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Engine Running Rough
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esmith6(at)satx.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 5:26 pm Post subject: Engine Running Rough

Please don't all of you shoot me at  once................I have a suggestion for all of you who think your "rough"  engine may be caused by internal problems...Before you spend a lot of time,  labor, and money, I would install new spark plugs, new spark plug wires, and  check the mags if you have mags...(I know almost all of you did this first, but  maybe someone out there didn't?)...Above all, have a Pro. prop shop BALANCE  your PROP while it is on the aircraft.

  

 I thought I had a problem with many of the symptoms  some of you mentioned, then had that rascal prop balanced, and I really  have trouble believing it is the same aircraft, it is sooo smooth, why didn't I  have that done many hours ago...It cut the "worry factor" by at least  60%...........Hope I didn't insult  anyone........................................CHEERS!!!!

  

 Gene Smith

 RV-4

   [quote][b]

w_sweet(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 8:06 pm Post subject: Engine Running Rough

I cannot agree more; this has been exactly my  experience with my MustangII. Particularily aircraft standard spark plugs; seems  a lead fouled plug makes a Lycoming so sick, it runs as if two cylinders went on  vacation.

 With CDI's and auto plugs (why would anyone run  mags and "those plug"), smooth is the operative word. ))

 Wayne

 [quote]   ---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 7:48 am Post subject: Engine Running Rough

The reasons are laid  out, basically for passenger carrying aircraft.  They require  redundancy and separate powered ignition systems that won't go black in the  event of a catastrophic electrical problem.  On the other hand yes there  are some great CDI ignitions that help the engines run better than they were  designed to.  For amateur built aircraft I doubt there is anything  better.

  

  

 

Noel [quote]   

   --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

archie97(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 7:10 pm Post subject: Engine Running Rough

Without bursting bubbles. or offending the  beaurocratic FAA,

 there is nothing better currently for any internal  combustion engine

 than electronic ignition.

 Just try firing a .080 gap plug with a current  magneto.(just one reason)

 Archie Frangoudis

 Archie's Racing Service

 [quote]   ---

w_sweet(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 7:24 pm Post subject: Engine Running Rough

Forgot to mention, dual CDI systems, as in my case,  usually have a small battery charging from the alternator, dedicated solely to  one CDI. In my plane there is a switch that in the event of primary buss failure  (alternator failure is one example), this battery will run the one CDI. I have  lost an alternator 45 minutes outbound from my home base. After turning off all  but the transponder, the main batter still had 12.4 volts after return to home  base and the backup was not needed. If one cannot find an airport in an hour  flight time, then the backup will extend the range beyond a reasonable time. Of  course if a buss were to fail, then the backup would power the CDI, again in my  case for at least two hours. Oh, one other item, mag checks demonstrate that  only one CDI is really needed, since no RPM drop is experienced when one CDI is  turned off. Another checklist item; warn any right-seat pilot that no "mag drop"  does not mean trouble; it means things are working fine.

 Wayne

 [quote]   ---

apilot2(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:50 pm Post subject: Engine Running Rough

Depends on your definition of better. There isn't an electronic

ignition made that will fire without a power source. Lose your

electrics and the engine WILL quit. OK in a car, not okay in a plane.

A magneto provides plenty of voltage to fire the proper gaps for

aircraft plugs at all engine speeds above idle. Bureaucracy has

nothing to do with it. Reliability is the prime issue with aircraft,

and there simply isn't an ignition made that is more reliable than a

pair of magnetos when you consider electrical failure a reasonable

possibility.



On 2/18/07, Archie <archie97(at)earthlink.net> wrote:

[quote]



 Without bursting bubbles. or offending the beaurocratic FAA,

 there is nothing better currently for any internal combustion engine

 than electronic ignition.

 Just try firing a .080 gap plug with a current magneto.(just one reason)

 Archie Frangoudis

 Archie's Racing Service



 ---

grant.piper(at)bigpond.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 12:14 am Post subject: Engine Running Rough

Electronic ignition is OK,but try hand-swinging when the battery is flat or 

the starter is broken!



Also,  if you get no 'mag drop' when running an EI setup, then what is the 

benefit of dual EI?   Why not just keep one mag and have one EI, then there 

is no need for dual busses, the extra complexity and associated weight etc. 

Just my simple  farmer way of thinking of things....



Grant Piper

RV-4 VH-PIO

---

archie97(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 4:48 am Post subject: Engine Running Rough

With all due respect to your commentary, sir, I knew

some replies would come from traditionalists, and I concur

with your statements..

I will not deal with the semantics associated with such,

but suffice it to simply say read my original message carefully.

If people did not forward think in automotive, we would all

still be driving model "T"'s.

End.

Archie Frangoudis

Archie's Racing Service



---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 5:06 am Post subject: Engine Running Rough

The answer from the FAA I'll  bet would be something like try firing a .018 plug with a CDI that has no  power supply.

  

 The best answer is of course  one magneto and one CDI.  That would give you a limp home mode in case of a  problem with the CDI.  BTW has anyone ever heard of a problem with a CDI  while in use???  I haven't.

 

Noel [quote]   

   --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

jrccea(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 5:48 am Post subject: Engine Running Rough

No.  But, I've had total power failures on two  occasions.....

 Was grateful for mags at the time.

 I also fly a non-electric cub a good bit of the  time, and think that might present a problem for CDI.

 [quote]   BTW    has anyone ever heard of a problem with a CDI while in use???  I    haven't.

   

Noel[b]

apilot2(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:13 am Post subject: Engine Running Rough

Yeah, right. I was using CD ignition on a car 35 years ago(and it

failed within 2 years). Show me an electronic ignition that is self

powered and stone reliable and I'll come over to your side. So far,

the automotive technology that has proven superior for aircraft, sum

total, will fit in a C-150. Porsche tried and failed. Dozens have

tried the aluminum Chevy, and failed. VW, Corvair, Subaru...all niche

curiosities that haven't made it to mainstream. Face it. There isn't

an electronic ignition that passes the dead battery test. Until that

is possible, you are just bandaiding around the problem with dual

buses and other backups.



On 2/19/07, Archie <archie97(at)earthlink.net> wrote:

[quote] 



 With all due respect to your commentary, sir, I knew

 some replies would come from traditionalists, and I concur

 with your statements..

 I will not deal with the semantics associated with such,

 but suffice it to simply say read my original message carefully.

 If people did not forward think in automotive, we would all

 still be driving model "T"'s.

 End.

 Archie Frangoudis

 Archie's Racing Service



 ---

apilot2(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:14 am Post subject: Engine Running Rough

Yes. I had one on my car years ago. It flat failed and left me

stranded. Something inside the box fried.



On 2/19/07, Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca> wrote:

[quote]



 The answer from the FAA I'll bet would be something like try firing a .018

 plug with a CDI that has no power supply.



 The best answer is of course one magneto and one CDI.  That would give you a

 limp home mode in case of a problem with the CDI.  BTW has anyone ever heard

 of a problem with a CDI while in use???  I haven't.



 Noel

 --

w_sweet(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:20 am Post subject: Engine Running Rough

I had one mag and one CDI once and it worked OK. But that means keeping 

those inferior aircraft plugs clean and replacing at ~$20 each. WHY? My auto 

plugs cost $2.50 each and are replaced every 75 hours or so. Never gap the 

plugs; why bother at those prices. Also, the power is somewhat better with 

two CDI according to Klaus Savior of LSE. I cannot confirm that.

For those that have never sat behind a Lycoming running CDI's, if you do get 

a chance someday, ask the owner for a ride. The smoothness of the engine 

will surprise you.

Wayne



---

w_sweet(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:21 am Post subject: Engine Running Rough

See my previous post.

Wayne



---

w_sweet(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:14 am Post subject: Engine Running Rough

You are confusing CDI's of today with 35 years ago. First, cars 35 years ago 

were junk compared to cars of today. All cars today have electronic ignition 

systems; i.e. CDI's.

Also the only failures I have had with alternators in my MustangII were from 

wire terminal failures, partly my fault for not supporting the B-wire or the 

field wire close the terminal. In 6000  hours of flying "store bought" 

airplanes only had one failure (at night in a Cardinal) that cause a 

complete electrical failure. If that were to happen in my plane, I would 

still be flying 2 hours after the failure because of the backup battery. 

BTW, I had a mag go south because of points coming apart after only 24 hours 

in service; the maintenance facility that overhauled the mag said, "That 

happens sometimes". WHAT!!! REALLY!!!!

Lessons learned 35 years ago no longer apply today.

Wayne



---

Hopperdhh(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:24 am Post subject: Engine Running Rough

You will find that very few production cars today have Capacitor Discharge Ignition systems.  Most systems are still inductive discharge switched by a transistor.  (Transistors come in several forms including Bipolar, FET and IGBT.)  This system is much simpler and more reliable than a CDI system.  CDI systems are used for competition engines, though.

  

 Dan Hopper

 RV-7A

 15 years associated with ignition design for GM including Indy CDI systems.

  [quote][b]

mlas(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:50 am Post subject: Engine Running Rough

So what should I do with my Airbus 320?  It needs electric to run as do

all the new fadec powered jet engine systems.  They hide this by

providing internal generators, kind of sound a little like the magneto

concept.  But it's not!



Mike



--

mlas(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:58 am Post subject: Engine Running Rough

Well, that's why airplanes have TWO ignition systems....  If you fly

long enough you too will have a mag. failure.  I have had more than 12

mags. fail, fortunately not at the same time.



Mike



Lancair Legacy w/dual LSE Plasma III ignitions and dual independent

buses "boy it's smooth; I know it will be smoother when they quit. Ant

the fuel specifics are good too."



--

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:53 am Post subject: Engine Running Rough

That would qualify as a problem  with a CDI in use for me.

  

 What would you think of having  one CDI and one back up magneto?  Possibly using different  plugs.

  

  

 

Noel [quote]   

   --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

MONTY(at)bpaengines.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:59 am Post subject: Engine Running Rough

NASCAR runs some type of EI.  I have noticed 2 ea. MSD units in some of the TV shots.  Do you reckon there is a reason for that ?  I know they are not using 2 sparkplugs per chamber.  

Monty Barrett  

   

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