Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing)

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing)

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> RV10-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

james.s.clark(at)comcast.
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:56 pm Post subject: IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing)

Linn, I like the idea on the panel. I'd be interested in hearing more  

about your panel choices.

Tim, sorry for the confusion: no I don't plan to borrow all 150k, but  

for budgeting I think it is good to plan for the lost earnings that  

those dollars could be used for if not tied up in an aircraft (or toy).

I am interested in cost savings though: Specifically, if an IFR RV-10  

is a must (even if using steam gauges), what is the lowest reasonable  

target figure? I find it very hard to come in at <130. But I have  

heard several say lower. What am I missing?

I have heard the following suggestions which I like very much:

Don't paint right away. -Jesse, how does this change if stored outside?

Store RV-10 outside (ouch, I don't know if I can live with this). How  

well will an RV-10 endure VA weather with covers? If I know up front  

it will be stored outside, any special priming areas I should consider?

Save money on engine - don't get new (with conflicting ideas on how  

much this saves) - various posters

Buy steam gauges for first panel (but still IFR), wait to go glass  

IFR for later if mission/desires dictate. Try to keep panel  

instruments from first panel revision, useful for 2nd panel down the  

road. - Linn

Go slow build to save...-various

John, thanks for your thoughts. I appreciate the comparison with the  

Archer and like Jesse's idea about fewer wasted pit stops.

Bill, thanks for your comparison of the archer. I would be interested  

if you have any numbers on how much savings can be expected in the  

maintenance. What would be your yearly numbers for each?

What would others consider a minimalist RV-10 IFR panel?

Thanks for all your help,

Best regards,

Jim Clark

On Feb 20, 2007, at 4:45 PM, linn Walters wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   James, It's really hard to compare a new RV-10 with a '76 Archer.   

 If you do, the $150K for the comparable RV-10 is way too high .....  

 mostly because of the panel comparison.  The Archer has older  

 radios and steam gauges ..... and they can be had comparably cheap  

 on the used market.  I think 100K is a more reasonable figure for  

 the -10 unless you get really wild with glass panel and avionics.   

 There's also the auto-pilot in the Archer (if it has one) Vs. a new  

 GPSS compatible autopilot in the -10.  You also need to consider  

 your mission ..... how you fly.  When I started gathering info on  

 the -10, I looked at a full glass-panel and IFR capable GPS and  

 autopilot.  I've now backed off and am considering an 'Archer  

 panel' and will build the fancy one ..... IF MY MISSION REQUIRES  

 IT. Almost all the stuff in the simple panel will be used in a  

 fancy panel .... with the exception of a few guages.

 You also have to balance your time spent building the RV-10 (which  

 is going to be much faster) Vs. the slower Archer .... again, a  

 mission thingy.  I didn't look at all the costs .... because I know  

 nothing of either the Archer or the RV-10.  There is also some  

 value of being able to install just about anything 'new' in your  

 RV-10 without having to worry about expensive STCs and 337s ......  

 which you'll need to get the Archer to the level of the RV-10.

 Sorry I didn't answer your question, but I hope I gave you  

 something to ponder .... as if you really needed it!!!

 Linn

 James S. Clark IV wrote:

> I would appreciate hearing peoples comments on the following   

> comparison (archer vs RV10). Don't start laughing yet 

> I am doing this for budgetary planning purposes against something   

> that I am familiar with.

> I would like to know if people think some of these numbers are  

> off  the mark.

> I know people will scream these planes are not even in the same   

> category (mostly in speed, newness, & avionics). Otherwise both  

> are 4  seaters, with only slightly different useful loads.

> I know people will say its not the aircraft its the buy/build   

> decision, but honestly I would enjoy either process.

>

> The following assumptions are used:

> I am convinced I would LOVE building, not just flying. We do have  

> the  time/patience to build.

> Financing for loan payments (forced home refi due to balloon  

> payment  coming due - 6.25% 30 year fixed with cash out to  

> purchase 1/2 of  aircraft):

> Shared ownership/building with each owner purchasing half

> $4 fuel / gallon

> Insurance for low time IFR pilot (250 total hours, only 30 complex  

> in  a mooney).

> 200 total hours / year on aircraft (~100 per owner)

>

> RV-10:

> Total Loan Amount $150,000

> Total loan payment per month: $924

> Hanger / month: %330 a must to protect all the hard work

> Gallons / hour: 12

> Cruise Speed: 165 knots

> Useful Load: 1180

> Seats: 4

> Insurance / year: $5000???

> Maintenance / year: 1000 parts, free labor??

> Fuel Cost / year: 9600

> Total / year: 30,642

> Total / month: $2554

> Total / individual / month: 1277

> Cost per flight hour: 153

> Available: 3 years from now (but with fun experience of building)

> Features: NEW everything, owner KNOWs aircraft inside & out

>

> 1976 Used Piper Archer II

> Total Loan Amount 65k

> Total loan payment per month: $400

> Tiedown / month: 85 (tiedown ok for used plane)

> Gallons / hour: 10

> Cruise Speed: 120 knots

> Useful Load: 1008

> Seats: 4

> Insurance / year: 2500???

> Maintenance / year: 3000 parts/labor

> Fuel Cost / year: 8000

> Total / year: 19322

> Total / month: 1610

> Total / individual / month: 805

> Cost per flight hour: 97

> Available: 2 weeks

> Features: Used, average paint, IFR ready now, dull and boring  

> (not  much owner maintenance)

>

> Do these look like reasonable numbers? Do the monthly operations   

> costs seem right?

> I have attached a spreadsheet so those who want to change my  

> numbers  may do so. I'd appreciate a copy back of your ideas if  

> you think my  numbers should be changed. Especially the insurance  

> figures. What is  everyone else paying for insurance with various  

> numbers of piloting  hours. Also attached is an updated RV10  

> budget including many of the  hidden costs offered up by list  

> members (others still yet to be  included).

>

> Thanks in advance,

> Jim Clark

> -Trying to figure out how to win the lottery...cowering in   

> expectation of responses to my questions...

>

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:42 pm Post subject: IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing)

The minimalist panel is not IFR it is VFR as VAN designed with steam

gages. Stay away from induction and control surface icing and get the

most out of a minimalist budget. Save panel real estate for the point in

time you have the amended perspective. You will be quite pleased.  The

only big change since it was first introduced is the inflation rate

applied , by VAN to the kit components and the drying up of used IO-540

cores as VAN had originally budgeted.  Randy used a reconditioned prop

and there has been little discussion on the value of that route.



Know your mission, do not sell yourself short.



John Cox

#40600

--

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:04 pm Post subject: IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing)

I will reply below.  

Jesse Saint  

Saint Aviation, Inc.  

jesse(at)saintaviation.com  

www.saintaviation.com  

Cell: 352-427-0285  

Fax: 815-377-3694  

--

james.s.clark(at)comcast.
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:14 pm Post subject: IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing)

John,

I'm not sure I followed everything in your post, or how it was meant to apply to me.



Just to clear things up: I am not interested in a minimalist VFR panel. I will build an IFR plane or I will buy an IFR TC aircraft. I am trying to budget these options with some detail.



My mission is quite clear to me: End up with a 4 seat IFR platform that I can use for several years (it doesn't have to be the top of the line or my final configuration for the first few years). This platform may have steam gauges (archer or other) or electronic flight instruments or glass flight instruments (RV10).



My question was intended to get people's ideas on a reasonable minimal cost IFR panel for the RV10. It seems that roughly no matter how I cut it: Quickbuild + Shipping + New Engine +FWF = 100k. Avionics + Finishing is where I have choices and drastically different costs.



For example one possible IFR option:

2 GRT EFIS 1 + EIS

8000B audio panel

GNS480

DigiFlight-IIVSGV

SL30 NavCom

GTX327

ADI, Alt, AS, Compass



The above adds roughly 33k. The remainder in the spreadsheet version 3 I have sent out seem to come to 14k more (including some nice hidden costs that Anh sent out)



Naturally, I will do everything within my power and budget not to "sell myself short".



Best regards,

Jim Clark

-Still learning the ropes...

On Feb 20, 2007, at 9:39 PM, John W. Cox wrote:

[quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com (johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com)>

The minimalist panel is not IFR it is VFR as VAN designed with steam

gages. Stay away from induction and control surface icing and get the

most out of a minimalist budget. Save panel real estate for the point in

time you have the amended perspective. You will be quite pleased.  The

only big change since it was first introduced is the inflation rate

applied , by VAN to the kit components and the drying up of used IO-540

cores as VAN had originally budgeted.  Randy used a reconditioned prop

and there has been little discussion on the value of that route.

Know your mission, do not sell yourself short.

John Cox

#40600





--

bob.kaufmann(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 9:18 pm Post subject: IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing)

Jim  

   

You are adding unnecessary expenses by wanting more than a good IFR platform..  Price out Dual grand rapids efis, SL30, 300 xl the Gtx 327, drop down in quality to Maybe a 1000II audio, and a lesser auto pilot and you will save a lot of money, and you will have a certified IFR aircraft, that is better than what’s in every DC-8 or 707 in the world.  

   

2 cents worth  

   

Bob K  

Panel and fiberglass and wires and oxygen system and a few rivets now and then just to keep in practice.  

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of James S. Clark IV

 Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 7:13 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing)  

  

   

John,    

   

    

I'm not sure I followed everything in your post, or how it was meant to apply to me.  

    

   

    

Just to clear things up: I am not interested in a minimalist VFR panel. I will build an IFR plane or I will buy an IFR TC aircraft. I am trying to budget these options with some detail.  

    

   

    

My mission is quite clear to me: End up with a 4 seat IFR platform that I can use for several years (it doesn't have to be the top of the line or my final configuration for the first few years). This platform may have steam gauges (archer or other) or electronic flight instruments or glass flight instruments (RV10).  

    

   

    

My question was intended to get people's ideas on a reasonable minimal cost IFR panel for the RV10. It seems that roughly no matter how I cut it: Quickbuild + Shipping + New Engine +FWF = 100k. Avionics + Finishing is where I have choices and drastically different costs.  

    

   

    

For example one possible IFR option:  

    

2 GRT EFIS 1 + EIS  

    

8000B audio panel  

    

GNS480  

    

DigiFlight-IIVSGV  

    

SL30 NavCom  

    

GTX327  

    

ADI, Alt, AS, Compass  

    

   

    

The above adds roughly 33k. The remainder in the spreadsheet version 3 I have sent out seem to come to 14k more (including some nice hidden costs that Anh sent out)  

    

   

    

Naturally, I will do everything within my power and budget not to "sell myself short".  

    

   

    

Best regards,  

    

Jim Clark  

    

-Still learning the ropes...  

    

   

    

       

On Feb 20, 2007, at 9:39 PM, John W. Cox wrote:  

  



 

     

--> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com (johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com)>  

    

   

    

The minimalist panel is not IFR it is VFR as VAN designed with steam  

    

gages. Stay away from induction and control surface icing and get the  

    

most out of a minimalist budget. Save panel real estate for the point in  

    

time you have the amended perspective. You will be quite pleased. The  

    

only big change since it was first introduced is the inflation rate  

    

applied , by VAN to the kit components and the drying up of used IO-540  

    

cores as VAN had originally budgeted. Randy used a reconditioned prop  

    

and there has been little discussion on the value of that route.  

    

   

    

Know your mission, do not sell yourself short.  

    

   

    

John Cox  

    

#40600  

    

   

    

   

    

--

ddddsp1(at)juno.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:44 pm Post subject: IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing)

Jim, 

Try to find someone already flying that did what you are trying to do.  They are out there.  Also, one has to be willing to buy other brands INSTEAD of GARMIN/KING if you wanna truly cuts costs.  For example,  A nice Garmin 496 is roughly $3500?   There are other GPS units that will fit your bill for $1000.  SAVINGS = $2500     Also, a Garmin SL30 is $3250?  A new Icom 200 and a yellow tagged Nav radio can be had for $2250. SAVINGS = $1000.  I would love the greatest and latest from Garmin too, but I choose not to pay their PREMIUM price  versus other Avionics that do what I need.  I flew a Cherokee 140 all day yesterday.............the newest thing in the IFR panel was a pair of KING 155's.  The owner was a happy pilot,,,,,,,,buy to meet your needs and your budget........... NOT to impress your friends and fellow pilots! 

  

Dean 40449 



________________________________________________________________________

 FREE Reminder Service - NEW from AmericanGreetings.com

 Click HERE and never forget a Birthday or Anniversary again!

    [quote][b]

glastar(at)gmx.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:31 am Post subject: IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing)

Hello Dean and Jim



I only partly agree on that, I did go the cheap route with a KX-125 and 

a KN75 first, then had to add a KI-106 for glideslope. Then the KX 

failed shortly after 2 years, they did charge me $1200.- to fix it. The 

whole setup was much more expensive then if I had gone with am SL-30 

straight ahead (you find them used to (but seldom)). The SL-30 has many 

nice features like 2nd com listen mode, cross reference tracking of 2nd 

NAV and you can have the display of the glideslop on any Dynon EFIS.



I swapped meanwhile the King stuff with an SL-30 and I did not regret, 

except that I would have saved a lot of money going that route from the 

start.



br Werner



ddddsp1(at)juno.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Jim,



 Try to find someone already flying that did what you are trying to 

 do.  They are out there.  Also, one has to be willing to buy other 

 brands INSTEAD of GARMIN/KING if you wanna truly cuts costs.  For 

 example,  A nice Garmin 496 is roughly $3500?   There are other GPS 

 units that will fit your bill for $1000.  SAVINGS = $2500     Also, a 

 Garmin SL30 is $3250?  A new Icom 200 and a yellow tagged Nav radio 

 can be had for $2250. SAVINGS = $1000.  I would love the greatest and 

 latest from Garmin too, but I choose not to pay their PREMIUM price  

 versus other Avionics that do what I need.  I flew a Cherokee 140 all 

 day yesterday..............the newest thing in the IFR panel was a 

 pair of KING 155's.  The owner was a happy pilot,,,,,,,,buy to meet 

 your needs and your budget............ NOT to impress your friends and 

 fellow pilots!



  



 Dean 40449



 ________________________________________________________________________

 *FREE* Reminder Service - *NEW* from AmericanGreetings.com

 Click *HERE* and never forget a Birthday or Anniversary again! 

 <http://track.juno.com/s/lc?s=197335&u=http://www.americangreetings.com/products/online_calendar.pd?c=uol5752>

 *

 *

dav1111(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 3:31 am Post subject: IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing)

James, if you compare the cost of going with a single  Horizon I Grand Rapids MFD & EIS (PFD, Moving Map WASS GPS, and Graphics  Engine Monitor) and a GRT Sport with built in WASS GPS to round gauges and duel  GPS systems you will find that glass is as cheap as round gauges.  With the  duel system GRT system above you have a complete IFR backup system.  The  single screen HORIZON I with it's own AHRS gives you all three systems in case  the Sport fails and the Sport with the EIS gives you all three systems in case  the Horizon I fails.

  

 Add an SL40 and to the system and you have an ILS/VOR to  back up the duel GPS nav system.

  

 Having said the above, the bottom line is that by the time  you have a slow build RV-10 ready to make a panel decision all your planning as  to what system you install could change.

  

 The decision to go with a 30 year old Spam Can vs. a new  RV-10 comes down to whether or not you want a state of the art airplane vs.  something that will get you from point A to point B as cheap as  possible.

  

 It is like deciding to go with a new car or go buy a 10  year old car.  The ten year old car will also get you from point A to point  B but will do it a lot cheaper, at least for a few years.  Who knows  whether or not over 10 years the maintenance costs of the ten year old car will  exceed the differences in the up front purchase price of the new car.   Likewise you don't really know what the maintenance costs of ownership of a  30 year old spam can will be in comparison to the out of pocket expenses to  maintain your own RV-10.

  

 Best regards,

  

 Russ Daves

 RV-10 - First Flight 07/28/06

  

 DO NOT ARCHIVE  

    [quote][b]

apilot2(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 4:44 am Post subject: IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing)

One does have to be judicious in your choices. The King 145 and 125

were their low end products, which can be observed by their weak power

output and lack of features. A used KX155 or one of the finest radios

spurned by the market is the Narco MK12D+. Equivalent to a King 165 at

thousands less. The SL30 is a fine unit, because Garmin didn't design

it. If you can only afford one radio, it would be my choice for a new

radio. If you want separate units, the Narco and an Icom will save you

money over most other combinations.

On 2/21/07, Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Hello Dean and Jim

 I only partly agree on that, I did go the cheap route with a KX-125 and

 a KN75 first, then had to add a KI-106 for glideslope. Then the KX

 failed shortly after 2 years, they did charge me $1200.- to fix it. The

 whole setup was much more expensive then if I had gone with am SL-30

 straight ahead (you find them used to (but seldom)). The SL-30 has many

 nice features like 2nd com listen mode, cross reference tracking of 2nd

 NAV and you can have the display of the glideslop on any Dynon EFIS.

 I swapped meanwhile the King stuff with an SL-30 and I did not regret,

 except that I would have saved a lot of money going that route from the

 start.

 br Werner

 ddddsp1(at)juno.com wrote:

 >

 > Jim,

 >

 > Try to find someone already flying that did what you are trying to

 > do.  They are out there.  Also, one has to be willing to buy other

 > brands INSTEAD of GARMIN/KING if you wanna truly cuts costs.  For

 > example,  A nice Garmin 496 is roughly $3500?   There are other GPS

 > units that will fit your bill for $1000.  SAVINGS = $2500     Also, a

 > Garmin SL30 is $3250?  A new Icom 200 and a yellow tagged Nav radio

 > can be had for $2250. SAVINGS = $1000.  I would love the greatest and

 > latest from Garmin too, but I choose not to pay their PREMIUM price

 > versus other Avionics that do what I need.  I flew a Cherokee 140 all

 > day yesterday..............the newest thing in the IFR panel was a

 > pair of KING 155's.  The owner was a happy pilot,,,,,,,,buy to meet

 > your needs and your budget............ NOT to impress your friends and

 > fellow pilots!

 >

 >

 >

 > Dean 40449

 >

 >

 >

 > ________________________________________________________________________

 > *FREE* Reminder Service - *NEW* from AmericanGreetings.com

 > Click *HERE* and never forget a Birthday or Anniversary again!

 > <http://track.juno.com/s/lc?s=197335&u=http://www.americangreetings.com/products/online_calendar.pd?c=uol5752>

 > *

 >

 >

 > *

GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:29 am Post subject: IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing)

In a message dated 2/21/07 1:47:30 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  ddddsp1(at)juno.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     

Jim,   

Try to find someone already flying that did what you are trying to    do.  They are out there.  Also, one has to be willing to buy other    brands INSTEAD of GARMIN/KING if you wanna truly cuts costs.  For    example,  A nice Garmin 496 is roughly $3500?    	
  

 If you're going to build an IFR panel, I don't think you should budget a  handheld as part of your cost in the plane as it's not "installed" equipment,  but should be a portable device for situational awareness.  I know it will  be a cost but I'd not like to consider it as part of the panel expense.   I'd think of the portable like a head set just my flying cost not my plane  cost.  

  

 JA Air has reconditioned IFR GPS units from time to time and they are  a bit off of original list priced equipment, some dealers will  discount equipment on the panel if they do your entire panel.  

  

 We have a 300xl in the 235, my avionic shop still quotes installing them  for $7k plus...one can buy this unit on e bay for $2500-3,000...it's a nice  basic unit, will get you to the center of any airport, VOR, waypoint,  etc., and you can do the GPS's and overlay's etc. There are  other basic IFR GPS units out there that will work well and may not cost near as  much as the top Garmin units but you'll generally get what you pay  for..  

  

 Please note that not all approaches are in the 300xl series either...all  the GPS's are but not all of the other approaches as are in the 400/500  series.  Even if you had two 300xl units installed, I'd still want a  VOR with a GS as I don't think the ILS's and VOR approaches are going  away that quickly.  If I was going to build a panel inexpensively and  wanted IFR..I'd do a 300xl with two VOR's at least one with a GS and maybe  both with GS's, I like the KX 155 radio's we have also as our second comm/nav  but there are lots of choices on radios/transponders etc.  Plus I'd make  room for the 496 somewhere near by!  

  

 Patrick

  

 do not archive



 [b]Check out free AOL  [quote][b]

Nick Nafsinger

Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 9
Location: Houston

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:28 am Post subject: IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing)

I agree with everything except…. I’d combine the 300xl and a VOR and find a used 430.   If you look around they can usually be found for 4-4500.  Yes a little more than a 300, but it combines space and IMO has better situational awareness.  

   

FWIW  

   

Nick Nafsinger  

   

   

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com

 Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 8:26 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing)  

  

     

In a message dated 2/21/07 1:47:30 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, ddddsp1(at)juno.com writes:  

   	  Quote: 	
		    

Jim,  

Try to find someone already flying that did what you are trying to do.  They are out there.  Also, one has to be willing to buy other brands INSTEAD of GARMIN/KING if you wanna truly cuts costs.  For example,  A nice Garmin 496 is roughly $3500?     	
    

   

    

If you're going to build an IFR panel, I don't think you should budget a handheld as part of your cost in the plane as it's not "installed" equipment, but should be a portable device for situational awareness.  I know it will be a cost but I'd not like to consider it as part of the panel expense.  I'd think of the portable like a head set just my flying cost not my plane cost.    

    

   

    

JA Air has reconditioned IFR GPS units from time to time and they are a bit off of original list priced equipment, some dealers will discount equipment on the panel if they do your entire panel.    

    

   

    

We have a 300xl in the 235, my avionic shop still quotes installing them for $7k plus...one can buy this unit on e bay for $2500-3,000...it's a nice basic unit, will get you to the center of any airport, VOR, waypoint, etc., and you can do the GPS's and overlay's etc. There are other basic IFR GPS units out there that will work well and may not cost near as much as the top Garmin units but you'll generally get what you pay for..    

    

   

    

Please note that not all approaches are in the 300xl series either...all the GPS's are but not all of the other approaches as are in the 400/500 series.  Even if you had two 300xl units installed, I'd still want a VOR with a GS as I don't think the ILS's and VOR approaches are going away that quickly.  If I was going to build a panel inexpensively and wanted IFR..I'd do a 300xl with two VOR's at least one with a GS and maybe both with GS's, I like the KX 155 radio's we have also as our second comm/nav but there are lots of choices on radios/transponders etc.  Plus I'd make room for the 496 somewhere near by!    

    

   

    

Patrick  

    

   

    

do not archive  

  



 

 

 

         

  

Check out free AOL    	  Quote: 	
		    http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List 	
0 	  Quote: 	
		   	
1 	  Quote: 	
		   	
2 	  Quote: 	
		   	
3 	  Quote: 	
		   	
4

  

     

  

--

 2/20/2007 1:44 PM

  

  

--

 2/20/2007 1:44 PM

     [quote][b]

_________________
RV-10 40569
Flying!

indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:39 am Post subject: IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing)

I am in a particular spot in my building process which has provided me with 

a certain perspective on all this and many of the builders I am sure have 

felt what I am going through at one time or another.



All the planning on the panel costs and other anticipated costs are good and 

a wise thing to do. It is my thought however, that if you are really nit 

picking the costs to such a degree, than I might take a look at exactly why 

you are thinking of building the Rv in the first place. Is it all about 

cutting costs? It is a lot like building a home. It is always more expensive 

than first imagined.



All I am suggesting is that there is a lot of time, a lot of effort and 

money from the time you start to the actual time when you get to start 

putting in the panel. If it has been a life long dream to build your own 

plane, then no matter how much it costs, go for it. If you are doing to cut 

costs, I might suggest that it is much like putting a nice steak into one 

end of the meat grinder. You know the meat will come out the other end, but 

it might not be what you expected coming out the other end. It is a beast of 

a project. It is not difficult work, and a lot of it fun for the most part, 

just time consuming and very difficult alongside life's other 

responsibilties, unless you have a lot of free time.



My two cents. Emotional cents.



JOhn G.

[quote]From: "bob.kaufmann" <bob.kaufmann(at)cox.net>

Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: RE: IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing)

Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:17:39 -0800



Jim



You are adding unnecessary expenses by wanting more than a good IFR

platform..  Price out Dual grand rapids efis, SL30, 300 xl the Gtx 327, 

drop

down in quality to Maybe a 1000II audio, and a lesser auto pilot and you

will save a lot of money, and you will have a certified IFR aircraft, that

is better than what's in every DC-8 or 707 in the world.



2 cents worth



Bob K



Panel and fiberglass and wires and oxygen system and a few rivets now and

then just to keep in practice.



   _____



From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com

[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of James S. Clark 

IV

Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 7:13 PM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing)



John,



I'm not sure I followed everything in your post, or how it was meant to

apply to me.



Just to clear things up: I am not interested in a minimalist VFR panel. I

will build an IFR plane or I will buy an IFR TC aircraft. I am trying to

budget these options with some detail.



My mission is quite clear to me: End up with a 4 seat IFR platform that I

can use for several years (it doesn't have to be the top of the line or my

final configuration for the first few years). This platform may have steam

gauges (archer or other) or electronic flight instruments or glass flight

instruments (RV10).



My question was intended to get people's ideas on a reasonable minimal cost

IFR panel for the RV10. It seems that roughly no matter how I cut it:

Quickbuild + Shipping + New Engine +FWF = 100k. Avionics + Finishing is

where I have choices and drastically different costs.



For example one possible IFR option:



2 GRT EFIS 1 + EIS



8000B audio panel



GNS480



DigiFlight-IIVSGV



SL30 NavCom



GTX327



ADI, Alt, AS, Compass



The above adds roughly 33k. The remainder in the spreadsheet version 3 I

have sent out seem to come to 14k more (including some nice hidden costs

that Anh sent out)



Naturally, I will do everything within my power and budget not to "sell

myself short".



Best regards,



Jim Clark



-Still learning the ropes...



On Feb 20, 2007, at 9:39 PM, John W. Cox wrote:






The minimalist panel is not IFR it is VFR as VAN designed with steam



gages. Stay away from induction and control surface icing and get the



most out of a minimalist budget. Save panel real estate for the point in



time you have the amended perspective. You will be quite pleased. The



only big change since it was first introduced is the inflation rate



applied , by VAN to the kit components and the drying up of used IO-540



cores as VAN had originally budgeted. Randy used a reconditioned prop



and there has been little discussion on the value of that route.



Know your mission, do not sell yourself short.



John Cox



#40600



--

GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:32 am Post subject: IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing)

Nick couldn't agree  more...for a few $$ the 430 is so much more capable but I thought the ideas was  "budget" IFR...with the amount of time to plan...it seems that there will lots  of newer and more interesting products coming on the market place...Is  TruTrak coming along with their EFIS?  As Kelly pointed out there are many  radio's to select along with audio panels/transponders/little monitors for the  rear seats!  

  

 When it comes to  "toy's" I'm a cash sort of guy.

  

  

 P

 ________________________

  

 I agree with everything  exceptâ€¦. Iâ€™d combine the 300xl and a VOR and find a used 430.   If you  look around they can usually be found for 4-4500.  Yes a little more than a  300, but it combines space and IMO has better situational  awareness.

  	  Quote: 	
		     

    

FWIW   

    

Nick    Nafsinger 	
  



[b]Ched security tools, millions of free high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and much more.

  [quote][b]

Deems Davis

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 925

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:15 am Post subject: IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing)

This thread seems to be more about saving money than building an 

airplane. If finances are that big of an issue in Jim's decision process 

(as they seem to be). This issue will continue to raise it's ugly head 

throughout a long and sometimes stressful process. And not just on 

avionics issues, which is the current fixation, but on virtually every 

item that Van's does not supply in the kit (at least 70% of the total 

airplane finished cost for which you will have several options to select 

from). I would hope that after investing the considerable amount of time 

(not just in building, but in researching, learning, etc) Jim will want 

for yourself an airplane that he can be proud of, one that will echo the 

pride and workmanship of those that have already been completed as a 

part of the -10 fleet. Starting off cutting corners is not a good way to 

begin IMO. My advice would be to seriously consider whether he can 

reasonably allow for more financial headroom, as I can promise that it 

will be needed. If not, go for the Archer and save the building until a 

time in  life where if better fits with  work/life situation.

I speak from experience having started (but not finished) 2 kits earlier 

in life when job, family and finances were different. I got into an IFR 

Arrow on a partnership, then worked my way into owning a Bonanza, and 

then traded up into several other TC aircraft. I'm now in a situation 

that the stars and moon are all aligned and I'm able to complete my 

postponed dream of build my own plane. You NEED a LOT of PASSION and 

desire to do this as it's a LONG journey. The statistics suggest that 

the majority of builders that begin a project do not finish  it. 

Finances are the leading reason for abandoning a project.



Deems Davis # 406

Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )

http://deemsrv10.com/

 



John Gonzalez wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I am in a particular spot in my building process which has provided me 

 with a certain perspective on all this and many of the builders I am 

 sure have felt what I am going through at one time or another.



 All the planning on the panel costs and other anticipated costs are 

 good and a wise thing to do. It is my thought however, that if you are 

 really nit picking the costs to such a degree, than I might take a 

 look at exactly why you are thinking of building the Rv in the first 

 place. Is it all about cutting costs?

CJohnston(at)popsound.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:24 am Post subject: IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing)

You could do what I did….  

   

First, you figure out how much the aircraft will cost to build, then file that paper away.  Go blindly forth buying and building, and file away the receipts.  Don’t calculate your costs EVER during the build.  This will only make you unhappy.  Don’t try to figure out why you seem to be over budget (using only mental calculations), this will also make you unhappy.  Try to save money on things, and be proud when you do.  Don’t think about the fact that you’ve bought an extra fuse side skin, 4 extra trim tabs, all the parts necessary for a new baggage door (because you couldn’t live with a 1/8” gap), a new battery tray (because you countersunk the wrong side when you were building), the countless single switches from Mouser.com that you buy to evaluate the coolness factor (and that end up in the “switches” box in the “airplane room”)…. I’ll cut myself off here because I could go on for awhile remembering parts that I’ve screwed up and/or bought and not used….  Anyway, also don’t mind the total and complete deconstruction of the “what expensive is” portion of your brain.  This drives up the cost of an airplane.  For example:  I’m at the supermarket, looking at cheese.  The Kraft cheese is $3.00, the fancy cheese is $5.50.  You look at it and think, “well, why not…after all, it’s not like it’s a $41,000 engine or anything, and we deserve it for that hard weekend of building that we put in!”  After awhile, the extra $1.50 for cheese turns into leather seats with seat-heaters.  It’s only a couple thousand more, and it’ll be soooo nice!  This condition should not be confused with the “well, I’ll only build one, so I better make it exactly as neato as I want” condition.  This is the condition whereby you start building an airplane with a budget and a plan, and then as the aircraft starts to become real, suddenly (or not so suddenly) you decide that you only want the best for your baby.  This starting to sound familiar to anyone out there?  yep.  It does to me.  Also I’m a low time pilot who doesn’t have a plane already, and I have to make time to fly.  In my area, an IFR 172 that you’d actually want to fly in IFR conditions runs $130 (wet) an hour.  Oh, and I hadn’t budgeted on the cost to get my instrument rating.  Expensive.    

   

Yep.  And I’m happy as a clam.  Eventually I’ll run out of parts or money, and hopefully both at the same time!  for me, I was never much of a bean counter, and I’m enjoying the process.  One day, I’ll figure out how much it cost me in dollars, and it’ll seem like a bargain for how much I’ve gotten back in experience.  Corny, but true.  And I’m not even flying yet.  

   

cj  

#40410  

fuse  

www.perfectlygoodairplane.net  

   

--

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2881

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:38 am Post subject: IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing)

Chris, you and Deems just posted 2 great posts IMHO that I really

like. They basically reflect what I feel.  You hit the nail on the

head when you described just building it like you know you'll want it.

When I started out, I thought an RV-10 for $110,000-125,000 was

going to be a good target.  Turns out I was way off.  Yes, I know

that's controllable, but had I been on a strict budget, I would

have ended up being a very unhappy person, who would have had

to sell his RV-10, or live with a plane that wouldn't *really* be

what I wanted.   The RV-10 has more potential for "creep" in the price

than any other RV, due to it's size, capability, amount of fiberglass,

and options.  Not being aware of the potential is a dangerous thing,

which I why I first started that "options" page in my Tips area

of my site...so people could see what options are there that may

not be included.



In the end, I honestly ended up with less than $1,000 in the bank

the day I flew my RV-10 for the first time.  It's been even

a harder struggle to increase the bank funds since I've finished it

than when I was building, because now I am flying it and having

those expenses.  For every builder, you're going to actually have

*thousands* of dollars in expense just getting through your flyoff

period, so just keep that in mind.



I pretty much think that this is some of the best advice for someone

jumping into the RV-10 project:



 From Scott Lewis RV-10 40172 VH-DRS:



"When working out how much a project is going to cost, write down how 

much you think, then double it . . . .

  then throw the paper in the bin and just keep spending money until its 

finished!!"



This says nothing that limits the builder, or that forces them to

spend more on fancy stuff that they don't want or need.  It just

gives them a quick reality check on how vague the final cost may

be.  I would bet that not one RV-10 builder could come in within

$1,000 of their initial expected cost, even if they planned out

every conceivable expense.



It might be well-approached this way:  Plan for $175,000.  If your

dreams are more conservative, and your efficiency is good, you

should be able to *easily* build an RV-10 for that price.  Many will

come in well under that price and be pleasantly surprised.  A few

will go over, but those who do are probably not the ones worried

about $2000 differentials in the costs of various avionics choices,

or other options.



We've been through this exercise in the past though, and the further

people are along in their build, the more they tend to view $150K

as being a good modest target for their RV-10, so I wouldn't go

into it planning on any less than that...even though it can be done.



All just opinion, but it's nice to be wary.  I've said it before:

It's great to see people interested in such a fine plane, but I'd

rather see everyone who starts one, finish one....not end up

emailing the list later about how "Due to changes.....<snip>...I've

been forced to sell...".



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Chris Johnston wrote:

[quote] You could do what I did….

 

  

 

 First, you figure out how much the aircraft will cost to build, then 

 file that paper away.  Go blindly forth buying and building, and file 

 away the receipts.  Don’t calculate your costs EVER during the build.  

 This will only make you unhappy.  Don’t try to figure out why you seem 

 to be over budget (using only mental calculations), this will also make 

 you unhappy.  Try to save money on things, and be proud when you do. 

  Don’t think about the fact that you’ve bought an extra fuse side skin, 

 4 extra trim tabs, all the parts necessary for a new baggage door 

 (because you couldn’t live with a 1/8” gap), a new battery tray (because 

 you countersunk the wrong side when you were building), the countless 

 single switches from Mouser.com that you buy to evaluate the coolness 

 factor (and that end up in the “switches” box in the “airplane room”)…. 

 I’ll cut myself off here because I could go on for awhile remembering 

 parts that I’ve screwed up and/or bought and not used….  Anyway, also 

 don’t mind the total and complete deconstruction of the “what expensive 

 is” portion of your brain.  This drives up the cost of an airplane.  For 

 example:  I’m at the supermarket, looking at cheese.  The Kraft cheese 

 is $3.00, the fancy cheese is $5.50.  You look at it and think, “well, 

 why not…after all, it’s not like it’s a $41,000 engine or anything, and 

 we deserve it for that hard weekend of building that we put in!”  After 

 awhile, the extra $1.50 for cheese turns into leather seats with 

 seat-heaters.  It’s only a couple thousand more, and it’ll be soooo 

 nice!  This condition should not be confused with the “well, I’ll only 

 build one, so I better make it exactly as neato as I want” condition.  

 This is the condition whereby you start building an airplane with a 

 budget and a plan, and then as the aircraft starts to become real, 

 suddenly (or not so suddenly) you decide that you only want the best for 

 your baby.  This starting to sound familiar to anyone out there?  yep.  

 It does to me.  Also I’m a low time pilot who doesn’t have a plane 

 already, and I have to make time to fly.  In my area, an IFR 172 that 

 you’d actually want to fly in IFR conditions runs $130 (wet) an hour. 

  Oh, and I hadn’t budgeted on the cost to get my instrument rating.  

 Expensive. 

 

  

 

 Yep.  And I’m happy as a clam.  Eventually I’ll run out of parts or 

 money, and hopefully both at the same time!  for me, I was never much of 

 a bean counter, and I’m enjoying the process.  One day, I’ll figure out 

 how much it cost me in dollars, and it’ll seem like a bargain for how 

 much I’ve gotten back in experience.  Corny, but true.  And I’m not even 

 flying yet.

 

  

 

 cj

 

 #40410

 

 fuse

 

 www.perfectlygoodairplane.net

 

  

 

 --

DAVELEIKAM(at)wi.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:18 am Post subject: IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing)

I will echo Chris on this.  I am doing pretty  much what he is as far as not paying too much attention to the nickels and dimes  and even dollars.  I know what I can afford without thinking too  hard.  I have a file I put all the receipts in, but I haven't added  anything up yet.  Think of what you spend on the little stuff each day  before you built your plane.  One of the very reasons I chose to build  is that it doesn't hurt so bad to pay as you go. I look for deals  too.  I looked at our credit card charges the other day with my wife  and was amazed at the spending on the thing.  We live off our card, barley  ever write checks.  But most things are those everyday life things for home  and kids.  (And an occasional part from Gretz.)  But we always pay the  thing off each month. (Excessive dept is another story.)  In the beginning  I thought about how my plane would rank compared to other builders as far as  style and options and technique.  Then I realized this is My Plane, for  me and my family.  I will build it how I want.  As long as it is  safe, and I fly it safe, and I am happy with it, nothing else matters.   There is no wrong way to build a plane which is safe to fly when  completed.  If a person wants a basic VFR or IFR panel and likes it who  cares?  More power to them for making the journey at all.  All I  wanted was a two seat Ran's folding wing plane on floats.  then my wife  said we had to have four seats.

  

 Dave Leikam

 40496

 [quote]   ---

jchang10

Joined: 05 Jul 2006
Posts: 227

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 2:51 pm Post subject: IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing)

I could not have said it any better than what Chris,  Dave and Tim have already stated. I am following that same path. All I know  about my spending so far, is that my receipt folder is getting quite thick. With  it squished down, it's exactly 0.5" thick! 

  

 The other thing motivating me forward, is that aviation  is only getting more expensive with time. The cost of building a plane today  will seem like a bargain compared to the cost of doing the same several years  from now. The cost of flying will certainly only ever increase over time.  

  

 However, even with that said, I still have no idea when  i will finish. i more or less have no control over something i do in my spare  time. However, at least, i can say that i have it started!  

  

 Jae

 do not archive

<![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]><![endif]>[quote] [b]

_________________
#40533 RV-10
First flight 10/19/2011
Phase 1 Done 11/26/2011

jjessen

Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 285
Location: OR

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 3:30 pm Post subject: IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing)

This is one part of my life where I don't think too  much about the money.  It's not that I  don't think about it, of course I do, but to me this is a legacy to my  son.  My wife and I put both kids through private high school (ugh) and  spendy colleges (oh, my goodness, ugh).  I'll not be able to retire like  many of you, but at least I'll leave a few items to leave behind.  One will  be this plane, a couple houses, etc.  And when I go, as the great line in  Ocean's 12, I believe it was, I want the last check I write to  bounce.  

  

 So....I'm having a  good time building.  I will have a good, but not great IFR panel.  I  will get my IFR rating and learn how to fly much, much better than I know  today.  And, if we have a world that will still allow it, I'll fly the ever  loving stuffing out of her before they yank my medical.   

  

 John Jessen<![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]><![endif]>

    #328

  [quote][b]

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> RV10-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum