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NPRM Process

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AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:44 am Post subject: NPRM Process

I don’t know how many of you will even be interested in the 51% Rule Making process, but given the AOPA’s response on Docket No. FAA-2006-26408 dealing with Repair Stations you will likely get the information a week late after it is a resolved policy.  Note: Last day to respond to the NPRM – March 1, 2007 (date of AOPA attaching it to their weekly newsletter – March 9th).  

The members met in secret session last week. Notes of the meetings are closed to the aviation public.  It has been internally and commonly discussed that few kit-builders have seen fit to give their perceptions and their recommended solutions to those ARC guys.  Hope you are all happy with the outcome. I think this process is BAA.. Baa, baa… Bad as I head to get my winter coat sheared for market.  

I am confident future User Fees and significantly increased insurance costs will get your attention down the road.  

John Cox  

#40600  

    [quote][b]

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bldgrv10450(at)comcast.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:20 am Post subject: NPRM Process

John

  

 Could you please articulate for the builders  following this process, what you would like to see the board adopt.

 I don't like the feeling of being a sheep  when it comes to new rules. I may not agree in total with your suggestions  but it believe it will help some of us better understanding the issues  at hand.  

 Personally I don't want any change in the process  I enjoy building this airplane and I am not interested in restricting  the freedom and efforts of others as long as there is a reasonable measure  of public safety and economic stability for all of us. Frankly, I am fed up with  government oversight and generally lean away from excessive rules, restrictions  and regulations.

 I don't mean to get political here, but we are  talking about government and in my opinion as a professional  general  contractor and developer there is just to much government control without a  balance of personal freedom and economic consideration.

  

 I know this topic seems way off course  from the details of building these beautiful airplanes, but it should get a  measure of our attention. We have to guard  our efforts and interests in building and flying, to protect the personal  freedom it provides.

  

 Paul Grimstad

RV10 40450

Portland,  Or.

  

 do not archive  

  

 [quote]   ---

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wcurtis(at)nerv10.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:42 am Post subject: NPRM Process

[quote]>The members met in secret session last week. Notes of the meetings are closed to the aviation public.  It should always be a concern in a free society when any "public" body meets in "secret sessions" about matters that will affect the public.  I for one don't think anything was broken with the 51% rule so why are folks tinkering with it trying to "fix" it.  While it is not perfect, any tinkering by the government and special interest parties will just create a bureaucracy of additional paperwork benefiting the few and annoying the many.Williamhttp://wcurtis.nerv10.com/    [quote][b]

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Dave(at)AirCraftersLLC.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 10:13 am Post subject: NPRM Process

I had to miss the second  day of the last 51% meeting.  When I get some details as to what was  discussed I'll pass along everything I know.

  

 The first day was spent  painstakingly reviewing all proposed changes to FAA forms and orders.  This  consists largely of 15 people (5 of which are attorneys) sitting around arguing  over whether a sentence should contain the verb "shall" or "will" instead of  "may".  The poor typist, who makes the changes in MS Word on the fly, has  to listen to people call out their favorite keyboard shortcuts amongst all the  substantial changes.

  

 We also toured the Epic  factory.  That was cool.

  

 The process is boring and tedious, but necessary.   Kind of like deburring the words.

  

 The  committee  charter  says:  

11. PUBLIC PARTICIPATION. Interested persons or organizations who  are not committee members but plan to attend a meeting must first acquire  approval from the Director of the Aircraft Certification Service, or his/her  delegate. The committee’s meetings are generally not open to the public, however  anyone in attendance may make comments or provide input, but such comments or  input must be made through one of the committee members.  

And if you really want to see the  sausage before it goes in the grinder you could do a FOI request.  I'm not  trying to be difficult, just playing by the rules.  We were asked not to  show the changes around before our proposal is done in order to speed up the  process.  Keep in mind we are working on proposed changes, which will not  be finalized before the public gets a chance to comment. 

We are meeting next in Milwaukee on  May 8 and 9.  I know Don Lausman at FAA in Washington monitors this list  and could probably give some pointers as to how to  attend. 

As for the 51%  rule and what the public wants, as far as I can tell, there is no clear majority  opinion.  Half want the rule to stay the same and half want to allow more  builder assistance.  What is clear is that no one wants more government  intrusion into how we go about building our planes.  The FAA is  clear:  the rule is has been allowed to slip.  The committee thinks  that's because no one knows how to interpret it.  Our goal right now is to  provide guidance that gives DARs and inspectors very clear tools to make a 51%  determination. 

Later, we will  take up the question as to whether or not we want an official way around  "amatuer built" but for now we are firming up the rules we now have in  place. 

Please let me know  what you think. Dave Saylor

 AirCrafters LLC

 140 Aviation Way

 Watsonville, CA 

 831-722-9141

 831-750-0284 CL

 www.AirCraftersLLC.com

 

 

  

   From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of William  Curtis

Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 9:45 AM

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com; rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: re:  NPRM Process

 

 

 	  Quote: 	
		  >The members met in  secret session last week. Notes of the meetings are closed to the aviation  public.  


	




It should always be a concern in a free  society when any "public" body meets in "secret sessions" about matters that  will affect the public.  I for one don't think anything was broken with the  51% rule so why are folks tinkering with it trying to "fix" it.  While it  is not perfect, any tinkering by the government and special interest parties  will just create a bureaucracy of additional paperwork benefiting the few and  annoying the many.



William

http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/

[quote]



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com



[b]

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rv10builder(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 10:41 am Post subject: NPRM Process

Dave;

 Thanks for dealing with all this boredom to assure  we are doing the right this for the right people.

  

 Our goal right now is to provide guidance that gives DARs  and inspectors very clear tools to make a 51% determination

  

 I like this approach. If we can educate the  inspectors and leave the builders "as is" we are doing everything I would hope  for; Changing the way I have to get my plane inspected. By providing detailed  questions from the DAR or FAA about the plane will certainly put a builder on  the spot to know their plane, but a real builder should know it or they missed  something critical in the building.

  

 Thanks again!

 Pascal

 [quote]   ---

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jhstarn(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 10:44 am Post subject: NPRM Process

If I read the ten commandments correctly there really is a HUGE difference  between SHALL & MAY. Keep up the good work, it's important (IMNSHO) to get  it right the first time. KABONG  Do Not Archive

 [quote]   ---

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AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 11:21 am Post subject: NPRM Process

Sounds like my Oregon Department of Aviation meeting scheduled for tomorrow AM after 10 hours of Graves at Horizon.  

   

I can relate.  I enjoyed Epic as well.  Thanks for the post.    

     

John Cox 

 #40600   

        

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Saylor

 Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 11:12 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: NPRM Process  

  

   

I had to miss the second day of the last 51% meeting.  When I get some details as to what was discussed I'll pass along everything I know.  

   

The first day was spent painstakingly reviewing all proposed changes to FAA forms and orders.  This consists largely of 15 people (5 of which are attorneys) sitting around arguing over whether a sentence should contain the verb "shall" or "will" instead of "may".  The poor typist, who makes the changes in MS Word on the fly, has to listen to people call out their favorite keyboard shortcuts amongst all the substantial changes.  

   

We also toured the Epic factory.  That was cool.  

   

The process is boring and tedious, but necessary.  Kind of like deburring the words.  

   

The  committee charter  says:   

11. PUBLIC PARTICIPATION. Interested persons or organizations who are not committee members but plan to attend a meeting must first acquire approval from the Director of the Aircraft Certification Service, or his/her delegate. The committee’s meetings are generally not open to the public, however anyone in attendance may make comments or provide input, but such comments or input must be made through one of the committee members.   

And if you really want to see the sausage before it goes in the grinder you could do a FOI request.  I'm not trying to be difficult, just playing by the rules.  We were asked not to show the changes around before our proposal is done in order to speed up the process.  Keep in mind we are working on proposed changes, which will not be finalized before the public gets a chance to comment.  

We are meeting next in Milwaukee on May 8 and 9.  I know Don Lausman at FAA in Washington monitors this list and could probably give some pointers as to how to attend.  

As for the 51% rule and what the public wants, as far as I can tell, there is no clear majority opinion.  Half want the rule to stay the same and half want to allow more builder assistance.  What is clear is that no one wants more government intrusion into how we go about building our planes.  The FAA is clear:  the rule is has been allowed to slip.  The committee thinks that's because no one knows how to interpret it.  Our goal right now is to provide guidance that gives DARs and inspectors very clear tools to make a 51% determination.  

Later, we will take up the question as to whether or not we want an official way around "amatuer built" but for now we are firming up the rules we now have in place.  

Please let me know what you think.  

Dave Saylor  

AirCrafters LLC  

140 Aviation Way  

Watsonville, CA   

831-722-9141  

831-750-0284 CL  

www.AirCraftersLLC.com  

   

       

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Curtis

 Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 9:45 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com; rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: re: NPRM Process  

 	  Quote: 	
		  >The members met in secret session last week. Notes of the meetings are closed to the aviation public.  

 
	


 

 It should always be a concern in a free society when any "public" body meets in "secret sessions" about matters that will affect the public.  I for one don't think anything was broken with the 51% rule so why are folks tinkering with it trying to "fix" it.  While it is not perfect, any tinkering by the government and special interest parties will just create a bureaucracy of additional paperwork benefiting the few and annoying the many.

 

 William

 http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/  [quote]  href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com    [b]

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Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2881

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:06 pm Post subject: NPRM Process

There's a very well written article in this month's Kitiplanes by Ed

Wischmeyer.  It's called "Builder Assistance - Options abound, but

what kind of help is legal?"  I'd have to say, I think he hit the

nail on the head. (or is it the rivet?)



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

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jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 5:35 am Post subject: NPRM Process

I agree.  Very good article



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 There's a very well written article in this month's Kitiplanes by Ed

 Wischmeyer.  It's called "Builder Assistance - Options abound, but

 what kind of help is legal?"  I'd have to say, I think he hit the

 nail on the head. (or is it the rivet?)



 Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

 do not archive

- The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

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