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Firewall covering

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AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 2:48 pm Post subject: Firewall covering

Chris - as I was reviewing your website for cowl information and

pictures to balance with Deems great work, I noticed that you and

Bethany have a page on your website

http://www.perfectlygoodairplane.net/Perfectlygoodairplane/Firewall%20Pa

inting.html that uses some interesting product.  Can you expound with a

new thread?



John Cox

#40600



Chris Johnston wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

<CJohnston(at)popsound.com>
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

Hey Deems - 



Are you using the plenum?  I've not really decided, and was wondering

if
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  others had thoughts about it.  I don't know much about the mechanics of

it, but it seems like it'd improve cooling etc.  Also it (I guess)

would
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  reduce stress on the cowl and attachments, as the plenum is pressurized

and not the entire cowl.  Am I incorrect here?  What about inspecting

the engine through the oil filler hole?  You wouldn't see the top of

the
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  engine there - is that a bummer?  Also, doesn't the engine get hot

where
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  it gets close to the plenum?  Is this a problem?  I'd love any info

before I go calling Sam about it.



cj

#40410

fuse

www.perfectlygoodairplane.net



Chris Johnston wrote:



  



>Just thought I'd chime in here - I just sent my check off for my Sam 

>James RV-10 Cowl, and I do have my standard cowl here as well, so when

>    

>



  



>the new cowl comes I'll give a pirep and snap some pics illustrating 

>the differences in quality and shape. I got the RV-10 cowl for the 

>standard, not the cold air induction. We'll see.

>

>cj

>

>#40410

>

>fuse

>

>www.perfectlygoodairplane.net

>

CJohnston(at)popsound.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:34 pm Post subject: Firewall covering

Sure.  



Well, I do a lot of research when it comes to airplane building, and

frequently, my history with race cars comes to my aid.  When you think

about it, a race car and an aircraft have similar needs.  It needs to be

light and strong, you want to keep your fluids where you put them, and

much of the time, you battle heat issues.  So when people started

talking about the infamous "tunnel", I started listening.  I considered

and rejected a bunch of things (foil backed graphite sheets, etc.) and

finally found this stuff.



http://www.lizardskin.com/pages/ceramic.php



I called "the guy" over there, and he seemed to know what he was talking

about.  I took notes at the time, but I've since lost them.  The point

was that the paint is thick, it dries VERY lightweight, and it

apparently does a good job of rejecting heat.  It also kind of seals

little voids which is an added plus.  I also took note of this page of

the website:



http://www.lizardskin.com/pages/testimonials4.php



So there it was.  It seemed to fit the bill, and I'll also use some

mylar faced fiberglass race car insulation on the firewall and in the

tunnel to add a bit more to the insulating properties.  Initially, I

thought I'd just use it in the tunnel area under my false floor, and

under the pilot/copilot floor as shown here

http://www.perfectlygoodairplane.net/Perfectlygoodairplane/Tunnel%20Modi

fication.html

but after thinking more about it, I decided to do the firewall as well.

The pros are basically that it's supposed to reduce the temp in the

cabin, and seal the firewall a bit extra (I also did firewall sealant

around the seams and nutplates).  It sticks well to everything, and it's

very light.  It's also water soluble and paintable.  The cons?  Well the

paint isn't smooth after you apply it.  it's so thick, that it's got

kind of a car undercoat texture.  It's very messy to apply.  You must

mask very well and very carefully.  Also, you must peal the mask before

the paint fully dries.  It uses a special gun that you have to buy.

There's no way you could spray it with a normal gun.  No way.  Also, I

suppose for inspections, you can't pull it away from the firewall to see

the condition of the shop heads and stiffeners.  I decided that I'd be

ok with that, as long as I could still see the steel engine mount

thingys at the corners of the firewall.  So in the end, I masked those,

and the rivet lines for the forward fuse deck, and the attach point for

my parking brake, and painted the rest.  I might also paint the

underside of the false floor I built in the tunnel after I get the

brackets riveted to it.



As an aside, don't get to thinking that the sound deadening stuff on the

lizard skin website is going to be your friend, because it's REALLY

heavy.



Hope that answers any questions.



cj

#40410

fuse

www.perfectlygoodairplane.net

--

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:18 pm Post subject: Firewall covering

Thanks for the great post.



A comment.  Dan Newland who specializes in fire suppression blankets

reminded me that one of their company's products ORCON must be removable

during the conditional inspection to search for corrosion.  A result of

condensation from moisture in air vapors.  When foam material is glued,

it is real bear to tear off to effect such a corrosion inspection. On

our airline birds, the suppression batting gets soaked and is impossible

to dry out effectively.  We have to throw it away and you would then

know why tickets are so expensive if you saw the cost.  The amount of

corrosion that forms from the condensate.... WOW. 



The idea of a product which covers the aluminum skin and may also

provide corrosion protection is of value.  I don't know the answer but I

will do some digging.  I know they say in their marketing that it does

protect the surface.



The Question.  Their site mentions MSRP of $189.00 for a 2 gallon

container.  How much did you use?  Is the residual available for

purchase. Bethany had a blue paste in one picture but then it looked

dark grey on drying. Should we pursue a group buy and divvy it up like a

Coop?



John Cox

#600

--

CJohnston(at)popsound.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 6:02 pm Post subject: Firewall covering

I'm not sure how much I used, but there's got to be over a gallon left.

It was expensive (paint and gun system), but I was willing to give it a

try.  I was kind of reserving judgment til I got flying so I could see

what the real poop on it was, as it's kind of a commitment to go

squirting some unknown quantity all over the inside of your airplane.  I

didn't want to bring it up then figure out that it sucked, basically.

However, if others feel like taking the plunge right along with me, I'm

willing to pass around the gun system and the leftover paint to whoever

wants to use it.  I just want to be clear up front that yes, I think it

should work, yes it looks like it should work, yes, I'm happy with my

results (untested as they may be), but I don't KNOW that it is as neato

as I think it is.  One test that I've been meaning to do is just get my

heat gun out and heat up the engine side with it while touching the

interior side with my hand.  Not too scientific, but I don't have an IR

temp gauge to use.  I'll check it out this evening and report back.  



But back to the question, I really don't see the need for others to go

buying this special gun when this is the only thing you'll ever use it

for.  We'll just pass it around to whoever wants to check it out - it

only takes a day to squirt the stuff.  Let me know if you want to, maybe

just cover shipping to you.  I'm willing to throw a tool and some

leftover paint in the pot if it's helpful to other builders.  I expected

it all to just collect dust in my garage anyway...



Oh - yea, it looks purplish while you're mixing it (you have to mix with

a drill driven paint mixer for a couple minutes til it looks smooth) but

dries a flat chalky black.  Also, it's pretty tough stuff.  It doesn't

flake or chip easily.



cj

#40410

fuse

www.perfectlygoodairplane.net



--

lm(at)viscomvisual.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:52 pm Post subject: Firewall covering

There is another product from 'Super Soundproofing' named "Sound Damping

Liquid" that seems to have similar properties. Question: Has anybody used

this? What are the pros and cons to 'LizardSkin'? The spray gun seems to be

a lot cheaper and material about the same.



http://www.soundproofing.org/sales/liquid.htm



Lorenz.

#40280



[quote] --

rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:06 am Post subject: Firewall covering

This Looks to be the same thing as what I used but twice as much.  http://www.quietcoat.com/index.html  It works very well at deadening sound but will add weight.  A 5 gal pail is about 72lbs, less than Dynamat though.  Check the archives for more info.  Also as ceramic paint seems to be a current topic again, there should be some stuff in there about my experience on the subject as I did a full battery of tests on a ceramic paint additive that I used.  Funny how those archives have information in them isn't it.  



Michael Sausen

-10 #352 Limbo



--

kearney(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 10:37 am Post subject: Firewall covering

Hmmm



Wouldn't a Soob be lighter and quieter?



Cheers



Les (who is now looking for a Nomex suit!).



Do not archive



--

armywrights(at)adelphia.n
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:49 am Post subject: Firewall covering

Looking for experience with Koolmat

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/koolmat.php



Rob Wright

#392

Fuse



--

Deems Davis

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 925

Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:43 am Post subject: Firewall covering

Brian Sutherland http://www.mykitlog.com/rv10builder installed this on 

his  -10, you can find it on his website. I'd contact him directly for 

any questions.



Deems Davis # 406

Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )

http://deemsrv10.com/



Rob Wright wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Looking for experience with Koolmat

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/koolmat.php

Rick S.

Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 347
Location: Las Vegas

Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:46 am Post subject: Firewall covering

Rob,



I'm using it. I saw it on Nextel cup cars firewalls first, Koolmat even recommends it on thier site. My install is just like Brian's. I cutout the engine mount areas but put the heat boxes on top of the mat. I was surprised at the weight, it was heavier than I expected about 4 lbs I guesstimate but it will hold off the heat and fire if it performs as Koolmat states. I am using dots of Red RTV to attach at the perimeter to allow the cover to be removed for corrosion inspection annually. It's nice looking material and I could not get it to burn with my propane torch, take the flame away and it just turned black. 



Rick S. 

40185

_________________
Rick S.
RV-10
40185

armywrights(at)adelphia.n
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:00 pm Post subject: Firewall covering

I'm unfamiliar with the corroding properties of stainless, since we all talk

about the ALCLAD stuff so much.  Any quick tidbits?



Rob



--

patrick.pulis(at)seagas.c
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:32 pm Post subject: Firewall covering

Rob, stainless steel comes in many grades, however the 'anti-corrosion'

properties are achieved by alloying the steel with chromium and other

metals and the fact that the resulting metal produces and extremely hard

oxide layer (aluminium has the same hard protective oxide layer) which

gives the ultimate protection.



If this oxide layer doesn't form or cannot be maintained as would be the

case when air is excluded from the surface, then the presence of

moisture will allow corrosion to occur.



Try wrapping a thin rubber band tightly around a small piece of

stainless and submerge it in water for a week.  You'll notice that

corrosion soon forms where the rubber band contacts the edges of the

stainless, however the rest of the surface is otherwise sound.  That's

because the rubber band stops any air from reaching the steel and

degrades the formation of the protective oxide layer over the surface of

the metal.



If the rubber bad is tight enough, it will eventually start eating its

way into the steel from either side where the rubber band touches the

steel.



So the aim is to ensure that stainless has access to airflow in order to

ensure that the protective oxide layer is maintained.  I hope this

helps.



Regards



Patrick Pulis

#40299



Downunder in the lovely warm summer weather of Adelaide, South Australia



DO NOT ARCHIVE 



--

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