the quality of the canopy with some

consternation;



1.  Graphite is currently in very short supply, and consequently the price

is unreasonably high, if you can even locate it.  The likelyhood of finding

enough to build even one canopy is problematic.  The outlook is not much

better, because Boeing is grabbing up everything on the market.



2.  I built a glass airplane a few years ago, and compared to the quality I

got on that kit, the Van's canopy is excellent.  Fiberglass requires

shaping, and lots of surface preparation.  To expect a bolt on fiberglass

part is unrealistic, and contrary to the whole idea of kit building.



Steve Mills

RV-10 40486 Slow-build

Naperville, Illinois

finishing fuselage

Do Not Archive

   --

owl40188(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:35 am Post subject: Cabin cover fit pictures

As one can see from the pictures I am well into making Vans cowl fit and I am not planning on a graphite cover.  I have about 30 hrs into sanding and fitting it and there are many hours left before its done although given the build times that some people have quoted I consider myself a slow builder.  What makes it inconvenient for me is that two people are needed to fit the Cover.  So I can't just sand a bit and then fit it take it off resand refit etc.  Each time I try to fit it I need a helper.  I have probably trial fit it about 8 to 10 times now.  By the way, as a data point on the high end I have 2100 hrs into this kit now and I believe it will take somewhere in the 3000 to 3500 hrs to complete.

  

   The difficult part about making a graphite one would be making the tool. I haven't looked at getting graphite at all but most aircraft manufacturers purchase the high end of the graphite fibers with the medium and low strength ones being sold for things such as skiis, tennis racquets, golf clubs etc.   I believe the fiber that doesn't meet the specs of the airframe manufacturers is sold as lower grade.  The supply for the high end fibers might be tight and at the same time the supply of the medium to low end fiber might be plentifull.  Don't really know though maybe someone else can chime in here.

  

 Niko

 40188

 Slow-build kit &  builder

 ---

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:39 am Post subject: Cabin cover fit pictures

I appreciate Steve's contrarian view and consternation.  A balance in intelligent conversation is a good thing.  So was the comment on corrosion.



Each may be found to be baseless but is heartfelt and therefore worth reading.  Toray is the supplier, the shortage is only when buying hundreds of bolts of production for commercial airliner manufacture (we use the stuff at work every day)and only momentary in time as to supply shortages.  It is not holding up Boeing sales one iota.



The world of plastic planes has come a long way from Styrofoam glued slabs, hotwire and paper cup mixing process in darkened garages.  The White Knight was a great example. The heavens are now our limit. Fitment and finish is a matter of mold building, quality control and where the labor is applied.  I feel many would like to take advantage of the QB concept on labor application, just like doing repetitive rivets on the umpteenth wing rib.  The marketplace will sort out each person's place.  The 51% rule should insure that each builder has the knowledge and skill set to maintain the safety and airworthiness of their kit.



I respectfully conclude Steve that if VANS canopy is of higher quality than your workmanship on your last aircraft, we are talking totally of different issues.  Integrated roll bars, air distribution plenum with overhead lights and switches, fitment to within 0.010", improved placement and adhesion of windows, advanced door hinges and lockable latch assemblies are the improvements being considered. Oh yes, don't let me forget the work Dave McNeill did on improved shoulder harness mount points. Did I mention dozens of hours not washing off fiberglass dust from your arms and purging your respiratory system to catch a breath.



Carbon fiber is superior for antenna ground planes and static dissipation. The wingtips would likely remain fiberglass for antennae concealment. A simple tape of fiberglass impregnated resin has resolved the contact between dissimilar materials on the nobility table for performance military aircraft for years. I am confident that corrosion is not going to be an issue. The product will not be for everyone. Nor is it intended to be. There may be some who would actually like to build their own mold and lay it up.  To each their own product.



I suspect Mark's question was answered within your response.



John Cox

#40600

--

james.k.hovis(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:38 am Post subject: Cabin cover fit pictures

John,

    Good comments. I have a question related to this discussion, how

"conforming" is the Van's design to the crashworthiness requirements

of FAR part 23 as they relate to roll-overs in a crash? Looking at

these pictures, I really wonder how well the cabin top will hold up in

a roll over. Carbon-epoxy (even the low grade stuff) is tons stronger

and more impact resistant than glass-epoxy matrix. Van's takes pride

in pointing out they design to part 23 requirements and show static

testing of a wing as proof. Note: Part 23 roll over requiremetns after

inverting on the ground are 3.0 g vertical load with a .5 cof of

friction sliding load (23.561) after surviving a 9.0 g longitudinal

crash impact. This means the top (VT contacting ground) has to

withstand 8,100 # of vertical load while also withstanding 4,050# of

sliding interial load in the forward direction. Seems a couple peices

of steel tubing or a few layers of carbon epoxy placed in strategic

positions would greatly enhance crash strength.

   Carbon fiber and fiberglass lay-up is essentially the same, both

require a mold. Unless the latest automated carbon fiber layup robots

are used, I don't think you'll see any better quality (where the cabin

top meets the aluminum structure) that you are seeing today with a

hand-layup process regardless whether carbon or fiberglass is used.

Remember, you are fitting an item that has a certain level of process

and dimensional control to items that are made by different processes.

Aluminum forming processes (i.e. drop hammer die, hyrdoforming on form

blocks, or brake forming) is capable of holding tighter profile

tolerances than most hand layup composites. This is why you'll see

mismatches and such between the cabin top and the Al strucutre and

will need to do some hand fitting.

On 1/16/07, John W. Cox <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com> wrote:

[quote] 



 I appreciate Steve's contrarian view and consternation.  A balance in

 intelligent conversation is a good thing.  So was the comment on corrosion.



 Each may be found to be baseless but is heartfelt and therefore worth

 reading.  Toray is the supplier, the shortage is only when buying hundreds

 of bolts of production for commercial airliner manufacture (we use the stuff

 at work every day)and only momentary in time as to supply shortages.  It is

 not holding up Boeing sales one iota.



 The world of plastic planes has come a long way from Styrofoam glued slabs,

 hotwire and paper cup mixing process in darkened garages.  The White Knight

 was a great example. The heavens are now our limit. Fitment and finish is a

 matter of mold building, quality control and where the labor is applied.  I

 feel many would like to take advantage of the QB concept on labor

 application, just like doing repetitive rivets on the umpteenth wing rib.

 The marketplace will sort out each person's place.  The 51% rule should

 insure that each builder has the knowledge and skill set to maintain the

 safety and airworthiness of their kit.



 I respectfully conclude Steve that if VANS canopy is of higher quality than

 your workmanship on your last aircraft, we are talking totally of different

 issues.  Integrated roll bars, air distribution plenum with overhead lights

 and switches, fitment to within 0.010", improved placement and adhesion of

 windows, advanced door hinges and lockable latch assemblies are the

 improvements being considered. Oh yes, don't let me forget the work Dave

 McNeill did on improved shoulder harness mount points. Did I mention dozens

 of hours not washing off fiberglass dust from your arms and purging your

 respiratory system to catch a breath.



 Carbon fiber is superior for antenna ground planes and static dissipation.

 The wingtips would likely remain fiberglass for antennae concealment. A

 simple tape of fiberglass impregnated resin has resolved the contact between

 dissimilar materials on the nobility table for performance military aircraft

 for years. I am confident that corrosion is not going to be an issue. The

 product will not be for everyone. Nor is it intended to be. There may be

 some who would actually like to build their own mold and lay it up.  To each

 their own product.



 I suspect Mark's question was answered within your response.



 John Cox

 #40600

 --

indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:14 pm Post subject: Cabin cover fit pictures

I would think that Boeing would be soaking up all the pre preg material and 

not the hand layup stuff.



As a side note, I wonder if Van's used one of their 10s to make the tool for 

our parts. When I visited Van's in the beginning 06, I took photos of both 

10s and as I remember, at least one of them did not have finish work on it 

that was of good enough quality to pull a mold from so it must be that the 

mold was made from the original mockup and that was what was used to 

fabricate the tops for both of their 10s and probably our tops.



IMO the best way to make a good mold would be to pull a mold off a perfectly 

blended, perfectly finished 10 with the doors and everything in place. Mark 

the seem lines between the window, doors and fiberglass/aluminum interfaces 

and then later mark the molds on the outside of these scribe lines to give 

the builders a little wiggle room.



Again, some of the observations some buiders are finding are QC issues, but 

some of the fit issues might not only be an issue of original tools shape 

producing a questionable mold, but there are shrinkage issues with the part, 

and also variances between each builders fuselage(Longeron shape).



It is damm amazing that all this stuff goes together aswell as it does. I 

understand that even LanceAir's prepreg parts need a lot of tweeking to get 

them together.



Unlike Lance Air, the glider manufacturers don't pull parts out of molds 

until the part has been closed up. Top and bottom of wing, right and left 

halves of fuselage, etc. The molds are indexed so they fit together with the 

parts inside them and then they are glued and left inplace for some time to 

fully cure.



I too am not looking forward to fitting my top and then the doors.  I should 

be starting soon.



For those looking for a better solution, there may never be one so maybe 

just count on putting in the time and anticipate sore shoulders, elbows and 

hands. Itchy skin is fun too.



John G. 409.



[quote]From: <millstees(at)ameritech.net>

Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: RE: Cabin cover fit pictures

Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 11:05:09 -0600



I have been following the thread about the quality of the canopy with some

consternation;



1.  Graphite is currently in very short supply, and consequently the price

is unreasonably high, if you can even locate it.  The likelyhood of finding

enough to build even one canopy is problematic.  The outlook is not much

better, because Boeing is grabbing up everything on the market.



2.  I built a glass airplane a few years ago, and compared to the quality I

got on that kit, the Van's canopy is excellent.  Fiberglass requires

shaping, and lots of surface preparation.  To expect a bolt on fiberglass

part is unrealistic, and contrary to the whole idea of kit building.



Steve Mills

RV-10 40486 Slow-build

Naperville, Illinois

finishing fuselage

Do Not Archive

   --

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:51 pm Post subject: Cabin cover fit pictures

I am confident (without any knowledge to the contrary) that VANS initial

testing of N410RV met the requirements of FAA FSDO NM-09 and the Seattle

MIDO. I have no such quantitative information on N220RV or the

replacement canopy for N410RV after the door issue. Same individuals who

will approve the replacement unit made of carbon fiber of improved

strength, conductivity and lighter weight here in Orygun.  Less weight

on top, more room for heavies like me or enhanced and remotely mounted

avionics.  I would wager that most completed riveted aluminum fuselage

and empennage kits are pretty darn close on exactly same dimensions.  I

would further state that from canopy to canopy they are a WAG different.



Having seen the clear difference by a part made of equal strength of MT

fiberglass and that of Company X carbon they are dimensionally thickness

and weight, light years dissimilar.



A careful review of a side view on most finished RV-10s will find a

distinct break at the transition between the fiberglass matrix and the

top of the empennage.  Proper use of flox, fiber or stress transferring

threads will assist in the needed transition.



John Cox

the Turbanator #40600

--

Rick S.

Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 347
Location: Las Vegas

Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:12 pm Post subject: Cabin cover fit pictures

I think Steve is right on regarding quality,



Having sat back and watched all the cabin cover bashing for the last few days it seems everyone has different perceptions of quality....yes the interior has veins that need sanding...sand them off, learn a new skill called body work and move on to the next step. I didn't care for working on my top but (read itch and dust)...it's a part of the build so in order to fly this thing you have to get past it. 



It's not like anyone tried to hide the fact there are substantial composite parts on the RV-10. I didn't open my fuselage kit and say HEY!!! what's this big green thing!! If this is your first time working with fiberglass, let me tell you, it sucks. If you REALLY like it, you might have a nice selection of whips, chains and handcuffs in your closet!!   But it ain't that bad.



It wasn't my first time working with composites so no surprises here. FWIW the top is very smooth and typical of the finish I've seen on raw glass work on race cars and boats. Yes the bagged side is rough, not sure it could be much better considering size and shape. It's the nature of the beast. Pinholes are a fact of life in glass parts. Cirrus will sell you a nicely finished fiberglass cabin top but then you'lll miss out on all the education you will receive performing your own body work pluis saving more than a hundred thousand dollars as well.



Rick S.

40185

do not archive

_________________
Rick S.
RV-10
40185

CJohnston(at)popsound.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:45 pm Post subject: Cabin cover fit pictures

I think I may have started this rough canopy discussion, and I'll go

ahead and say that I just went ahead and made it fit.  I got messy.  I

put it on there and took it off quite a few times.  It fits.  I'll make

it smooth, and it'll be neato.  It's my first time working with glass,

but metalworking tools make quick work of it.  It also makes quick work

of my metalworking tools   Initially, I was worried about strength,

but after I got it fitted, it seems that like everything else on the

aircraft, once it's connected to the surrounding structure, it's pretty

tough.  I've been having fun pretending that I'm coming in from a

blizzard when I'm done with a cutting session.  Covered in "snow".  Yay.



cj

#40410

fuse

www.perfectlygoodairplane.net

do not archive



--

mritter509(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:20 pm Post subject: Cabin cover fit pictures

Well I'm well past it and the canopy came out looking great - but could have 

done with a little less education on fiberglass work.



Mark (N410MR Flying)





 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Rick <ricksked(at)earthlink.net>

Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Cabin cover fit pictures

Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 13:12:13 -0800 (GMT-08:00)






I think Steve is right on regarding quality,



Having sat back and watched all the cabin cover bashing for the last few 

days it seems everyone has different perceptions of quality....yes the 

interior has veins that need sanding...sand them off, learn a new skill 

called body work and move on to the next step. I didn't care for working on 

my top but (read itch and dust)...it's a part of the build so in order to 

fly this thing you have to get past it.



It's not like anyone tried to hide the fact there are substantial composite 

parts on the RV-10. I didn't open my fuselage kit and say HEY!!! what's 

this big green thing!! If this is your first time working with fiberglass, 

let me tell you, it sucks. If you REALLY like it, you might have a nice 

selection of whips, chains and handcuffs in your closet!!   But it ain't 

that bad.



It wasn't my first time working with composites so no surprises here. FWIW 

the top is very smooth and typical of the finish I've seen on raw glass 

work on race cars and boats. Yes the bagged side is rough, not sure it 

could be much better considering size and shape. It's the nature of the 

beast. Pinholes are a fact of life in glass parts. Cirrus will sell you a 

nicely finished fiberglass cabin top but then you'lll miss out on all the 

education you will receive performing your own body work pluis saving more 

than a hundred thousand dollars as well.



Rick S.

40185

do not archive




	


_________________________________________________________________

 	  Quote: 	
		  From photos to predictions, The MSN Entertainment Guide to Golden Globes has 

it all. http://tv.msn.com/tv/globes2007/?icid=nctagline1

millstees(at)ameritech.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:30 pm Post subject: Cabin cover fit pictures

Mark:



Yes I have received my canopy, and will begin installing it in about a

month.



Steve Mills

RV-10 40486 Slow-build

Naperville, Illinois

finishing fuselage N750SM (reserved)

Do Not Archive

--

mritter509(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:04 pm Post subject: Cabin cover fit pictures

Steve,



Installing the canopy, doors and windows take some time (fitting, sanding, 

fitting, sanding and more fitting and sanding) but the end product (a flying 

RV-10) is more than worth the effort.  The nice thing about fiberglass as 

opposed to aluminum is that voids, dings and other imperfections can 

generally be fixed.  I had plenty of each but at the end of the day it all 

came out looking great.  A little flox and/or micro balloons can smooth over 

most problem areas.



Best of luck on working your way through the process.



Mark (N410MR Flying)





[quote]From: <millstees(at)ameritech.net>

Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: RE: Cabin cover fit pictures

Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 16:27:59 -0600






Mark:



Yes I have received my canopy, and will begin installing it in about a

month.



Steve Mills

RV-10 40486 Slow-build

Naperville, Illinois

finishing fuselage N750SM (reserved)

Do Not Archive

--

Rick S.

Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 347
Location: Las Vegas

Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:34 pm Post subject: Cabin cover fit pictures

Looking at your web page CJ, you and I looked exactly the same after cutting and sanding....covered in white powder. Once past this though it's almost as good a feeling as finishing the tanks.



Let's start a new war...how many used compressed air to clean themselves off?  



Bad thing just in case you were wondering....



Rick S.

40185



do not archive

_________________
Rick S.
RV-10
40185

acs(at)acspropeller.com.a
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:00 pm Post subject: Cabin cover fit pictures

I'll own up.....I use compressed air to get all the fibreglass dust off

me.....and then a leaf blower to remove from the clothes on the washing

line....and then the pool filter...

A bit like a Cat In The Hat story.



John 40315 do not archive



--

rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:12 am Post subject: Cabin cover fit pictures

I hosed off and then packed everything up and moved so I didn't have to

clean the shop.  



Do not archive



--

cloudvalley(at)comcast.ne
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:56 am Post subject: Cabin cover fit pictures

Hello John,

 So is anyone going to develop a "carbon copy" alternative to the fiberglass canopy? My wife are not nearly ready yet; we have only finished the empennage, but we are interested. Please let us know more. Thank you

  

 Brian and Ruth Preston

 #40666

  

 [quote]-------------- Original message -------------- 

From: "John W. Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com> 



[quote] --> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" 

 

 I appreciate Steve's contrarian view and consternation. A balance in 

 intelligent conversation is a good thing. So was the comment on corrosion. 

 

 Each may be found to be baseless but is heartfelt and therefore worth reading. 

 Toray is the supplier, the shortage is only when buying hundreds of bolts of 

 production for commercial airliner manufacture (we use the stuff at work every 

 day)and only momentary in time as to supply shortages. It is not holding up 

 Boeing sales one iota. 

 

 The world of plastic planes has come a long way from Styrofoam glued slabs, 

 hotwire and paper cup mixing process in darkened ga  rages.  The White Knight was 

 a great example. The heavens are now our limit. Fitment and finish is a matter 

 of mold building, quality control and where the labor is applied. I feel many 

 would like to take advantage of the QB concept on labor application, just like 

 doing repetitive rivets on the umpteenth wing rib. The marketplace will sort 

 out each person's place. The 51% rule should insure that each builder has the 

 knowledge and skill set to maintain the safety and airworthiness of their kit. 

 

 I respectfully conclude Steve that if VANS canopy is of higher quality than your 

 workmanship on your last aircraft, we are talking totally of different issues. 

 Integrated roll bars, air distribution plenum with overhead lights and switches, 

 fitment to within 0.010", improved placement and adhesion of windows, advanced 

 door hinges and lockable latch assemblies are the improvements being c  onside red. 

 Oh yes, don't let me forget the work Dave McNeill did on improved shoulder 

 harness mount points. Did I mention dozens of hours not washing off fiberglass 

 dust from your arms and purging your respiratory system to catch a breath. 

 

 Carbon fiber is superior for antenna ground planes and static dissipation. The 

 wingtips would likely remain fiberglass for antennae concealment. A simple tape 

 of fiberglass impregnated resin has resolved the contact between dissimilar 

 materials on the nobility table for performance military aircraft for years. I 

 am confident that corrosion is not going to be an issue. The product will not be 

 for everyone. Nor is it intended to be. There may be some who would actually 

 like to build their own mold and lay it up. To each their own product. 

 

 I suspect Mark's question was answered within your response. 

 

 John Cox 

   #4060 0 

 

 

 --

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 10:44 am Post subject: Cabin cover fit pictures

Yes an aeronautics manufacturer is considering such a product.  

   

It cannot be a “carbon copy”, beyond exact attachment points and exterior detail airflow.  The construction features, door hinging, security latching and safety items are (In my opinion) an improvement.  To the novice, it would not be identifiable until the door opens.  

   

When the first canopy is installed, it would have to be tested to standards.    

John Cox 

 

   

        

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of cloudvalley(at)comcast.net

 Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 7:55 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Cabin cover fit pictures  

  

     

Hello John,  

    

So is anyone going to develop a "carbon copy" alternative to the fiberglass canopy? My wife are not nearly ready yet; we have only finished the empennage, but we are interested. Please let us know more. Thank you  

    

   

    

Brian and Ruth Preston  

    

#40666  

    

   

  [quote]  

-------------- Original message -------------- 

 From: "John W. Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com> 

 

 > --> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" 

 > 

 > I appreciate Steve's contrarian view and consternation. A balance in 

 > intelligent conversation is a good thing. So was the comment on corrosion. 

 > 

 > Each may be found to be baseless but is heartfelt and therefore worth reading. 

 > Toray is the supplier, the shortage is only when buying hundreds of bolts of 

 > production for commercial airliner manufacture (we use the stuff at work every 

 > day)and only momentary in time as to supply shortages. It is not holding up 

 > Boeing sales one iota. 

 > 

 > The world of plastic planes has come a long way from Styrofoam glued slabs, 

 > hotwire and paper cup mixing process in darkened ga rages. The White Knight was 

 > a great example. The heavens are now our limit. Fitment and finish is a matter 

 > of mold building, quality control and where the labor is applied. I feel many 

 > would like to take advantage of the QB concept on labor application, just like 

 > doing repetitive rivets on the umpteenth wing rib. The marketplace will sort 

 > out each person's place. The 51% rule should insure that each builder has the 

 > knowledge and skill set to maintain the safety and airworthiness of their kit. 

 > 

 > I respectfully conclude Steve that if VANS canopy is of higher quality than your 

 > workmanship on your last aircraft, we are talking totally of different issues. 

 > Integrated roll bars, air distribution plenum with overhead lights and switches, 

 > fitment to within 0.010", improved placement and adhesion of windows, advanced 

 > door hinges and lockable latch assemblies are the improvements being c onside red. 

 > Oh yes, don't let me forget the work Dave McNeill did on improved shoulder 

 > harness mount points. Did I mention dozens of hours not washing off fiberglass 

 > dust from your arms and purging your respiratory system to catch a breath. 

 > 

 > Carbon fiber is superior for antenna ground planes and static dissipation. The 

 > wingtips would likely remain fiberglass for antennae concealment. A simple tape 

 > of fiberglass impregnated resin has resolved the contact between dissimilar 

 > materials on the nobility table for performance military aircraft for years. I 

 > am confident that corrosion is not going to be an issue. The product will not be 

 > for everyone. Nor is it intended to be. There may be some who would actually 

 > like to build their own mold and lay it up. To each their own product. 

 > 

 > I suspect Mark's question was answered within your response. 

 > 

 > John Cox 

 > #4060 0 

 > 

 > 

 > --

mritter509(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 11:22 am Post subject: Cabin cover fit pictures

Us early adopters are missing out on all the good stuff starting to come 

down the pike.  If this does become available and a builder goes that route 

just think of the "fibergalss education" they will miss.



Mark (N410MR Flying)





[quote]From: "John W. Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com>

Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: RE: Cabin cover fit pictures

Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 10:44:04 -0800



Yes an aeronautics manufacturer is considering such a product.



It cannot be a "carbon copy", beyond exact attachment points and

exterior detail airflow.  The construction features, door hinging,

security latching and safety items are (In my opinion) an improvement.

To the novice, it would not be identifiable until the door opens.



When the first canopy is installed, it would have to be tested to

standards.



John Cox



________________________________



From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com

[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of

cloudvalley(at)comcast.net

Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 7:55 AM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Cabin cover fit pictures



Hello John,



So is anyone going to develop a "carbon copy" alternative to the

fiberglass canopy? My wife are not nearly ready yet; we have only

finished the empennage, but we are interested. Please let us know more.

Thank you



Brian and Ruth Preston



#40666



	-------------- Original message --------------

	From: "John W. Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com>



	> 

	>

	> I appreciate Steve's contrarian view and consternation. A

balance in

	> intelligent conversation is a good thing. So was the comment

on corrosion.

	>

	> Each may be found to be baseless but is heartfelt and

therefore worth reading.

	> Toray is the supplier, the shortage is only when buying

hundreds of bolts of

	> production for commercial airliner manufacture (we use the

stuff at work every

	> day)and only momentary in time as to supply shortages. It is

not holding up

	> Boeing sales one iota.

	>

	> The world of plastic planes has come a long way from Styrofoam

glued slabs,

	> hotwire and paper cup mixing process in darkened ga rages. The

White Knight was

	> a great example. The heavens are now our limit. Fitment and

finish is a matter

	> of mold building, quality control and where the labor is

applied. I feel many

	> would like to take advantage of the QB concept on labor

application, just like

	> doing repetitive rivets on the umpteenth wing rib. The

marketplace will sort

	> out each person's place. The 51% rule should insure that each

builder has the

	> knowledge and skill set to maintain the safety and

airworthiness of their kit.

	>

	> I respectfully conclude Steve that if VANS canopy is of higher

quality than your

	> workmanship on your last aircraft, we are talking totally of

different issues.

	> Integrated roll bars, air distribution plenum with overhead

lights and switches,

	> fitment to within 0.010", improved placement and adhesion of

windows, advanced

	> door hinges and lockable latch assemblies are the improvements

being c onside red.

	> Oh yes, don't let me forget the work Dave McNeill did on

improved shoulder

	> harness mount points. Did I mention dozens of hours not

washing off fiberglass

	> dust from your arms and purging your respiratory system to

catch a breath.

	>

	> Carbon fiber is superior for antenna ground planes and static

dissipation. The

	> wingtips would likely remain fiberglass for antennae

concealment. A simple tape

	> of fiberglass impregnated resin has resolved the contact

between dissimilar

	> materials on the nobility table for performance military

aircraft for years. I

	> am confident that corrosion is not going to be an issue. The

product will not be

	> for everyone. Nor is it intended to be. There may be some who

would actually

	> like to build their own mold and lay it up. To each their own

product.

	>

	> I suspect Mark's question was answered within your response.

	>

	> John Cox

	> #4060 0

	>

	>

	> --

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