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JOHN TIPTON
Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 239
Location: Torquay - England
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 Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 6:04 am Post subject: Mag & Starter Switches |
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Don't forget you can have a keyed, left right both, and a separate starter
button/switch
John
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frank.hinde(at)hp.com
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| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:20 am Post subject: Mag & Starter Switches |
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Yes the on/off/both keyswitch is a single point of failure for both
ignitions and good redunadancy planning will have you seperating that
function into 2 separate switches.
This is an experimental aircraft there are no requirements for key
lockable systems and insurers don't care, although if I were an insurer
I would want two independent switches.
Frank
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nuckollsr(at)cox.net
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| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:30 am Post subject: Mag & Starter Switches |
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At 05:54 AM 2/12/2007 -0800, you wrote:
| Quote: |
I have noticed that some aircraft use two separate toggle switches for the
magnetos and a pushbutton for the starter, and that some aircraft use an
automobile-like key-operated mag and starter switch.
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Only single engine airplanes. Key-switches are the
brainchild of marketing folks back in the 40s and early
50s that were trying to get the airplane to look as much
as possible like an automobile. Has more to do with
market appeal than convenience or security.
| Quote: | Obviously the toggle/pb arrangement would allow you to use the starter to
turn the engine over with the mags off.
Outside of this, are there any other advantages/disadvantages to one
arrangement over the other?
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Toggles and push buttons are less expensive and fit
on the panel in nice rows with the other switches. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Switch_Panels/Switches.pdf
| Quote: | Given post-9/11 security considerations, do airport operators
prefer/require the key-lockable system?
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Anything with two engines uses switches. Once you're
in the cabin, you've got the airplane. Key-switches
offer very little security. Lost my keys once on a
rental airplane. Broke the wires off the mags by
reaching through the oil filler door. Hand propped
the airplane and brought it home.
| Quote: | Do insurors have an preference?
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If you want a modicum of security, consider this
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/AC_Theft_Protection.jpg
It's out where everyone can see it . . . a thief is
unlikely to work on it out in the open. The locks
on key-switches are exceedingly simple. My kid can
pick one in a minute or so.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
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pilot4pay
Joined: 01 Jan 2007
Posts: 171
Location: Louisville, KY
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| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:43 am Post subject: Mag & Starter Switches |
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Or as in the case of current Cessna's, only 10 or 12 different cylinders in
whole manufactured fleet. Collect 'em all and you can fly any Cessna.(this I
learned from a Cessna sales person).
Effective theft control covers 2 areas of interest. For the aircraft itself
a good prop lock. The heavy chain and padlock is a deterrent only to casual
thieves. A set of bolt cutters will take one off in a couple of seconds.
With battery operated hand tools and grinding wheels only the toughest
bar-type (AKA- the Club) with vending machine type pin tumblers will provide
security in the difficulty in their removal. Of course the weight of the
deterrent becomes an issue when traveling to airports away from home.
Maybe the better tactic here would be an easily removed (yet not commonly
available) part that would prevent the power plant from starting, yet not be
easily figured out by a quick visual. Hidden fuel valves come to mind, but
could lead to disaster to the owner if forgotten, and there is enough fuel
left in the system to taxi/get air born.
The second area of security is your cabin and much cherished avionics.
Certainly a tamper proof locking system will delay entry, but to what
extent? I favor the pin tumblers, but they can be picked as well, it's just
another skill/tool the would be thief needs.
I think a better approach to securing the cabin is hiding the locking
mechanism in an unconventional way. An advantage enjoyed only by the OBAM
group. It doesn't have to be the same one used in flight to hold canopy
closed. Of course if the thief is desperate enough, they will smash the
plexi-glass, but if they still can't get the normal doorway open, getting in
and out is still a big problem.
How and where you park probably matter as much as your hardware. Thieves
want easy in-n-out and concealment of their efforts. Whereas the OBAM
builder thinks in terms of (to quote the omnipotent Bob himself) "$TIME$"
the thief thinks in terms of risk/effort/Time.
Give him a tough puzzle and exposure to discovery.
That brings to mind the recent story of a prop-locked plane stolen in Mexico
right out from under the occupied tower. Sometimes you just can't win.
Craig Smith
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_________________
Craig Smith
CH640 builder
SN: 0078
"Just think how stupid the average person is,
and then realize that half of them are even stupider!"
--George Carlin |
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N6030X(at)DaveMorris.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 2:45 pm Post subject: Mag & Starter Switches |
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Isn't one of the BIGGEST features of the key switch the fact that it
prevents you from trying to start the engine with the non-impulse
coupler magneto activated?
Dave Morris
At 09:30 AM 2/12/2007, you wrote:
| Quote: |
<nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
At 05:54 AM 2/12/2007 -0800, you wrote:
>
>
>I have noticed that some aircraft use two separate toggle switches
>for the magnetos and a pushbutton for the starter, and that some
>aircraft use an automobile-like key-operated mag and starter switch.
Only single engine airplanes. Key-switches are the
brainchild of marketing folks back in the 40s and early
50s that were trying to get the airplane to look as much
as possible like an automobile. Has more to do with
market appeal than convenience or security.
|
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mprather(at)spro.net
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 3:41 pm Post subject: Mag & Starter Switches |
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That feature is fairly easily accomplished with toggle switch controlled
mags and starter switches.
See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Engine/Ignition/TogMagSw.pdf
I believe either of circuits shown does what you're looking for. The
non-impulse magneto is shorted out when the right-hand magneto switch is
in the position which allows energizing the starter contactor.
Regards,
Matt-
| Quote: |
<N6030X(at)DaveMorris.com>
Isn't one of the BIGGEST features of the key switch the fact that it
prevents you from trying to start the engine with the non-impulse
coupler magneto activated?
Dave Morris
At 09:30 AM 2/12/2007, you wrote:
>
><nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
>
>At 05:54 AM 2/12/2007 -0800, you wrote:
>
>>
>> <bdenton(at)bdenton.com>
>>
>>I have noticed that some aircraft use two separate toggle switches
>>for the magnetos and a pushbutton for the starter, and that some
>>aircraft use an automobile-like key-operated mag and starter switch.
>
> Only single engine airplanes. Key-switches are the
> brainchild of marketing folks back in the 40s and early
> 50s that were trying to get the airplane to look as much
> as possible like an automobile. Has more to do with
> market appeal than convenience or security.
|
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nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 3:42 pm Post subject: Mag & Starter Switches |
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At 04:44 PM 2/12/2007 -0600, you wrote:
| Quote: |
Isn't one of the BIGGEST features of the key switch the fact that it
prevents you from trying to start the engine with the non-impulse coupler
magneto activated?
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it can be strapped to do that . . . and you can wire
toggle switches to do the same thing . . . and the
non-keyed dual magneto switch could do it too.
See figure Z-27 of
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11J.pdf
Bob . . .
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