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dav1111(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:33 am Post subject: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR

Nice panel. I have a stupid question, if you're flying  along in solid 

       IMC

      and all of a sudden one of your EFIS says  you're turning right and the 

       other

      says you're turning left, on which one  do you bet your  life?

 

      

       Bruce

      www.glasair.org

  

 You immediately turn on your autopilot which is  independent of the GRT EFIS and after the autopilot levels the airplane you turn  off the bad EFIS.

  

 Russ Daves

 N710RV - First Flight 7/28/06

 



    [quote][b]

Bruce(at)glasair.org
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:37 am Post subject: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR

Now that's  scary!

  

  

 

Bruce

www.glasair.org

   [quote]   

   --

jjessen

Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 285
Location: OR

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:44 am Post subject: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR

Guys.  We the uninitiated, need to know why something  is scary or why something is cool.  Thanks.  

  

 John Jessen

   RV-10 emp



   From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce  Gray

Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 7:33 AM

To:  rv-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Glass for IFRGlass for  IFR

 

 Now that's  scary!

  

  

 

Bruce

www.glasair.org

   [quote]   

   --

LloydDR(at)wernerco.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:01 am Post subject: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR

This is also how I have it setup in my plane, if there is a  conflict between the Chelton and the Dynon, Engage the sorcerer and turn off the  offending equipment.

 Dan

 N289DT



   From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Russell  Daves

Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 8:31 AM

To:  rv-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Glass for IFRGlass for  IFR

 

 Nice panel. I have a stupid question, if you're flying  along in solid 

       IMC

      and all of a sudden one of your EFIS says  you're turning right and the 

       other

      says you're turning left, on which one  do you bet your  life?

 

      

       Bruce

      www.glasair.org

  

 You immediately turn on your autopilot which is  independent of the GRT EFIS and after the autopilot levels the airplane you turn  off the bad EFIS.

  

 Russ Daves

 N710RV - First Flight 7/28/06

 



[quote]



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com



[b]

LloydDR(at)wernerco.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:03 am Post subject: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR

Why is triple redundancy scary? You would also have the  virtual panel in a hand held GPS as a 4th backup.

 Just how far do you want to take it? You can spend as much  or as little as you want.

 Dan

 N289DT



   From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce  Gray

Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 10:33 AM

To:  rv-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Glass for IFRGlass for  IFR

 

 Now that's  scary!

  

  

 

Bruce

www.glasair.org

   [quote]   

   --

sbuc(at)hiwaay.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:29 am Post subject: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR

Bruce Gray wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Now that's scary!


	


If I was flying in IMC with my dual-glass plane and there was a 

conflict, I wouldn't have to worry about turning on the autopilot.



It would have already been on since entering IMC.



With the new solid-state coupled autopilots, I don't see a need for much 

hand flying in IMC. Seems the FAA has *finally* come around to a similar 

position as it pertains to IFR training and their new emphasis on 

teaching autopilot operation.



Sam Buchanan



============================

[quote]  

  

 

 Bruce

 www.glasair.org

   

 

 --

Bruce(at)glasair.org
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:47 am Post subject: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR

Have any of  you thought of the alternator frying and in the process burning out the battery  contactor and opps, no electro wizzies. Flip all the dead switches you want, no  joy. Is there a reason why every certified installation of an EFIS in a GA  airplane has a Vacuum Attitude Indicator, ASI, and Altimeter as the  backup?

  

 Wait you say,  I have a duel bus/battery power distribution system and that won't happen. It's  happened. The last one I read about was an Airbus loosing all, and I mean ALL,  power in the the cockpit. Total dark panel. The only thing left was that little  2.5 inch backup Jet Attitude Gyro and a flashlight. (as an asside, what's the  reboot time for your EFIS systems if you have an electrical hiccup? Can you fly  without it for 3-4 minutes, IMC, in turblance?)

  

 Or, you're  flying along in solid IMC and the cockpit starts filling with smoke. Smells like  an electrical fire but no breakers have tripped. What do you do? Kill the master  switch? But you need the EFIS to keep the right side up. Keep the electrical  system operable and hope you can get on the ground before something more serious  happens?

  

 Think  these equipment decisions through with care, your life is dependant on  it.

  

  

 

Bruce

www.glasair.org

   [quote]   

   --

Bruce(at)glasair.org
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:50 am Post subject: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR

I think the FAA emphasis is on reducing pilot workload and using all

available tools to do so. What would you do in your airplane if you had an

electrical fire?



Bruce

www.glasair.org

 



--

bo124rs(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:03 am Post subject: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org>


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

Now that's scary!




	




I on the other hand see that as comforting.  My glass setup has just that 

style autopilot redundancy.  IMC, there ya go George, fly on.

Dana Overall

Richmond, KY i39

RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic"

O 360 A1A, C/S C2YK-1BF/F7666A4

http://rvflying.tripod.com/blackwing1.jpg

http://rvflying.tripod.com

do not archive



_________________________________________________________________

Don’t miss your chance to WIN 10 hours of private jet travel from Microsoft®

dmaib@me.com

Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 455
Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:39 am Post subject: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR

I would make an emergency descent and land ASAP. Glass or steam gauge. I will have at least once source of attitude reference that is completely independent of the airplane electrical system. It will not be vacuum.

David Maib

40559

QB wings



On Feb 27, 2007, at 11:49 AM, Bruce Gray wrote:

--> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org (Bruce(at)glasair.org)>

I think the FAA emphasis is on reducing pilot workload and using all

available tools to do so. What would you do in your airplane if you had an

electrical fire?

Bruce

www.glasair.org





--

_________________
David Maib
RV-10 #40559
New Smyrna Beach, FL

sportav8r(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:40 am Post subject: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR

On 2/27/07, Bruce Gray <Bruce(at)glasair.org> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I think the FAA emphasis is on reducing pilot workload and using all

 available tools to do so. What would you do in your airplane if you had an

 electrical fire?

>

Bruce
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   www.glasair.org


	


I'd radio my final instructions to my next of kin: get a mean lawyer

and sue the ever-loving stuffin's out of the companies that

manufactured the fuses and wire in the plane, because that simply

cannot occur unless _they_ made a _big_ mistake.



Actually, I'd roll over and go back to sleep, knowing I was dreaming,

since electrical fires don't happen in properly designed and built

cockpits, for the reason given above.  But I might worry a little

that, once asleep again, I'd return to dreaming about "dark and stormy

night" scenarios.  It's more likely I'd have dreams about vacuum

system failures, because they are much more likely.



Put another way, Bruce, I think if your question was posed on the

AeroElectric list, you'd eventually hear that your time could be

better spent worrying about a prop bolt failure than about the

disastrous failure of a properly-designed and built electrical system

in an OBAM aircraft, given the statistical likelihood of each.  I

believe Bob N. is right about that.  You are welcome to differ, but

"please bring data."



-Stormy



who has "no problem" with triple-redundancy; it's good in avionics and

it's good in DC power distribution 



Drink the KoolAid, Bruce   Resistance is futile.



Actually, it's volts/amperes, but that's not important right now...

khorton01(at)rogers.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:41 am Post subject: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR

On Tue, 27 Feb 2007 07:31:22 -0600

"Russell Daves" <dav1111(at)cox.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Nice panel. I have a stupid question, if you're flying along in solid 

       IMC

       and all of a sudden one of your EFIS says you're turning right and the 

       other

       says you're turning left, on which one do you bet your life?

  

       

       Bruce

       www.glasair.org

 

 You immediately turn on your autopilot which is independent of the GRT EFIS and after the autopilot levels the airplane you turn off the bad EFIS.

 


	


If you are counting on this plan to work, you might want to see how well your autopilot handles when you engage it during an unusual attitude.  Maybe it'll do OK, but I suspect it won't do so well from anything more than minor unusual attitudes.  If your autopilot isn't up to the task, it is better to find that out on a nice blue sky day than to make this discovery after you end up in an unusual attitude due to an EFIS that has lost its way.



Kevin Horton

jjessen

Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 285
Location: OR

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:41 am Post subject: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR

Bruce, these are good points, but we do have all electric  GA IFR aircraft being built.  I believe the Columbia is one such, with full  redundancy.  Perhaps many builders are not including the full redundancy,  and that is something to consider.  But, I think it's fair to say that GA  manufacturers are trying hard to get vacuum out of their lexicon.  >From  their website:  

  

 Redundant Electrical  Systems - Other modern aircraft advertise being “all-electric”, however the dual  electrical systems on Columbia aircraft are fully-redundant. The critical  difference between dual and redundant is that many aircraft with dual electrical  systems have a lesser back-up electric system that cannot operate all standard  systems. Consequently, the pilot is forced to make critical decisions to shed  power, pull breakers and/or run a partial panel. The second electrical system on  Columbia aircraft is a fully redundant system equal in every way to the other  system. Thus either electrical system on a Columbia aircraft can start the  aircraft and run all standard systems independent of the other electrical  system. Dual 60 amp alternators, dual 15 amp hour batteries, dual busses and  dual wiring harnesses ensure that an electrical emergency will not force the  pilot to shed power, pull breakers, turn off critical standard systems or fly a  partial panel in the event of an electrical emergency. Safety by Design - Not by  Default.



   From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce  Gray

Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 9:46 AM

To:  rv-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Glass for IFRGlass for  IFR

 

 Have any of  you thought of the alternator frying and in the process burning out the battery  contactor and opps, no electro wizzies. Flip all the dead switches you want, no  joy. Is there a reason why every certified installation of an EFIS in a GA  airplane has a Vacuum Attitude Indicator, ASI, and Altimeter as the  backup?

  

 Wait you say,  I have a duel bus/battery power distribution system and that won't happen. It's  happened. The last one I read about was an Airbus loosing all, and I mean ALL,  power in the the cockpit. Total dark panel. The only thing left was that little  2.5 inch backup Jet Attitude Gyro and a flashlight. (as an asside, what's the  reboot time for your EFIS systems if you have an electrical hiccup? Can you fly  without it for 3-4 minutes, IMC, in turblance?)

  

 Or, you're  flying along in solid IMC and the cockpit starts filling with smoke. Smells like  an electrical fire but no breakers have tripped. What do you do? Kill the master  switch? But you need the EFIS to keep the right side up. Keep the electrical  system operable and hope you can get on the ground before something more serious  happens?

  

 Think  these equipment decisions through with care, your life is dependant on  it.

  

  

 

Bruce

www.glasair.org

   [quote]   

   --

LloydDR(at)wernerco.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:45 am Post subject: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR

The way you respond to this is that my engine is  electrically dependant so I can not kill the master, but I do have redundant  busses and I can kill the avionics buss. My dynon is battery powered, the  496 is battery powered, and so is the portable Icom radio. So I can still stay  up right, navigate, and communicate. The engine is on the e-buss and so is  the prop controller, and will last more than 1 hour on this battery, which can  be parallel, prior in the circuit to the avionics master, with the other  battery to extend the flight if necassary. Other than that we get into sky is  falling routine and if you are that paranoid you should not be flying single  engine IFR in the first place.

 IMHO

 Dan

 N289DT 



   From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce  Gray

Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 12:46 PM

To:  rv-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Glass for IFRGlass for  IFR

 

 Have any of  you thought of the alternator frying and in the process burning out the battery  contactor and opps, no electro wizzies. Flip all the dead switches you want, no  joy. Is there a reason why every certified installation of an EFIS in a GA  airplane has a Vacuum Attitude Indicator, ASI, and Altimeter as the  backup?

  

 Wait you say,  I have a duel bus/battery power distribution system and that won't happen. It's  happened. The last one I read about was an Airbus loosing all, and I mean ALL,  power in the the cockpit. Total dark panel. The only thing left was that little  2.5 inch backup Jet Attitude Gyro and a flashlight. (as an asside, what's the  reboot time for your EFIS systems if you have an electrical hiccup? Can you fly  without it for 3-4 minutes, IMC, in turblance?)

  

 Or, you're  flying along in solid IMC and the cockpit starts filling with smoke. Smells like  an electrical fire but no breakers have tripped. What do you do? Kill the master  switch? But you need the EFIS to keep the right side up. Keep the electrical  system operable and hope you can get on the ground before something more serious  happens?

  

 Think  these equipment decisions through with care, your life is dependant on  it.

  

  

 

Bruce

www.glasair.org

   [quote]   

   --

bo124rs(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:46 am Post subject: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org>


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  Or, you're flying along in solid IMC and the cockpit starts filling with

smoke. Smells like an electrical fire but no breakers have tripped. What do

you do? Kill the master switch? But you need the EFIS to keep the right 

side

up.


	




Uh, rely on the internal Dynon backup battery............................

Dana Overall

Richmond, KY i39

RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic"

O 360 A1A, C/S C2YK-1BF/F7666A4

http://rvflying.tripod.com/blackwing1.jpg

http://rvflying.tripod.com

do not archive



_________________________________________________________________

The average US Credit Score is 675. The cost to see yours: $0 by Experian. 

http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=660600&bcd=EMAILFOOTERAVERAGE

dan(at)rvproject.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:15 am Post subject: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR

Anybody else have a Garmin handheld with their "simulated panel" interface? 

It's actually pretty darn reliable!  Definitely hope I never have to rely on 

that, but at a minimum it can be an additional data point in the scan.



do not archive

)_( Dan



---

rocketbob(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:21 pm Post subject: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR

You know, it never ceases to amaze me how complicated the average RV builder nowadays can make their airplane.  Dual, triple, quadruple EFIS'es, dual batteries, dual alternators, etc.  I once asked a guy who had such stuff in his airplane what he was supposed to do if the main battery shorted, and how you would isolate it.  The response I got was, well you pull this breaker, no wait, that's not right, you pull this one, then, ummm pull this one.  I think...  Hmmm...  To see panel bling in an RV with a fixed-pitch prop boggles my mind even more!  



As Dan has pointed out,  the Garmin simulated panel works amazingly well.  A Garmin 396 is as close to an EFIS as I will ever need in any airplane I build, along with old school no-bling round instruments.  Just my $.02.  I'll have less $$ in my F1 than many RV builders have in their panel alone, with just as much panel functionality.  Gotta put my kids thru college someday. 



Regards,

Bob Japundza

RV-6 flying F1 under const.

do not archive



  [quote][b]

Bruce(at)glasair.org
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:40 pm Post subject: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR

Right on, if  you can't fly your airplane with the master switch off, you're not doing  something right.

  

  

 

Bruce

www.glasair.org

   [quote]   

   --

jpl(at)showpage.org
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:07 pm Post subject: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR

I think some bling makes sense.  Because these are experimental  

aircraft, I think some sort of engine monitor is a pretty good idea.   

If you're going to do that, then something like dual-Dynons seems a  

pretty logical choice.  You end up with a very pleasant panel to fly  

at a fairly reasonable cost.



A lot of us really don't want to put vacuum instruments into our  

panel.  Vacuum pumps fail.  But I have *never* had an automobile  

alternator fail, nor the associated equipment.  I don't even take  

particularly good care of my cars, and my current car has 170k miles  

on it and is 12 years old.



Something to wonder -- what is the cost of a vacuum pump as compared  

to a second (small) alternator and related goodies?  Is swapping out  

that alternator for a backup electrical system really adding anything  

to the cost?  I don't know, as i haven't priced it.



If the guy you talked to didn't know how to isolate his battery, that  

means he didn't have things labeled clearly.  It doesn't indicate a  

flaw in the overall plan so much as a detail to consider.  It's a  

good question and one that any pilot should be able to answer before  

hitting Start.



My panel will be such that a single failure in the clouds leaves me  

enough system to find an airport.



-Joe



On Feb 27, 2007, at 2:21 PM, Bob J. wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   You know, it never ceases to amaze me how complicated the average  

 RV builder nowadays can make their airplane.  Dual, triple,  

 quadruple EFIS'es, dual batteries, dual alternators, etc.  I once  

 asked a guy who had such stuff in his airplane what he was supposed  

 to do if the main battery shorted, and how you would isolate it.   

 The response I got was, well you pull this breaker, no wait, that's  

 not right, you pull this one, then, ummm pull this one.  I  

 think...  Hmmm...  To see panel bling in an RV with a fixed-pitch  

 prop boggles my mind even more!



 As Dan has pointed out,  the Garmin simulated panel works amazingly  

 well.  A Garmin 396 is as close to an EFIS as I will ever need in  

 any airplane I build, along with old school no-bling round  

 instruments.  Just my $.02.  I'll have less $$ in my F1 than many  

 RV builders have in their panel alone, with just as much panel  

 functionality.  Gotta put my kids thru college someday.



 Regards,

 Bob Japundza

 RV-6 flying F1 under const.

 do not archive

sbuc(at)hiwaay.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:33 pm Post subject: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR

Bruce Gray wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 I think the FAA emphasis is on reducing pilot workload and using all

 available tools to do so. What would you do in your airplane if you had an

 electrical fire?

 Bruce

 www.glasair.org

This is a different question than the one you first posed.

You first asked "if you're flying along in solid IMC and all of a sudden 

one of your EFIS says you're turning right and the other says you're 

turning left, on which one do you bet your life?"

In my opinion the replies about letting the autopilot break the tie are 

valid.

But you have now raised a different, unrelated question concerning an 

electrical fire. Granted, ANY fire while airborne is potentially deadly 

and one of our worse fears. But, with good wiring architecture the odds 

of an electrical fire are very low, probably much lower than the odds I 

will wad up the plane in a landing accident.

What does concern me greatly, however, is how many pilots think they can 

hand fly their RVs in the crud on partial panel (airspeed, altimeter, 

turn coordinator) while being stressed out with an inflight emergency. I 

think the chances of surviving that scenario are very low but the odds 

can be greatly improved by providing redundant, independent electrical 

flight instruments (EFIS, autopilot, etc) that have the capability of 

providing quality flight info.

Sam Buchanan

[quote] 

 Bruce Gray wrote:

> Now that's scary!

 If I was flying in IMC with my dual-glass plane and there was a 

 conflict, I wouldn't have to worry about turning on the autopilot.

 It would have already been on since entering IMC.

 With the new solid-state coupled autopilots, I don't see a need for much 

 hand flying in IMC. Seems the FAA has *finally* come around to a similar 

 position as it pertains to IFR training and their new emphasis on 

 teaching autopilot operation.

 Sam Buchanan

 ============================

>  

>  

>

> Bruce

> www.glasair.org

>   

>

> --

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