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jeschmidt(at)hotmail.com
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 Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 5:46 am Post subject: battery update, Bill Dube |
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this is a recent post from the Flyrotary forum; I read it on another
aviation-related list:
Well, I said I was going to do it and we finally got the prototype built.
We just built a 600 cranking amp, 11.5 A-hr, battery that weighs just
3.7 pounds. I've been testing it in my GMC van for the past week here
in the Denver Winter. It snaps the van right over every morning
without a problem. The van cranks faster than it did with the
standard lead-acid battery.
It is smaller than the Odyssey 680 so it fit in the same battery box
with a couple of foam blocks for spacers.
The battery has four status LEDs that tell you the cell balancing
electronics are working OK. We are using A123 Systems M1 cells with
our own custom battery management electronics. The A123 Systems cells
are proven to be the safest Li-Ion cells on the market. No problems
with fires (like laptop cells) because the chemistry they use is
completely different.
The battery can be damaged by running it completely flat (like
leaving the master on) and holding the battery below 8 volts for a
long time. It can also be damaged by charging it over 15.0 volts. It
will likely still function after such abuse, but it won't be nearly
as good as it was originally. If you don't abuse it, it should last
you for many years.
I think we will be in production in about a month, maybe two.
Specs:
3.7 lbs
600 cranking amps
11.5 amp-hr
Approximate maximum dimensions: 3" wide, 5" long, 7" tall (including
terminals)
Charging voltage = 13.8 to 15.0 volts (anywhere in this range is OK)
Nominal voltage = 13.2 volts (Just a touch higher than your typical
lead-acid, so it spins the starter a touch faster.)
Cell cycle life rated at 2000 cycles (80% DOD, 90% capacity
remaining) 10,000 cycles (80% DOD with 50% capacity remaining) (at)25 C
Cell specs:
<http://www.a123systems.com/html/products/ANR26650M1specs.pdf"http://www.a12
3systems.com/html/products/ANR26650M1specs.pdf>http://www.a123systems.com/ht
ml/products/ANR26650M1specs.pdf
Maintenance free
No heavy metals (iron-phosphate type cells)
At this time, we estimate the retail price will be $595. (Yeah, I
know this is not cheap, but this is the state-of-the-art battery
technology so the parts to make it are not cheap.)
Here is a picture of the prototype. We have it in a clear Lexan case
so we can keep an eye on it. The production battery will have a
smaller opaque case with a clear top lid (terminal end.)
http://www.killacycle.com/photos/aircraft-battery/Prototype1InVan.JPG
We have been racing these cells in the KillaCycle for about a year,
so we know _all_ about them.
<http://www.KillaCycle.com"http://www.KillaCycle.com>http://www.KillaCycle.c
om (Be sure to
watch the movie clip.)
We figured that most folks would want a battery that had the cranking
amps to easily spin the starter and would not care much about the a-hrs.
The cost is directly proportional to the amp-hrs. If we were to go to
16 amp-hrs (it's easy to do) the cost would go up to about $850. The
cranking amps would also go up in proportion too. Figure about $1 per
cranking amp, and about $50 per amp-hr and you won't be far off. The
steps are 2.3 a-hr and 120 cranking amp increments. You pick.
This battery REALLY spins the starter in my GMC van. When I turn on
the key in the morning, the battery voltage is typically 13.4 volts
(instead of 12.8 volts.)
Anyone in the Denver area that flies daily interested in flight
testing one of these? You would get to keep the battery and write
anything you want about it (good or bad) as long as it was truthful.
You would have to inspect it before and after each flight including
noting the voltage and the BMS indicator light status. You must sign
the usual liability waiver we are all now accustomed to of course. 
You need to isolate it from over and under voltage as much as you
would your present sealed lead-acid battery. I would suggest a buzzer
connected to a door switch to warn you that you have left the master
on. You should also have a warning light on the panel for over and
under voltage. You should have these already.
Keep in mind that this battery will withstand over and under
voltage. It just "wounds" it much like such mistreatment "wounds"
your present sealed lead-acid battery. This battery will take the
abuse without creating an additional hazard. Other, less safe, types
of Li-Ion batteries will do very bad things (like burst into flames)
if you subject them to abuse.
You wouldn't want to use anything other than a warning
system for over and under voltage. This would cause a hazard greater
than letting the battery "take the abuse". There is no danger in
abusing the battery other than reducing its capacity for later use.
To give you an idea of how tough these batteries are, we
routinely heat these up to 100 C (212 F) in the bike. We routinely
draw 50% more than their rated current. We routinely go below the
minimum voltage (briefly.) We have accidentally over charged some of
these cells. Yet, despite this abuse, we have never had to replace a
single one of the 880 cells in the bike.
These are not the delicate Li-Ion cells that they put in
your laptop or cellphone.
Bill Dube'
bike(at)KillaCycle.com
posted by
John Schmidt
RV 6 slow build
St. Paul, MN
651 776 1717
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dan(at)rvproject.com
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:43 am Post subject: battery update, Bill Dube |
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Bill,
Cool stuff. How about an even smaller one capacity-wise? i.e. what would a
6 amp-hour or so version look like footprint & weight-wise? I ask about
this in the context of providing a backup for a dual electronic ignition
setup.
I keep having this fantasy that in a year or two when I want to replace my
mag with a 2nd Lightspeed, battery technology will hit a point where I can
plop a little RC battery pack sized dealie in there. Essentially negligible
weight & size, full functionality for what I need for. Like I said, a
fantasy...or is it?
)_( Dan
do not archive
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billdube(at)killacycle.co
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:32 pm Post subject: battery update, Bill Dube |
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Sure, smaller is easy. The increments are 2.3 a-hrs and 120 cranking amps.
The cells are 26650 size. That is, they are ~ 26 mm in diameter and
~65 mm long. To make a battery that is nominally 12 volts, we put 4
in series. We them parallel up as many as required to get the amp-hrs
and cranking amps we need.
We weld the tabs on with the cells side-by-side. We leave
them in that configuration for the starting battery we are about to
produce. If you want a slightly different shape, we can "unfold" the
tabs to make some, or all, of the series cells stack end-to-end.
Thus, we can make a battery that is as thin as 1 inch and 11 inches
long, or 2 inches thick and 5 1/2 inches long. The width is set by
the amp-hrs (and cranking amps). For each 2.3 amp-hrs, add another
inch in width.
The cost roughly scales with amp-hrs (and cranking amps)
Bill Dube'
At 07:42 AM 2/8/2007, you wrote:
[quote]
Bill,
Cool stuff. How about an even smaller one capacity-wise? i.e. what
would a 6 amp-hour or so version look like footprint &
weight-wise? I ask about this in the context of providing a backup
for a dual electronic ignition setup.
I keep having this fantasy that in a year or two when I want to
replace my mag with a 2nd Lightspeed, battery technology will hit a
point where I can plop a little RC battery pack sized dealie in
there. Essentially negligible weight & size, full functionality for
what I need for. Like I said, a fantasy...or is it?
)_( Dan
do not archive
---
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billdube(at)killacycle.co
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:38 pm Post subject: battery update, Bill Dube |
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Hi Dan,
A private note.
You fly quite a few hours, and are technically able to take good
data. You also are well-respected in the RV community. Would you be
interested in flight testing one of my batteries? You get a free
battery out of the deal. All you have to do is note the voltage
before and after each flight, note the indicator light status before
and after each flight, and write an honest review. (Good or bad is no
matter as long as it is honest.)
You can run it in your car for awhile first, if you like.
Bill Dube'
2244 Grape St
Denver, CO
80207
303 329-9158
303 497-3933
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rv7(at)b4.ca
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billdube(at)killacycle.co
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 4:15 pm Post subject: battery update, Bill Dube |
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At 04:35 PM 2/8/2007, you wrote:
| Quote: |
Hi Dan,
A private note.
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Meant this to go to Dan, not the list, sorry
Bill D.
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sportav8r(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 7:32 pm Post subject: battery update, Bill Dube |
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It's okay, Bill. We ALL meet your qualifications for beta testing and
we ALL want a free battery to try out for you. Get busy; big
production run going out the door now 
-Stormy
On 2/8/07, Bill Dube <billdube(at)killacycle.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
At 04:35 PM 2/8/2007, you wrote:
>
>
>Hi Dan,
>
> A private note.
Meant this to go to Dan, not the list, sorry
Bill D.
|
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klwerner(at)comcast.net
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 8:51 am Post subject: battery update, Bill Dube |
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Dear Bill,
I like Dan's idea of a scaled down version of your big battery to be used exclusively for E.I. Backup. What would a 4 cell backup battery like this weigh? Rough cost estimate?
Keep up the good work, as you sure are a true experimenter...
Konrad
Do not archive
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