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papadaddyo(at)tampabay.rr
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 Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 3:28 pm Post subject: Elevator counterbalance weight |
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OK, call me dumb and I know, always measure twice and saw once. You guessed it, I trimmed one elevator counterbalance weight wrong and cut a bit too much off. How will this affect the elevator and rigging later on? Should I suck it up and get a new weight or go with this one? It’s probably only a few ounces off. I haven’t weighed it.
Rick Leach
40397
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ScooterF15
Joined: 19 Jun 2006
Posts: 136
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| Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 3:38 pm Post subject: Elevator counterbalance weight |
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Properly mass balanced control surfaces are important for reducing the effects of pilot induced oscillation (PIO) and flutter. This is one place where I would be especially careful to follow Van's plans precisely, as they have done the math and engineering on this for us.
Jim
40134
In a message dated 1/21/2007 6:30:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, papadaddyo(at)tampabay.rr.com writes:
| Quote: |
OK, call me dumb and I know, always measure twice and saw once. You guessed it, I trimmed one elevator counterbalance weight wrong and cut a bit too much off. How will this affect the elevator and rigging later on? Should I suck it up and get a new weight or go with this one? It’s probably only a few ounces off. I haven’t weighed it.
Rick Leach
40397
| Quote: |
="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
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Jim "Scooter" McGrew
http://www.mit.edu/~jsmcgrew
[quote][b]
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carl.froehlich(at)cox.net
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| Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 4:49 pm Post subject: Elevator counterbalance weight |
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While on the subject, I sent a note to Van's asking about adding additional weight to the counterbalance as the trailing edge of the elevators are significantly heavy with the per plans counterbalance. This was different than that experience when building my RV-8A.
Van's response was it is normal for the elevator trialing edges to droop down. The response did not however answer my question about need to add weight or not.
What are others doing?
Carl Froehlich
RV-10 (wings)
RV-8A (300 hrs)
[quote] --
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Tim(at)MyRV10.com
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| Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 4:54 pm Post subject: Elevator counterbalance weight |
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Take no chances here. It's worth the shipping to get a new part.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Rick Leach wrote:
| Quote: | OK, call me dumb and I know, always measure twice and saw once. You
guessed it, I trimmed one elevator counterbalance weight wrong and cut a
bit too much off. How will this affect the elevator and rigging later
on? Should I suck it up and get a new weight or go with this one? It’s
probably only a few ounces off. I haven’t weighed it.
Rick Leach
40397
*
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mmixon(at)fastspot.net
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| Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 8:16 pm Post subject: Elevator counterbalance weight |
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Now I am becoming concerned. How does one know if he cut off too much? How much are the weights supposed to weigh after mounting? How much difference between the two sides is acceptable?
Marvin Mixon
40633
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl Froehlich
Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 6:49 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Elevator counterbalance weight
While on the subject, I sent a note to Van's asking about adding additional weight to the counterbalance as the trailing edge of the elevators are significantly heavy with the per plans counterbalance. This was different than that experience when building my RV-8A.
Van's response was it is normal for the elevator trialing edges to droop down. The response did not however answer my question about need to add weight or not.
What are others doing?
Carl Froehlich
RV-10 (wings)
RV-8A (300 hrs)
| Quote: |
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of JSMcGrew(at)aol.com
Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 6:38 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Elevator counterbalance weight
Properly mass balanced control surfaces are important for reducing the effects of pilot induced oscillation (PIO) and flutter. This is one place where I would be especially careful to follow Van's plans precisely, as they have done the math and engineering on this for us.
Jim
40134
In a message dated 1/21/2007 6:30:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, papadaddyo(at)tampabay.rr.com writes:
| Quote: |
OK, call me dumb and I know, always measure twice and saw once. You guessed it, I trimmed one elevator counterbalance weight wrong and cut a bit too much off. How will this affect the elevator and rigging later on? Should I suck it up and get a new weight or go with this one? It’s probably only a few ounces off. I haven’t weighed it.
Rick Leach
40397
| Quote: | | ="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com |
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Jim "Scooter" McGrew
http://www.mit.edu/~jsmcgrew
| Quote: | | href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com |
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-- Date: 1/20/2007 10:31 PM
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1/20/2007 10:31 PM
[quote][b]
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indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 8:57 pm Post subject: Elevator counterbalance weight |
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Get a new one.
I used a band saw for the rough cut and finished it with a vixen file.
Dumb is not cutting it incorrectly. Dumb is cutting it incorrectly and then
realizing it and then using it.
This is the kind of thing that should be eating away at your brain even
before the plane gets airborn. If not now, then certainly when you are in
the air. Just think of that little voice you hear now being amplified by
1000 times when something sounds incorrect when in the air or doesn't feel
right and then multiply it by all the other items you questioned during the
building process. Too much imput for me.
Just do it correctly, it makes it a lot easier in the end and a lot safer.
Just my thoughts.
John G. 409
| Quote: | From: "Rick Leach" <papadaddyo(at)tampabay.rr.com>
Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Elevator counterbalance weight
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 18:27:30 -0500
OK, call me dumb and I know, always measure twice and saw once. You
guessed
it, I trimmed one elevator counterbalance weight wrong and cut a bit too
much off. How will this affect the elevator and rigging later on? Should
I
suck it up and get a new weight or go with this one? It's probably only a
few ounces off. I haven't weighed it.
Rick Leach
40397
|
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ddddsp1(at)juno.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 9:52 pm Post subject: Elevator counterbalance weight |
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So how many people are having an A&P BALANCE all the control surfaces after completing the plane and painting it?
All certified aircraft must have the control surfaces balanced after painting?
Dean 40449
________________________________________________________________________
Interested in getting caught up on today's news?
Click here to checkout USA TODAY Headlines.
[quote][b]
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rv10(at)sinkrate.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 10:40 pm Post subject: Elevator counterbalance weight |
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Define “…a bit too much off.”? Is it a significant percentage say more than 10% of the weight? If so you probably should order some new lead but if not then I would just wait and see after balancing them.
I wouldn’t loose a ton of sleep over it either. You are going to balance the control surfaces before flying right? If you don’t have to add weight to get them balanced then consider your screw up really a fix but If you do need to add weight then its time to order some new lead. Van’s is 20min by car from my house though so I usually don’t consider the time involved to get new ones (just the time off work since the place is usually a ghost town at 4:30pm).
I have not installed or balanced my elevators on the 10 yet but I have on a RV9A and a RV4. In both cases the weights that we started with were too heavy and needed some significant trimming to be considered balanced. Everyone’s planes will be different as some builders proseal the trailing edges and others don’t. How about the weight differences in the trim cable anchor brackets from van’s vs. some of the aftermarket ones? My point being Van’s can’t supply you with the exact counterweight 100% of the time.
The 4 & the 9 that I fly have balanced control surfaces and do not “droop” as one person said. Despite my repeated efforts neither of them have fallen out of the sky J.
Ben Westfall
#40579 – Gas Tanks…. still
Portland, OR
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marvin Mixon
Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 8:16 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Elevator counterbalance weight
Now I am becoming concerned. How does one know if he cut off too much? How much are the weights supposed to weigh after mounting? How much difference between the two sides is acceptable?
Marvin Mixon
40633
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl Froehlich
Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 6:49 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Elevator counterbalance weight
While on the subject, I sent a note to Van's asking about adding additional weight to the counterbalance as the trailing edge of the elevators are significantly heavy with the per plans counterbalance. This was different than that experience when building my RV-8A.
Van's response was it is normal for the elevator trialing edges to droop down. The response did not however answer my question about need to add weight or not.
What are others doing?
Carl Froehlich
RV-10 (wings)
RV-8A (300 hrs)
| Quote: |
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of JSMcGrew(at)aol.com
Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 6:38 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Elevator counterbalance weight
Properly mass balanced control surfaces are important for reducing the effects of pilot induced oscillation (PIO) and flutter. This is one place where I would be especially careful to follow Van's plans precisely, as they have done the math and engineering on this for us.
Jim
40134
In a message dated 1/21/2007 6:30:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, papadaddyo(at)tampabay.rr.com writes:
| Quote: |
OK, call me dumb and I know, always measure twice and saw once. You guessed it, I trimmed one elevator counterbalance weight wrong and cut a bit too much off. How will this affect the elevator and rigging later on? Should I suck it up and get a new weight or go with this one? It’s probably only a few ounces off. I haven’t weighed it.
Rick Leach
40397
| Quote: | | ="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com |
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Jim "Scooter" McGrew
http://www.mit.edu/~jsmcgrew
| Quote: | | href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com |
|
012[/b] [/quote]34http://forums.matronics.com[/b] [/quote]5
-- Date: 1/20/2007 10:31 PM
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1/20/2007 10:31 PM 6789 | Quote: | | ="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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9 | Quote: | | .matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com |
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[quote][b]
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AV8ORJWC
Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"
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| Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 10:48 pm Post subject: Elevator counterbalance weight |
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Count me in. Wouldn’t pilot one that hasn’t been. Sometimes ride passenger in those who didn’t cause a love RV-10s and think the world of those guys and gals who are done building. Given the warning by VANS about flutter and VNE limits, it sounds pretty important doesn’t it?
John Cox
#40600
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of ddddsp1(at)juno.com
Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 9:50 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Elevator counterbalance weight
So how many people are having an A&P BALANCE all the control surfaces after completing the plane and painting it?
All certified aircraft must have the control surfaces balanced after painting?
Dean 40449
________________________________________________________________________
Interested in getting caught up on today's news?
Click here to checkout USA TODAY Headlines. [quote] [b]
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MikeEasley(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:21 am Post subject: Elevator counterbalance weight |
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As a general rule, it's better to be a little overbalanced than underbalanced, if you're worried about flutter. I balanced all my surfaces on my Lancair both before and after painting. One possible solution would be to cut the weight a little big (heavy) then drill a hole in it until you're balanced. Then after painting you could pour molten lead in the hole to bring the weight up to the new balance.
Mike Easley
Colorado Springs
[quote][b]
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rickgray(at)roadrunner.co
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:03 am Post subject: Elevator counterbalance weight |
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The RV10 is NOT the same as 'other' RV's when it comes to 'balancing' the elevators. After installation of the 'plans' counterweights the trailing edge will remain 'heavy' when hung by the rod end bearings by design. It would take ~another 1lb ingot of lead on each elevator horn to 'balance' as you did with your 'other' RV's. Again....not the case on the 10.....savvy?
It's not spelled out in the plans....this info from Vans via land line.
For the archives.
Rick in Ohio at the Buffalo Farm
http://rv6rick.tripod.com/ohiovalleyrvators/
[quote] ---
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james.k.hovis(at)gmail.co
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:45 am Post subject: Elevator counterbalance weight |
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How many C-172's do you see on a ramp with the elevators drooping? The
elevators themselves are balanced about the hinge-line, but the
control linkage weights basically "pull down" the elevator. This is
also one reason there's an aerodynamic balance tab on a C-172
elevator.
On 1/22/07, Rick Gray <rickgray(at)roadrunner.com> wrote:
[quote] The RV10 is NOT the same as 'other' RV's when it comes to 'balancing' the
elevators. After installation of the 'plans' counterweights the trailing
edge will remain 'heavy' when hung by the rod end bearings by design. It
would take ~another 1lb ingot of lead on each elevator horn to 'balance' as
you did with your 'other' RV's. Again....not the case on the 10.....savvy?
It's not spelled out in the plans....this info from Vans via land line.
For the archives.
Rick in Ohio at the Buffalo Farm
http://rv6rick.tripod.com/ohiovalleyrvators/
---
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apilot2(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:57 am Post subject: Elevator counterbalance weight |
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Hmm, production(certified) aircraft have a specification for how many
grams wt. you should measure at the trailing edge when the bearings
are suspended on a knife edge. It would seem prudent for Vans to have
such a spec for the -10 if in fact they should not be balanced with
zero wt at the trailing edge.
On 1/22/07, Rick Gray <rickgray(at)roadrunner.com> wrote:
[quote]
The RV10 is NOT the same as 'other' RV's when it comes to 'balancing' the
elevators. After installation of the 'plans' counterweights the trailing
edge will remain 'heavy' when hung by the rod end bearings by design. It
would take ~another 1lb ingot of lead on each elevator horn to 'balance' as
you did with your 'other' RV's. Again....not the case on the 10.....savvy?
It's not spelled out in the plans....this info from Vans via land line.
For the archives.
Rick in Ohio at the Buffalo Farm
http://rv6rick.tripod.com/ohiovalleyrvators/
---
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rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:04 am Post subject: Elevator counterbalance weight |
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If you over cut, don’t waste your money on ordering a new weight. Nail up some scrap wood to the same shape as the original, melt the lead, and pour a new one. Much cheaper than the shipping charge on a buck worth of lead.
Michael Sausen
-10 #352 limbo [quote] [b]
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jdalton77(at)comcast.net
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:04 am Post subject: Elevator counterbalance weight |
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wow, we seem to have found an alternative to "primer wars!" Whoo hoo!
Jeff Dalton
Starting Wings
[quote] ---
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apilot2(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:23 am Post subject: Elevator counterbalance weight |
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The 172's I've flown(pre 1977) had nothing of the sort. The elevator
would fall to the rear of its own weight. The only tab on the elevator
is the trim tab. But its a little different when Vne is 150 mph.
Mooneys on the other hand, have Vne's of 189mph MIAS and up(most newer
models well over 200kts), and they definitely are balanced with the
elevator tail heavy, with a weight spec specific to the model, while
some models have bungee springs that change the resting point of the
elevator depending on the trim position, because the entire tail
pivots, changing the angle of incidence of the horizontal stab.
On 1/22/07, James K Hovis <james.k.hovis(at)gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
How many C-172's do you see on a ramp with the elevators drooping? The
elevators themselves are balanced about the hinge-line, but the
control linkage weights basically "pull down" the elevator. This is
also one reason there's an aerodynamic balance tab on a C-172
elevator.
|
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AV8ORJWC
Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 10:12 am Post subject: Elevator counterbalance weight |
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Rick -
It remains an intermittent occurrence on this list, that builders will try to persuade other new builders to cut a safety corner "here or there" because they haven't had the problem yet. There is(are) a clear reason(s) why control surfaces require a certificated A & P to balance them after painting and log the compliance. I would hope all readers either understand the reasons or research it for their own enlightenment.
Last week, a surviving spouse using an ambulance chasing barrister (Please no offense intended Russ), prevailed in a $10.5 million dollar settlement against the third largest EAA fly-in in the country. Arlington, WA has always been a great retreat around the 4th of July each year - until now. The circumstance was a pilot of an RV-6A failed to complete a landing on the airport and was cremated when all the little extinguishers by the EAAers ran out. The wife and her barrister will be splitting $8.5 million which is to be paid 50% by all EAA members and the specific chapter in Washington. The attorney for the fire department got their responsibility for not responding faster (6 minutes) to be dropped (hence the $2 million that will not be paid by the City or the Fire Department). Their patience since 1999 and your membership dues have made at least two people happy.
When you consider not balancing your control surface, think about those other builders who will cover the cost (after the fact) and choose wisely. As a timeline reference, the correction of the improper cut can be done "After Paint but before Flight" and we will all rest better. I would be pleased to get the replacement part for you (as I live only 7 minutes away and ship it no cost by FEDEX whenever you choose).
John Cox - KUAO
#40600
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From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Gray
Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 7:02 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Elevator counterbalance weight
The RV10 is NOT the same as 'other' RV's when it comes to 'balancing' the elevators. After installation of the 'plans' counterweights the trailing edge will remain 'heavy' when hung by the rod end bearings by design. It would take ~another 1lb ingot of lead on each elevator horn to 'balance' as you did with your 'other' RV's. Again....not the case on the 10.....savvy?
It's not spelled out in the plans....this info from Vans via land line.
For the archives.
Rick in Ohio at the Buffalo Farm
http://rv6rick.tripod.com/ohiovalleyrvators/
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AV8ORJWC
Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 10:13 am Post subject: Elevator counterbalance weight |
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Well Said Kelly.
John Cox
#40600
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AV8ORJWC
Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 10:15 am Post subject: Elevator counterbalance weight |
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Following Michael’s dry sense of humor, rather than be exposed to the ravages of dryrot, just cut off 10% of the control surface trailing edge or an equal weight of control surface aluminum.
John Cox
#600
Do not Archive
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen)
Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 7:59 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Elevator counterbalance weight
If you over cut, don’t waste your money on ordering a new weight. Nail up some scrap wood to the same shape as the original, melt the lead, and pour a new one. Much cheaper than the shipping charge on a buck worth of lead.
Michael Sausen
-10 #352 limbo [quote] [b]
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AV8ORJWC
Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 10:18 am Post subject: Elevator counterbalance weight |
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Wars should always be a time for continual questioning, introspection and a perspective for extending human life. Maybe Primers are about to gain meaning in the life of RV-10 builders. Or then there is my favorite phrase - "The tree of life IS self pruning".
John Cox
Do not Archive
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From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of jdalton77
Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 8:01 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Elevator counterbalance weight
wow, we seem to have found an alternative to "primer wars!" Whoo hoo!
Jeff Dalton
Starting Wings
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