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Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2881

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:47 am Post subject: Interesting panel-mount handheld GPS comment

I saw this in today's AOPA newsletter:



FAA MAY TAKE AWAY PANEL-MOUNT OPTION FOR PORTABLE GPS

Think your portable GPS would work great mounted to your old Cessna 

172's instrument panel? If the FAA has its way, you won't be able to 

mount it.

The parts--panel dock and connective wiring--needed to mount your 

portable  GPS would either no longer be available or be too expensive to 

buy. The FAA's proposal would make it illegal for manufacturers to 

produce a  replacement or modification part if they know (or should 

know) the part would end up installed in a certified aircraft--that is 

unless they obtain production approval from the agency. But that costs 

tens of thousands of  dollars, something many companies can't afford. 

While AOPA agrees production approval is necessary for critical parts 

like connecting rods and cylinders, it isn't needed for non-critical 

parts like a portable GPS panel dock or traffic detector that enhance 

pilot safety.

See AOPA  Online 

http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsitems/2007/070201parts.html ).



To me, this would seem like pretty much a direct attack on Air gizmos

for the Garmin handheld docking stations.  I know the 396/496 get

awfully tempting to substitute in for a certified box.  They must

be seeing some 337's (or worse....NOT seeing 337's) coming in on

putting those in certified planes.  They're great boxes, but apparently

the FAA has their opinion of what they want to see.



Never thought I'd read that when I woke up today.



-- 

Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

GRANSCOTT(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:19 am Post subject: Interesting panel-mount handheld GPS comment

Tim posted...

  

 I saw this in today's AOPA newsletter:



FAA MAY TAKE AWAY  PANEL-MOUNT OPTION FOR PORTABLE GPS

Think your portable GPS would work great  mounted to your old Cessna 

172's instrument panel? 

  

 From what I see, the LSA folks are creating or mounting portable  devices in their panels.  I'm not an expert on FAR regs...now CIR's but  isn't there an item somewhere about permanent mounted devices needing FAA  approval...I think the FAA may have been a little lax in recent years on the LSA  crowd since most of them are approved oversea's and with the conventions they  must accept what other countries have approved unless safety is  compromised.

  

 This may be a statement from them (FAA) laying a line in the sand on  production products...probably will not affect experimental's, though.

  

 P  

  

  



  [quote][b]

rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:46 am Post subject: Interesting panel-mount handheld GPS comment

I read that too.  I wonder if there really are that many of the docks

being put in the certified aircraft.  I always assumed they were

targeting the experimental and other markets.  It sucks but at least

they aren't saying that you can't use them period.



  You can always go with some of the old external mounting options.  I

have a suction cup gooseneck mount that I would use to mount my 196 in

rentals that worked quite well.  I also put a little puck mount in both

of my vehicles and I can move it between them quickly.



Michael



--

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2881

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 6:25 am Post subject: Interesting panel-mount handheld GPS comment

Ahh, you're probably right...it's probably due to the new

LSA's being developed like that as production planes.

I do agree that this isn't likely to affect experimentals

much, but it does show their philosophical direction, so for

a hardcore IFR plane, consideration as to what you put in

should be thought out carefully.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Tim posted...

  

 I saw this in today's AOPA newsletter:

 

 FAA MAY TAKE AWAY PANEL-MOUNT OPTION FOR PORTABLE GPS

 Think your portable GPS would work great mounted to your old Cessna

 172's instrument panel?

  

  From what I see, the LSA folks are creating or mounting portable 

 devices in their panels.  I'm not an expert on FAR regs...now CIR's but 

 isn't there an item somewhere about permanent mounted devices needing 

 FAA approval...I think the FAA may have been a little lax in recent 

 years on the LSA crowd since most of them are approved oversea's and 

 with the conventions they must accept what other countries have approved 

 unless safety is compromised.

  

 This may be a statement from them (FAA) laying a line in the sand on 

 production products...probably will not affect experimental's, though.

tadsargent(at)bellsouth.n
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:03 am Post subject: Interesting panel-mount handheld GPS comment

I believe experimental means just that.  I could put a TRS80 personal 

computer in the panel if I wanted to use it for navigation or Comm.  I think 

we have much latitude in this respect.  Mounting a GPS on an experimental 

requires no FAA sign off unless you are making major changes to the AC. 

Just a thought.

Tad Sargent

7A and helping build a 10A

---

apilot2(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:09 am Post subject: Interesting panel-mount handheld GPS comment

Let me take you through the logic of the regs as I understand

them..not that any FAA inspector would agree.  Primary reference is

Appendix A of FAR 43.

The Airgizmo mount could be considered a cover plate for a blank space

in a radio rack...clearly a minor modification. Portable devices

connected by temporary, quick disconnects, such as cigar lighter

socket are clearly NOT installed devices, and are for pilot and

passenger amusement and not legal for use in navigation.(that might be

debatable for a portable navcom with VOR that meets the VOR check

rule.

Connecting wiring to said quick disconnect with proper fusing and

aircraft quality wiring may be considered a minor mod, although some

will argue that it could be major, depending on potential implications

to overall electrical system.

Assemble all that together, and plug in a portable GPS, and you have

1. a minor modification, 2. a controversy.

KM

A&P/IA

PS: I'll be real interested to see how much, if any discussion there

is on this point at my IA renewal sessions next month.



On 2/2/07, GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com <GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Tim posted...



 I saw this in today's AOPA newsletter:



 FAA MAY TAKE AWAY PANEL-MOUNT OPTION FOR PORTABLE GPS

 Think your portable GPS would work great mounted to your old Cessna

 172's instrument panel?



 From what I see, the LSA folks are creating or mounting portable devices in

 their panels.  I'm not an expert on FAR regs...now CIR's but isn't there an

 item somewhere about permanent mounted devices needing FAA approval...I

 think the FAA may have been a little lax in recent years on the LSA crowd

 since most of them are approved oversea's and with the conventions they must

 accept what other countries have approved unless safety is compromised.



 This may be a statement from them (FAA) laying a line in the sand on

 production products...probably will not affect experimental's, though.



 P


	


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greenley(at)starband.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:46 am Post subject: Interesting panel-mount handheld GPS comment

I hope that would be a TRS-80 model 100.

Bill

[quote] 



 I believe experimental means just that.  I could put a TRS80 personal

 computer in the panel if I wanted to use it for navigation or Comm.  I

 think  we have much latitude in this respect.  Mounting a GPS on an

 experimental  requires no FAA sign off unless you are making major

 changes to the AC.  Just a thought.

 Tad Sargent

 7A and helping build a 10A

 ---

mike(at)learningplanet.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:53 am Post subject: Interesting panel-mount handheld GPS comment

I don't normally make posts regarding AirGizmos, but in this case I  

feel compelled to tell a bit of the story, just so you guys can know.



AirGizmos is a very small company. I designed the Panel Dock for the  

Garmin 196 when I was building my RV-9A. It was simply a solution to  

a problem that I had when designing my panel. I am fortunate to have  

a friend who is in the plastics industry. We worked together to make  

something that we could be proud of. It was always intended for  

experimental use. The business just grew because other builders had  

the same problem as I did. I have been amazed at the number of  

positive emails I have received from fellow builders.



Well, over time it seems that certified owners have noticed the  

AirGizmos products because they are looking for solutions to the same  

issues. They want something safer than the yoke-mount contraption  

they've been using. So, we've worked to have burn tests and load  

analyses done on the Panel Dock to make it easier for people to get  

337s approved. Again, this isn't the market we were targeting, but  

there is definitely a lot of demand.



What is really interesting is that this comes down to politics.  

Apparently the people in the avionics industry are not happy. We've  

been approached by the leader of one professional organization saying  

we need to join their association "or else." It felt like extortion  

to me, so we declined. Well, now we see this story. We have good  

working relationships with several avionics shops and local FSDOs,  

and we've provided everything short of a PMA for our products.



The sad part is that in my opinion the AirGizmos Panel Dock is a  

good, safe solution. Much safer than the yoke mount for obvious reasons.



Regards,

Mike Schipper

RV-9A - N63MS - www.my9a.com

RV-10 - #40576 - www.rvten.com

www.airgizmos.com



Do not archive



On Feb 2, 2007, at 6:43 AM, Tim Olson wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I saw this in today's AOPA newsletter:



 FAA MAY TAKE AWAY PANEL-MOUNT OPTION FOR PORTABLE GPS

 Think your portable GPS would work great mounted to your old Cessna  

 172's instrument panel? If the FAA has its way, you won't be able  

 to mount it.

 The parts--panel dock and connective wiring--needed to mount your  

 portable  GPS would either no longer be available or be too  

 expensive to buy. The FAA's proposal would make it illegal for  

 manufacturers to produce a  replacement or modification part if  

 they know (or should know) the part would end up installed in a  

 certified aircraft--that is unless they obtain production approval  

 from the agency. But that costs tens of thousands of  dollars,  

 something many companies can't afford. While AOPA agrees production  

 approval is necessary for critical parts like connecting rods and  

 cylinders, it isn't needed for non-critical parts like a portable  

 GPS panel dock or traffic detector that enhance pilot safety.

 See AOPA  Online http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsitems/ 

 2007/070201parts.html ).



 To me, this would seem like pretty much a direct attack on Air gizmos

 for the Garmin handheld docking stations.  I know the 396/496 get

 awfully tempting to substitute in for a certified box.  They must

 be seeing some 337's (or worse....NOT seeing 337's) coming in on

 putting those in certified planes.  They're great boxes, but  

 apparently

 the FAA has their opinion of what they want to see.



 Never thought I'd read that when I woke up today.



 -- 

 Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

 do not archive

james.k.hovis(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:02 am Post subject: Interesting panel-mount handheld GPS comment

When it comes to radio gear, remember you have to deal with another

Fed agency, the FCC. Depending on the radio service and spectrum used,

the FCC requires equipment used, whether a signal reciever like a GPS

unit or a transmitter to be certified to conform to the FCC rules by

the manufacturer, similar to FAA TSO process. If you're a Ham, you can

build your own gear for use in the spectrum allocated to Amatuer Radio

service, but I'm not sure about the Aviation service, whether

build-your-own is allowed. So unless Radio Shack made a transmitter

registered with the FCC for your Trash-80, I doubt you could legally

(FCC-wise, not necessarily FAA) use it.



JKH

On 2/2/07, tadsargent <tadsargent(at)bellsouth.net> wrote:

[quote] 



 I believe experimental means just that.  I could put a TRS80 personal

 computer in the panel if I wanted to use it for navigation or Comm.  I think

 we have much latitude in this respect.  Mounting a GPS on an experimental

 requires no FAA sign off unless you are making major changes to the AC.

 Just a thought.

 Tad Sargent

 7A and helping build a 10A

 ---

apilot2(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:05 am Post subject: Interesting panel-mount handheld GPS comment

The point of the article was TC aircraft, NOT experimental. The mounts

are pretty popular in TC aircraft as well.



On 2/2/07, tadsargent <tadsargent(at)bellsouth.net> wrote:

[quote] 



 I believe experimental means just that.  I could put a TRS80 personal

 computer in the panel if I wanted to use it for navigation or Comm.  I think

 we have much latitude in this respect.  Mounting a GPS on an experimental

 requires no FAA sign off unless you are making major changes to the AC.

 Just a thought.

 Tad Sargent

 7A and helping build a 10A

 ---

deej(at)deej.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:08 am Post subject: Interesting panel-mount handheld GPS comment

greenley(at)starband.net wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I hope that would be a TRS-80 model 100.

 Bill

   


	


    I kinda liked the "White Whale" Model III myself...  *grin



-Dj

do not archive

james.k.hovis(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:33 am Post subject: Interesting panel-mount handheld GPS comment

What it shows is a total lack of practical common sense within the

FAA. Other than a possible increase in electrical load (very MINOR at

that), what else would this affect? Is the structure altered? Doesn't

appear so. Is weight increased? Not really. Is safe aircraft operation

enhanced? I think so. Can the aircraft be brought back to "original

condition" if the installation was removed? Looks like to to me. The

only thing needed for this should be a logbook entry or at the most a

form 337 filing even for TC aircraft.

JKH

On 2/2/07, Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com> wrote:

[quote] 

 The point of the article was TC aircraft, NOT experimental. The mounts

 are pretty popular in TC aircraft as well.

 On 2/2/07, tadsargent <tadsargent(at)bellsouth.net> wrote:

 > 

 >

 > I believe experimental means just that.  I could put a TRS80 personal

 > computer in the panel if I wanted to use it for navigation or Comm.  I

 think

 > we have much latitude in this respect.  Mounting a GPS on an experimental

 > requires no FAA sign off unless you are making major changes to the AC.

 > Just a thought.

 > Tad Sargent

 > 7A and helping build a 10A

 > ---

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:48 am Post subject: Interesting panel-mount handheld GPS comment

The problem is in the definition.  The FAA has allowed PORTABLE devices 

to be used in certified aircraft.  PORTABLE devices do not have to meet 

the FAAs testing and installation guidelines.  When you physically mount 

a PORTABLE device to the airframe, it's no longer PORTABLE, and the FAA 

is re-visiting the wording in this area, since some owners are mounting 

the docking stations etc. to the airframe.  The FAA doesn't see 

hardmounting a docking station and having the GPS (or whatever) 

removeable as meeting the spirit of the interpretation.  At leat that's 

what I hear.

Linn

do not archive

James K Hovis wrote:

[quote] 

 <james.k.hovis(at)gmail.com>

 What it shows is a total lack of practical common sense within the

 FAA. Other than a possible increase in electrical load (very MINOR at

 that), what else would this affect? Is the structure altered? Doesn't

 appear so. Is weight increased? Not really. Is safe aircraft operation

 enhanced? I think so. Can the aircraft be brought back to "original

 condition" if the installation was removed? Looks like to to me. The

 only thing needed for this should be a logbook entry or at the most a

 form 337 filing even for TC aircraft.

 JKH

 On 2/2/07, Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com> wrote:

> 

>

> The point of the article was TC aircraft, NOT experimental. The mounts

> are pretty popular in TC aircraft as well.

>

> On 2/2/07, tadsargent <tadsargent(at)bellsouth.net> wrote:

> > 

> <tadsargent(at)bellsouth.net>

> >

> > I believe experimental means just that.  I could put a TRS80 personal

> > computer in the panel if I wanted to use it for navigation or Comm.  I

> think

> > we have much latitude in this respect.  Mounting a GPS on an 

> experimental

> > requires no FAA sign off unless you are making major changes to the 

> AC.

> > Just a thought.

> > Tad Sargent

> > 7A and helping build a 10A

> > ---

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2881

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:25 am Post subject: Interesting panel-mount handheld GPS comment

When I first saw these things, I was amazed.  It was like magically

reading the minds of the people on how to best put a nice handheld

into a panel.  I didn't even consider putting one in my Sundowner,

because I didn't think I could get it approved.  But, even though

I think for a harcore IFR panel you're best putting the info on

an integrated MFD, I think it's a fantastic option for the homebuilders.

The 496 is an extremely impressive device.  I've even recommended

to my own father that if he builds a plane, he should buy one

of the AirGizmos and do just that...mount a handheld in the plane.

I didn't realize that people would even try to put them in a

certified plane though, although from the comments returned

on this thread already today, I guess I agree...I can't

see why you shouldn't be able to.  I've always just equated

handheld with non-approved and extended non-approved to mean

"can't do in a certified plane".  That's a poor assumption

I guess.

You know, what burns me the most is that if you look at

the GOAL of the FAA, it's generally safety.  And what

could make today's VFR AND IFR planes safer than affordable

ways to get weather data into the panel.  Again, I think if

you're doing a really hardcore IFR panel, you're probably

best off doing an MX-20/MX-200/EX-500/Chelton/OPTech type

thing, because you'll have much better integration than

doing it on a separate box.  But, I would think that even

for people who HAVE some of that stuff, these panel mount

handhelds would be a fantastic solution.  Weather data

in the cockpit IMHO is a minimum requirement type thing.

I wish you luck in your education of the FAA on the issue,

because you've got a great product, that serves a very

useful market niche, and has the potential for adding

a lot of safety to todays aircraft.  The fact that you even did

burn and load testing is a sure sign that you're doing your

share to do it right.  You should shoot an email once in

a while about your product to the list, as you get

significant happenings.  I don't think anyone here would be

offended, but on the contrary, they'd probably love to hear.

Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Michael Schipper wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 I don't normally make posts regarding AirGizmos, but in this case I feel 

 compelled to tell a bit of the story, just so you guys can know.

 AirGizmos is a very small company. I designed the Panel Dock for the 

 Garmin 196 when I was building my RV-9A. It was simply a solution to a 

 problem that I had when designing my panel. I am fortunate to have a 

 friend who is in the plastics industry. We worked together to make 

 something that we could be proud of. It was always intended for 

 experimental use. The business just grew because other builders had the 

 same problem as I did. I have been amazed at the number of positive 

 emails I have received from fellow builders.

 Well, over time it seems that certified owners have noticed the 

 AirGizmos products because they are looking for solutions to the same 

 issues. They want something safer than the yoke-mount contraption 

 they've been using. So, we've worked to have burn tests and load 

 analyses done on the Panel Dock to make it easier for people to get 337s 

 approved. Again, this isn't the market we were targeting, but there is 

 definitely a lot of demand.

 What is really interesting is that this comes down to politics. 

 Apparently the people in the avionics industry are not happy. We've been 

 approached by the leader of one professional organization saying we need 

 to join their association "or else." It felt like extortion to me, so we 

 declined. Well, now we see this story. We have good working 

 relationships with several avionics shops and local FSDOs, and we've 

 provided everything short of a PMA for our products.

 The sad part is that in my opinion the AirGizmos Panel Dock is a good, 

 safe solution. Much safer than the yoke mount for obvious reasons.

 Regards,

 Mike Schipper

 RV-9A - N63MS - www.my9a.com

 RV-10 - #40576 - www.rvten.com

 www.airgizmos.com

 Do not archive

 On Feb 2, 2007, at 6:43 AM, Tim Olson wrote:

> 

>

> I saw this in today's AOPA newsletter:

>

> FAA MAY TAKE AWAY PANEL-MOUNT OPTION FOR PORTABLE GPS

> Think your portable GPS would work great mounted to your old Cessna 

> 172's instrument panel? If the FAA has its way, you won't be able to 

> mount it.

> The parts--panel dock and connective wiring--needed to mount your 

> portable  GPS would either no longer be available or be too expensive 

> to buy. The FAA's proposal would make it illegal for manufacturers to 

> produce a  replacement or modification part if they know (or should 

> know) the part would end up installed in a certified aircraft--that is 

> unless they obtain production approval from the agency. But that costs 

> tens of thousands of  dollars, something many companies can't afford. 

> While AOPA agrees production approval is necessary for critical parts 

> like connecting rods and cylinders, it isn't needed for non-critical 

> parts like a portable GPS panel dock or traffic detector that enhance 

> pilot safety.

> See AOPA  Online 

> http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsitems/2007/070201parts.html ).

>

> To me, this would seem like pretty much a direct attack on Air gizmos

> for the Garmin handheld docking stations.  I know the 396/496 get

> awfully tempting to substitute in for a certified box.  They must

> be seeing some 337's (or worse....NOT seeing 337's) coming in on

> putting those in certified planes.  They're great boxes, but apparently

> the FAA has their opinion of what they want to see.

>

> Never thought I'd read that when I woke up today.

>

> --Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

> do not archive

>

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:58 am Post subject: Interesting panel-mount handheld GPS comment

One of the requirements of a panel mounted GPS (I think) is that it have 

a separate attachment that warns of signal loss (raim?) that is in the 

pilot's view when he scans the instruments.  You do not find that in a 

hand-held GPS.  In fact, your handheld GPS may go TU and you won't 

notice for quite a while ...... when you notice that the GPS airplane is 

parked somewhere far behind you.  Bad news in an IFR environment.  Ranks 

up there with a gyro compass that dies on ya because the vacuum pump failed.

Tim is right .... with the FAA, it's all about safety ...... trying to 

protect us from ourselves and our penchant for taking the 

less-espensive-route (notice I didn't say cheap) and relying on 

something that may just not be fully functional when you need it.



Lets take a handheld radio.  You can buy one for a whole lot less than a 

panel mount, and it'll be as good or better in it's operation.  Even has 

a VOR display!!!  But it's PORTABLE and it runs on batteries.  Batteries 

run down and then it's useless.  Kinda like my AnywhereMap on a trip!  

So you plug it into ships power ...... and the jack fails, or the cable 

fails ..... pick any scenario ..... and now you're stuck.  What do you 

do when your headste mike takes a dump????  Do you have another mic 

plugged in that you can use?  Have you tried your hand mic lately???  

Most die and are never replaced .... and yeah, I'm guilty here too.  I 

feel naked when I can't communicate ..... or navigate .....



And back to your GPS ...... do you regularly tune in your VOR receiver 

to make sure it's still working???  I'll be a lot of you don't.  When 

your GPS croaks, it's a bad time to find out your VOR won't tune or died 

somehow.



Just a few things to think about, and I'm not pointing fingers here 

.... if I get a few folks to really think aboout the complacency thingy 

.... I'm happy.

Linn

do not archive

Tim Olson wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 When I first saw these things, I was amazed.  It was like magically

 reading the minds of the people on how to best put a nice handheld

 into a panel.  I didn't even consider putting one in my Sundowner,

 because I didn't think I could get it approved.  But, even though

 I think for a harcore IFR panel you're best putting the info on

 an integrated MFD, I think it's a fantastic option for the homebuilders.

 The 496 is an extremely impressive device.  I've even recommended

 to my own father that if he builds a plane, he should buy one

 of the AirGizmos and do just that...mount a handheld in the plane.



 I didn't realize that people would even try to put them in a

 certified plane though, although from the comments returned

 on this thread already today, I guess I agree...I can't

 see why you shouldn't be able to.  I've always just equated

 handheld with non-approved and extended non-approved to mean

 "can't do in a certified plane".  That's a poor assumption

 I guess.



 You know, what burns me the most is that if you look at

 the GOAL of the FAA, it's generally safety.  And what

 could make today's VFR AND IFR planes safer than affordable

 ways to get weather data into the panel.  Again, I think if

 you're doing a really hardcore IFR panel, you're probably

 best off doing an MX-20/MX-200/EX-500/Chelton/OPTech type

 thing, because you'll have much better integration than

 doing it on a separate box.  But, I would think that even

 for people who HAVE some of that stuff, these panel mount

 handhelds would be a fantastic solution.  Weather data

 in the cockpit IMHO is a minimum requirement type thing.



 I wish you luck in your education of the FAA on the issue,

 because you've got a great product, that serves a very

 useful market niche, and has the potential for adding

 a lot of safety to todays aircraft.  The fact that you even did

 burn and load testing is a sure sign that you're doing your

 share to do it right.  You should shoot an email once in

 a while about your product to the list, as you get

 significant happenings.  I don't think anyone here would be

 offended, but on the contrary, they'd probably love to hear.

 Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

 do not archive

n8vim(at)arrl.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 10:20 am Post subject: Interesting panel-mount handheld GPS comment

>You do not find that in a hand-held GPS.



I don't know about the others, but my GPSMAP 296 has a white ALARM wire 

that you can hookup to a relay to drive a buzzer, light, or whatever you 

want. The signal activates whenever a message pops up on the display, 

such as "GPS SIGNAL LOST" along with about a hundred other messages.



The signal does work, but curiously there's no mention of that wire in 

my 296 manual.



-Jim 40384



linn Walters wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 One of the requirements of a panel mounted GPS (I think) is that it 

 have a separate attachment that warns of signal loss (raim?) that is 

 in the pilot's view when he scans the instruments.  You do not find 

 that in a hand-held GPS.  In fact, your handheld GPS may go TU and you 

 won't notice for quite a while ...... when you notice that the GPS 

 airplane is parked somewhere far behind you.  Bad news in an IFR 

 environment.  Ranks up there with a gyro compass that dies on ya 

 because the vacuum pump failed.

 Tim is right .... with the FAA, it's all about safety ...... trying to 

 protect us from ourselves and our penchant for taking the 

 less-espensive-route (notice I didn't say cheap) and relying on 

 something that may just not be fully functional when you need it.



 Lets take a handheld radio.  You can buy one for a whole lot less than 

 a panel mount, and it'll be as good or better in it's operation.  Even 

 has a VOR display!!!  But it's PORTABLE and it runs on batteries.  

 Batteries run down and then it's useless.  Kinda like my AnywhereMap 

 on a trip!  So you plug it into ships power ...... and the jack fails, 

 or the cable fails ..... pick any scenario ..... and now you're 

 stuck.  What do you do when your headste mike takes a dump????  Do you 

 have another mic plugged in that you can use?  Have you tried your 

 hand mic lately???  Most die and are never replaced .... and yeah, I'm 

 guilty here too.  I feel naked when I can't communicate ..... or 

 navigate .....



 And back to your GPS ...... do you regularly tune in your VOR receiver 

 to make sure it's still working???  I'll be a lot of you don't.  When 

 your GPS croaks, it's a bad time to find out your VOR won't tune or 

 died somehow.



 Just a few things to think about, and I'm not pointing fingers here 

 ..... if I get a few folks to really think aboout the complacency 

 thingy ..... I'm happy.

 Linn

apilot2(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 10:41 am Post subject: Interesting panel-mount handheld GPS comment

Sure, we can make the cockpit safer...ban all portable electronic

devices, especially game boys, dvd players and Ipods from aircraft

cockpit. Ban cigar lighter receptacles.  Put the TC aircraft pilots

back to VOR, ADF and Loran until they can afford a certified panel

mount GPS. That will really enhance safety.

I see it now, kids in back seat, with "are we there yet" syndrome,

with nothing but crayons and coloring books, "helping" the pilot's

concentration.

While we are at it, might as well ban all the panel mount VFR GPS's

that have the same shortcomings as the portables. Yup, Uncle is here

to protect us from ourselves.



On 2/2/07, linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 One of the requirements of a panel mounted GPS (I think) is that it have

 a separate attachment that warns of signal loss (raim?) that is in the

 pilot's view when he scans the instruments.  You do not find that in a

 hand-held GPS.  In fact, your handheld GPS may go TU and you won't

 notice for quite a while ...... when you notice that the GPS airplane is

 parked somewhere far behind you.  Bad news in an IFR environment.  Ranks

 up there with a gyro compass that dies on ya because the vacuum pump failed.

 Tim is right .... with the FAA, it's all about safety ...... trying to

 protect us from ourselves and our penchant for taking the

 less-espensive-route (notice I didn't say cheap) and relying on

 something that may just not be fully functional when you need it.

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2881

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 11:14 am Post subject: Interesting panel-mount handheld GPS comment

I know it might not have been intended to invoke a laugh

Kelly, but your post reminded me of something...



I consider to be one of the TOP safety devices in my

airplane to be the "ISO" button on my intercom.  You

don't know how many times I've saved myself from a wailing

kid.  My wife and I wish they had those for our cars.



and better yet...  I always carry ear plugs.  No, the kids

don't need them anymore, but one time on final

from a trip, my daughter said "I gotta poop", and since

she was potty training my wife got out the portable kid

toilet and sat her down.  Them ear plug things work well

in the nostrils too, and it can prevent some serious

flight safety issues. 



I'm also not ashamed to admit I always carry one of

those "bottles" with me.  If I'm on an x/c trip to an

unfamiliar airport, after a 4 hours flight, I think

it's a great flight safety enhancer to NOT be thinking

about how bad you want to be on the ground for some

relief.



Yup, it's the little things that count...and having

good quality gear available to the masses can only help...

but ONLY if they use them for their intended purpose.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Kelly McMullen wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Sure, we can make the cockpit safer...ban all portable electronic

 devices, especially game boys, dvd players and Ipods from aircraft

 cockpit. Ban cigar lighter receptacles.  Put the TC aircraft pilots

 back to VOR, ADF and Loran until they can afford a certified panel

 mount GPS. That will really enhance safety.

 I see it now, kids in back seat, with "are we there yet" syndrome,

 with nothing but crayons and coloring books, "helping" the pilot's

 concentration.

 While we are at it, might as well ban all the panel mount VFR GPS's

 that have the same shortcomings as the portables. Yup, Uncle is here

 to protect us from ourselves.

 

 On 2/2/07, linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net> wrote:

> 

>

> One of the requirements of a panel mounted GPS (I think) is that it have

> a separate attachment that warns of signal loss (raim?) that is in the

> pilot's view when he scans the instruments.  You do not find that in a

> hand-held GPS.  In fact, your handheld GPS may go TU and you won't

> notice for quite a while ...... when you notice that the GPS airplane is

> parked somewhere far behind you.  Bad news in an IFR environment.  Ranks

> up there with a gyro compass that dies on ya because the vacuum pump 

> failed.

> Tim is right .... with the FAA, it's all about safety ...... trying to

> protect us from ourselves and our penchant for taking the

> less-espensive-route (notice I didn't say cheap) and relying on

> something that may just not be fully functional when you need it.

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