Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - IFR RV-10 / Bahamas Flight

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

IFR RV-10 / Bahamas Flight

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> RV10-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

sschmidt(at)ussynthetic.c
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 3:59 pm Post subject: IFR RV-10 / Bahamas Flight

Well, I just finished flying some good hard IFR last week in the -10.  My wife and I packed up our bags and left Salt Lake City for the Bahamas.  Once we hit Texas I flew IFR all the way to the Bahamas.  No big storms just low ceilings and clouds at all levels.  The RV-10 did awesome and the Cheltons were amazing.  I really learned how to quickly modify my flight plan on the Cheltons. I still do have some issues with the altitude wandering from the Chelton and there is a little bit of side to side motion from the Cheltons as well.  I would typically let the Cheltons handle the lateral steering and just let the Digiflight handle the altitude.  That Digiflight autopilot is great.  Out of Jasper TX.  I had ceilings at 500 feet and didn't break until 4500 feet.  I just took off, hit the autopilot button with a 800 fpm climb with my assigned heading of 090 and it did a great job.  I could not be happier.  I would have loved to have inflight weather but can't decide which way to go. 

 

You can get away without many of the extras but the Digiflight linked with IFR GPS would be a great way to go and it wouldn't break the bank. 

 

Unfortunately, we arrived in the Bahamas on Saturday night and received a call within 20 minutes of checking into our hotel that her dad who had been fighting cancer over the last year took a turn for the worse.  I put her on a flight first thing Sunday morning and I left Freeport at noon on Sunday and headed to Fort Peirce for customs. Then I left Fort Peirce IFR up the east side of Florida and was vectored right over the Cape Canaveral and Daytona Raceway and cruised in between some big storms.  I then landed at Albany Georgia for fuel and then flew to Layfette Louisiania for the night.  The next morning I flew to Burnet TX for fuel, then Sante Fe for fuel, then home to Salt Lake City.  The RV-10 is a great cross country machine.  From Salt Lake to the Bahamas in less than 36 hours including 10 hours of sleep, dinner, and breakfast at Layfette.  Fortunately I landed in Salt Lake City at 6:30pm and was able to be there when my father-in-law passed away with all of us by his side Monday night.  He was also a pilot and luckily was able to fly in the RV-10 before he passed away.

 

So make sure you all have fun this weekend and take a flight for Randy!  He will be greatly missed! 

http://www.legacy.com/saltlaketribune/Obituaries.asp?Page=LifeStory&PersonID=86653425

 

-Scott Schmidt

N104XP

ajhauter(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 10:51 pm Post subject: IFR RV-10 / Bahamas Flight

Scott,



Thanks for the update, always exciting to hear about rventures.



Just a thought about the Cheltons--  I recall Tim saying the Pinpoint doesn't use gps inputs for its navigation solution.  He seemed to view this as a positive in case your gps feeds get blocked, delayed, etc.  Nevertheless, no sensor onboard provides as accurate a positional estimate as gps, so it really doesn't matter how superior the algorithm may be, the optimal solution would have gps.  Just wondering if this might be the cause of some of the altitude wondering...



ajay



Well, I just finished flying some good hard IFR last week in the -10. My wife and I packed up our bags and left Salt Lake City for the Bahamas. Once we hit Texas I flew IFR all the way to the Bahamas. No big storms just low ceilings and clouds at all levels. The RV-10 did awesome and the Cheltons were amazing. I really learned how to quickly modify my flight plan on the Cheltons. I still do have some issues with the altitude wandering from the Chelton and there is a little bit of side to side motion from the Cheltons as well. I would typically let the Cheltons handle the lateral steering and just let the Digiflight handle the altitude.

wvu(at)ameritel.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 6:35 am Post subject: IFR RV-10 / Bahamas Flight

I don't fully understand the guts of the DigiFlight II.  It can work as a 

stand alone unit and not relying on an external AHRS, right?

Sometimes engaging the ALT hold commands a ~500fpm descent.  Sometimes it 

would eventually level out.  Other times I get impatient waiting to see if 

it would level out.  Doing an inflight GYRO reset usually corrects the 

problem.

Anh

N591VU



---

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2881

Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 7:24 am Post subject: IFR RV-10 / Bahamas Flight

AJ,



No, the GPS aiding, or lack thereof, isn't at all what's in play

with Scott's wanderings.  It's solely a function of getting the

proper settings in both the screens and the autopilot.  Making an

autopilot fly straight is easy.  Making an autopilot capable of GPSS

fly a perfectly straight track with no wing wag is slightly (but only

slightly harder).  Making it fly perfectly level and fly up and down

and capture target altitudes is a bit harder yet.  This is just

because the more function you have, the more variety of settings

there are that you have to tweak for your specific aircraft to get

them to perform.  I gave Scott some baseline settings a while back

that improved his performance a bit.  I've had pretty much perfect

performance laterally, and after a bunch of testing, and adjusting

some non-standard stuff on the TruTrak, I had very good vertical

performance too.  Not perfect, in that altitudes would wander 20-30'

at times, but good enough to fly any approach.  The thing to keep in

mind is that before EFIS, with their great air data and resolution,

you wouldn't generally even know if you were 10-20' off...the precision

wasn't there.  Now we know.



Currently, we're on the final quest for perfection with getting the

proper mix of settings for the 2 main models of TruTraks to work well

with GPSV.  There were some software issues with the TruTrak's that were

fixed in software version 2.22, so if Scott's not running 2.22, then

that's first and foremost something to change.  They also did some work

on improving it in Chelton SW 6.0A9, and more in the soon to come

6.0A10 that are supposed to keep wanderings with GPSV and TruTraks down

to 7'.  But we're still working on identifying the proper settings with

the current software.



The most important thing to remember is that anyone who's buying any

system that will control their AP for lateral and especially vertical

performance is that there is a bit of flight work to be done to get them

tuned in.  You can't do as I did for months and just take off and go

places....you need to go out and actually do some tuning flights to

make sure you get everything right for your airplane.  The baselines

that we have now are pretty good, but everyones may be a little

different due to airframe differences.  There are many settings that

affect things...and I learned a couple more even last week.



EFIS:

Autopilot Analog Gain (affects roll and heading capture)

Autopilot Pitch Gain (affects pitch performance)

Vproc (setting procedure speed affects roll and wideness of turns

	and heading capture)

Vclimb (setting climb speed affects pitch angle of autopilot...

	may also be using mach climb settings)

Autopilot Roll Steering PID Loop (Needs to be disabled since TT

	does it in their system)

Autopilot Valid Polarity (should be "open collector is valid")



TruTrak:

Lateral Activity (greatly affects roll characteristics)

Lateral Torque

Bank Angle (Low-med-high)

Microactivity (both pitch and roll...can definitely affect performance)

GPSS Gain (Obviously, this can affect a lot on turns and GPSS captures)

Vertical Activity (this setting has a huge affect on our RV-10s)

Min. Airspeed (affects pitch performance)

Max. Airspeed (affects pitch performance)

Static Lag (can affect how the AP assumes the speed at which your

	static system is responding to altitude differences)

Half Step (can give finer resolution to pitch adjustments)

GPSV Gain (has a huge affect on ability to hold and capture altitudes

	in some cases)

There are others that have possible affects too in the TT.

So you can see from the above list, it's definitely not going to

be "plug-and-play" for anyone who's going to fly a system with all the

vertical and lateral features.  I've had a pretty easy time getting

lateral to work perfectly.  It took a bit of playing to get to where

I was very satisfied vertically.  But not being one to accept less than

perfect, I'm currently working with a few people to come up with

what will work as the best possible RV-10 baseline....which will also

assume you're running the very latest TruTrak and EFIS softwares.

As recently as last week, I found out that Vclimb, on the EFIS, wasn't

just there so you could mark your EFIS speed tape with climb speed.

I had it set to 106kts.  Well, it turns out it also affects the pitch

angle for altitude captures....so now I need to go out and set to

perhaps a more appropriate setting for cruise climb.  It's these little

things that can make all the difference.



For Scott's lateral wandering, I think that should be easy to lick.

I'd start with perhaps trying a number between 100 and 128 for the

"Autopilot Analog Gain" setting, and set Vproc to 145-150kts.  And,

I'd say try an Lateral activity of 3 on the AP, and maybe try switching

between bank angle high and bank angle medium.



For the vertical wandering, I'd say start by making sure he's at

6.0A9 and TruTrak 2.22...and if not, stop there and get that

taken care of.  Then shoot me every speed and AP setting in the EFIS,

and every autopilot setting and I'll take a peek at what's set.

It won't be long though and we'll have a better baseline documented

that he and anyone else can refer to in getting started.



With the dropout of D2A from the Chelton line, we're actually getting

much better support.  There is now open communication to a technical 

support person within Chelton, which is new because D2A used to only

deal with people directly and not have you call Chelton.  Deliveries are

flowing, and I hear they're sending out about 20 systems per week of the

old D2A "theft" backlog.  People are getting systems with both Crossbow

and  Pinpoint AHRS installed and flying.  Chelton has stepped up an

begun calling the Pinpoint the "Chelton AHRS" (refer to their website),

and is supporting it fully, and unofficially we've heard that the

manufacturing was done by one of the other foreign Chelton group

companies along with components from the same Chelton contractors who

actually made many of the parts in the EFIS.  So they're stepping out

from behind the curtain a bit and are doing much better than D2A at

pretty much everything.  Heck, the fact that when people pay for

equipment they get it is something new...with the D2A situation.  I've

heard some rumors as to the amount of their "theft" (I'll just call it

that because it's obviously "theft by fraud") and the dollar figures

are staggering.



So in short, it isn't surprising to see someone having wandering

problems, both laterally and vertically, when externally controlling

their AP.  There's a lot of work to do....and everyone who's

installing a similar high-end EFIS and autopilot will go through these

same steps.  It doesn't have to do with the GPS aiding of the AHRS,

but the large number of settings which must be set.  Too many builders,

and I'm not pointing fingers at Scott here, just plug it all together,

(or buy a pre-made panel), and then just assume it's all going to

work the way they want when they start flying.  This is probably true,

if you're running the old six-pack and just a GPS/Nav/Com, but

certainly not when you're running any of the most sophisticated stuff

(OP Tech / Garmin / Chelton / Grand Rapids)



Scott, shoot me an offline email and lets get your situation analyzed

a bit and lick this thing.   You're going to start a new flying season

going all over the country...you may as well have it all set up

perfectly and working beautifully.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

aj wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Scott,

 

 Thanks for the update, always exciting to hear about rventures.

 

 Just a thought about the Cheltons--  I recall Tim saying the Pinpoint

 doesn't use gps inputs for its navigation solution.  He seemed to

 view this as a positive in case your gps feeds get blocked, delayed,

 etc.  Nevertheless, no sensor onboard provides as accurate a

 positional estimate as gps, so it really doesn't matter how superior

 the algorithm may be, the optimal solution would have gps.  Just

 wondering if this might be the cause of some of the altitude

 wondering...

 

 ajay

 

 Well, I just finished flying some good hard IFR last week in the -10.

 My wife and I packed up our bags and left Salt Lake City for the

 Bahamas. Once we hit Texas I flew IFR all the way to the Bahamas. No

 big storms just low ceilings and clouds at all levels. The RV-10 did

 awesome and the Cheltons were amazing. I really learned how to

 quickly modify my flight plan on the Cheltons. I still do have some

 issues with the altitude wandering from the Chelton and there is a

 little bit of side to side motion from the Cheltons as well. I would

 typically let the Cheltons handle the lateral steering and just let

 the Digiflight handle the altitude.

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2881

Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 7:28 am Post subject: IFR RV-10 / Bahamas Flight

Can you list your settings? It would be interesting to see how

it's set up before commenting.  But, I think I saw an improvement

in vertical control after I got the torque enhancer for the pitch

servo...the wheel and channel one.  If you get that one, BE SURE

to doublecheck your cable end clamping setscrews to make sure their

tight before you fly.  Other than that, it works well.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

DejaVu wrote:

[quote] 

 

 I don't fully understand the guts of the DigiFlight II.  It can work as 

 a stand alone unit and not relying on an external AHRS, right?

 Sometimes engaging the ALT hold commands a ~500fpm descent.  Sometimes 

 it would eventually level out.  Other times I get impatient waiting to 

 see if it would level out.  Doing an inflight GYRO reset usually 

 corrects the problem.

 Anh

 N591VU

 

 ---

wvu(at)ameritel.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 7:51 am Post subject: IFR RV-10 / Bahamas Flight

Tim, I'll check the settings, meanwhile.... I have the IIG, no vertical 

steering. I have a hard time seeing how the torque enhancer would change the 

fact it commands a descent (of no particular rate).  With the enhancer I 

imagine that it would just commands a descent better.

Anh



---

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2881

Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:13 am Post subject: IFR RV-10 / Bahamas Flight

I was thinking back to mine in that I had some funky pitch

dives during my flyoff when it was out of trim and the torque

servo would then slip.  It behaved very strangely.  But if

you're perfectly in trim when you engage, then you're probably

right that the torque enhancer wouldn't change things.  I

did find it a nice mod for a VSGV system...but not sure how

that will come into play in your situation.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

DejaVu wrote:

[quote] 

 

 Tim, I'll check the settings, meanwhile.... I have the IIG, no vertical 

 steering. I have a hard time seeing how the torque enhancer would change 

 the fact it commands a descent (of no particular rate).  With the 

 enhancer I imagine that it would just commands a descent better.

 Anh

 

 ---

Jerry Grimmonpre'

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 144
Location: Huntley, Illinois 60142

Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:18 am Post subject: IFR RV-10 / Bahamas Flight

Tim ...

This is good info ... are you archiving posts, such as this, to your site?

A lurker ...

Jerry Grimmonpre

RV8 wires



---

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2881

Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:16 am Post subject: IFR RV-10 / Bahamas Flight

I haven't archived this particular info on my site yet, but I will

once we get through the final process and have a great baseline.

It's nice to have a good web reference for this stuff, you're right.

I'd like to hopefully get enough info so that no matter what EFIS

you're using you have a place to look for AP/EFIS setup info.  If

anyone has others, especially GRT, where they're flying vertical

steering and want to do a full setting documentation, just write it

up on a spreadsheet or something and I'll be happy to post that too.

There's just not enough good info out there, including from

any manufacturers install docs and manuals, to get into the detail

that's nice to have.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Jerry Grimmonpre wrote:

[quote] 

 

 Tim ...

 This is good info ... are you archiving posts, such as this, to your site?

 A lurker ...

 Jerry Grimmonpre

 RV8 wires

 

 ---

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 7:48 pm Post subject: IFR RV-10 / Bahamas Flight

On the IIG with a 430 or a Sorcerer with a 430 there were no settings that

needed to be changed at all.  The IIG has the normal servo and the Sorcerer

has the torque enhancer.  There is a difference in the strength of the

torque enhancer, appropriately.  Let's just say, "be careful not to put a

map or log book on top of the trim hat on the infinity grips when on auto

pilot, because the servo will only hold for so long, and then it will

release the plane to the trim setting, which can be a 'wetting' experience."



Do not archive



Jesse Saint

Saint Aviation, Inc.

jesse(at)saintaviation.com

www.saintaviation.com

Cell: 352-427-0285

Fax: 815-377-3694



--

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2881

Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:24 pm Post subject: IFR RV-10 / Bahamas Flight

Yes, but you're referring to a IIG, and a 430.  I did say that the

lateral was pretty easy. Not much to do there for most people.

It's the vertical steering for approaches and climbs controlled

by an external system that really start to get more complicated.



I agree TOTALLY on the inifinity grip + trim.  During my flyoff

I put one of my binders on my lap and it laid on the trim switch.

It didn't take long before I was yelling "whoa!!!" and felt like

I was riding a bucking bronco. The trim is very fast at high speeds.

Perfect in the pattern though.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Jesse Saint wrote:

[quote] 

 

 On the IIG with a 430 or a Sorcerer with a 430 there were no settings that

 needed to be changed at all.  The IIG has the normal servo and the Sorcerer

 has the torque enhancer.  There is a difference in the strength of the

 torque enhancer, appropriately.  Let's just say, "be careful not to put a

 map or log book on top of the trim hat on the infinity grips when on auto

 pilot, because the servo will only hold for so long, and then it will

 release the plane to the trim setting, which can be a 'wetting' experience."

 

 Do not archive

 

 Jesse Saint

 Saint Aviation, Inc.

 jesse(at)saintaviation.com

 www.saintaviation.com

 Cell: 352-427-0285

 Fax: 815-377-3694

 

 --

Rick S.

Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 347
Location: Las Vegas

Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:45 pm Post subject: IFR RV-10 / Bahamas Flight

Maybe I missed something but,



As I read down Scott's post, I recall him mention that Randy, his Father-in-Law had passed away which led to his hurried return trip, ALONE. FWIW, my sympathies to Scott's wife and their family for their loss, NOW let's chat about the auto pilot. Jeeez guys!!



(unless my screwy HTML email made me miss the appropriate responses, then my bad)



Rick S.

40185



do not archive

_________________
Rick S.
RV-10
40185

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2881

Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:45 am Post subject: IFR RV-10 / Bahamas Flight

Very true Rick, that was the significant part of his post, to be

sure.  I can only imagine how tough those circumstances for the

return trip were, and how ReNae must have felt.  The obit

made him sounds like an awesome guy to have in the family

if you're building an airplane.  It does sound like it

wasn't a totally unexpected event, and Scott's great trip

write up left me with a positive and not a negative feeling,

as it's apparent that he's got a positive outlook on life.

The RV-10 is a great traveling tool.  I myself expect that

it's going to take us across the country for a few of the

more downer situations, since we've got lots of older

family members in Florida.  It's great that he was able to

have such good ride home.  Thinking back to last week's

weather, and the week before that, it was amazing that he

was able to make the trip in the first place.  My sympathies

too, are for Scott and especially his wife and her direct

family. I was glad to hear that Scott made it back in time.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Rick wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Maybe I missed something but,

 

 As I read down Scott's post, I recall him mention that Randy, his

 Father-in-Law had passed away which led to his hurried return trip,

 ALONE. FWIW, my sympathies to Scott's wife and their family for their

 loss, NOW let's chat about the auto pilot. Jeeez guys!!

 

 (unless my screwy HTML email made me miss the appropriate responses,

 then my bad)

 

 Rick S. 40185

 

 do not archive

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> RV10-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum