Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - E-LSA before and after 1-31-08

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

E-LSA before and after 1-31-08

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kolb-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:30 am Post subject: E-LSA before and after 1-31-08

From current online FAR's

§ 21.191   Experimental certificates.

  Experimental certificates are issued for the following purposes:

  (i)  Operating light-sport aircraft.  Operating a light-sport aircraft that—  

 (1) Has not been issued a U.S. or foreign airworthiness certificate and does not meet the provisions of §103.1 of this chapter. An experimental certificate will not be issued under this paragraph for these aircraft after January 31, 2008;

2) Has been assembled—  

  (i) From an aircraft kit for which the applicant can provide the information required by §21.193(e); and  

  (ii) In accordance with manufacturer's assembly instructions that meet an applicable consensus standard; or   

  (3) Has been previously issued a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category under §21.190.

§ 21.193   Experimental certificates: general.

  An applicant for an experimental certificate must submit the following information: 



 (e) In the case of a light-sport aircraft assembled from a kit to be certificated in accordance with §21.191(i)(2), an applicant must provide the following:  

 (1) Evidence that an aircraft of the same make and model was manufactured and assembled by the aircraft kit manufacturer and issued a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category.  

  (2) The aircraft's operating instructions.  

  (3) The aircraft's maintenance and inspection procedures.  

 (4) The manufacturer's statement of compliance for the aircraft kit used in the aircraft assembly that meets §21.190(c), except that instead of meeting §21.190(c)(7), the statement must identify assembly instructions for the aircraft that meet an applicable consensus standard.  

  (5) The aircraft's flight training supplement.  

 (6) In addition to paragraphs (e)(1) through (e)(5) of this section, for an aircraft kit manufactured outside of the United States, evidence that the aircraft kit was manufactured in a country with which the United States has a Bilateral Airworthiness Agreement concerning airplanes or a Bilateral Aviation Safety Agreement with associated Implementation Procedures for Airworthiness concerning airplanes, or an equivalent airworthiness agreement.

These are the rules that apply to obtaining an experimental certificate for operating an Experimental Light Sport Aircraft.

Notice that 21.191(i)1 doesn't say anything about where the aircraft came from. No mention of kits, manufactured, homebuilt, nothing, nada. Just two things are required to get an experimental certificate for an E-LSA before 1-31-08. The aircraft in't legal as an ultralight, and it's never been registered before. That's it. 

Can you buy a kit from Kolb today and get an E-LSA experimental certificate? YES, but you must have that experimental certificate in your hands before the stroke of midnight on the night of Jan 31, 2008.

Can you buy a complete aircraft, today, and get an  E-LSA experimental certificate? YES, but you must have that experimental certificate in your hands before the stroke of midnight on the night of Jan 31, 2008.

Can you design and build an aircraft from scratch, starting today, and get an E-LSA experimental certificate?  YES, but you must have that experimental certificate in your hands before the stroke of midnight on the night of Jan 31, 2008.

The word registration is getting kicked around this group as though it is synonymous with getting an experimental certificate. It is not. Getting an aircraft registered is only a step in the process of  getting an experimental certificate. 



If you have only your registration on February 1, 2008 your aircraft CANNOT be given an experimental certificate for E-LSA unless it meets the requirements of  21.191(i)2 or 21.191(i)3.

Rick

 

-- 

Rick Girard

"Ya'll drop on in"

takes on a whole new meaning

when you live at the airport.  [quote][b]

John Williamson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 146
Location: Arlington, TX

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 8:33 am Post subject: Re: E-LSA before and after 1-31-08

Hi Rick and all,



To use your own message quote:

"(e) In the case of a light-sport aircraft assembled from a kit to be certificated in accordance with 21.191(i)(2), an applicant must provide the following: 

(1) Evidence that an aircraft of the same make and model was manufactured and assembled by the aircraft kit manufacturer and issued a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category. 

(2) The aircraft's operating instructions. 

(3) The aircraft's maintenance and inspection procedures. 

(4) The manufacturer's statement of compliance for the aircraft kit used in the aircraft assembly that meets 21.190(c), except that instead of meeting 21.190(c)(7), the statement must identify assembly instructions for the aircraft that meet an applicable consensus standard. 

(5) The aircraft's flight training supplement."



You guys can read and interpret to your liking all you want but that isn't going to change the fact that you can't build a new TNK Kit and register it as ELSA: Why you might ask:

1. TNK does not manufacturer an airplane that has had a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category issued.

2. TNK does not issue aircraft's operating instructions with their Kits.

3. TNK does not issue aircraft's maintenance and inspection procedures. You might be able to write your own for submittal, but I doubt it.

4.  TNK does not issue a manufacturer's statement of compliance or assembly instructions for the aircraft that meet an applicable consensus standard.

5. TNK does not issue an aircraft's flight training supplement.



If any one of the five items are missing, it can't be done as an ELSA for a new kit construction, ever.



Do Not Archive

_________________
John Williamson
Arlington, TX

Kolbra, 912ULS, 1640 hours
http://home.tx.rr.com/kolbrapilot

dhkey(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:40 am Post subject: E-LSA before and after 1-31-08

John W(on list)

I was told that if I build a EAB I can switch it to a ELSA. Not that I would 

want to, but someone was comparing the two on the list and didn't mention 

that huge advantage of EAB, you can switch an EAB to ESLA but not the other 

way around. Not that anyone would want to but is this true? I was told this 

by the instructor in an ELSA repair man class.



Thanks,

David Key

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:18 am Post subject: E-LSA before and after 1-31-08

David, No you can't. 21.191(i)1 says not previously registered so you can't switch back and forth. 

John, Those regulations do not go into effect until Feb 1, 2008. 

I registered my store boughten trike in January, no problems.  

Go take a look at Form 8050-88A "Affidavit of Ownership". If, as you say, you can't register an E-LSA why does this form have so many ways to account for ownership when registering. Notice that this form, too, expires on Jan 31, 2008. 

You just don't seem to understand 21.191(i)1. If it meets the definition of an LSA (FAR 1 Definitions), hasn't been registered before, and doesn't qualify as an ultraltlight you can obtain an E-LSA experimental certificate until Jan 1, 2008. Period. 

After Jan 31, 2008 you have to meet the requirements of 21.191(i) 2 or 3.



Rick



On 3/28/07, David Key <dhkey(at)msn.com  (dhkey(at)msn.com)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "David Key" < dhkey(at)msn.com (dhkey(at)msn.com)>



John W(on list)

I was told that if I build a EAB I can switch it to a ELSA. Not that I would

want to, but someone was comparing the two on the list and didn't mention

that huge advantage of EAB, you can switch an EAB to ESLA but not the other 



	


-- 

Rick Girard

"Ya'll drop on in"

takes on a whole new meaning

when you live at the airport.  [quote][b]

MKIIIX040

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 123
Location: Millinocket, Maine

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:55 am Post subject: E-LSA before and after 1-31-08

Now you've all got me confused. I've never understood  lawyer speak or FAR's

 If I don't finish my Extra by Feb. 08 besides hanging  myself

 what are my options then?

 Does it have to be finished to be documented?

  

  Vic

 912 UL Extra

 Maine

 do not archive



   [quote][b]

_________________
MKIIIX040
912UL

John Williamson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 146
Location: Arlington, TX

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:10 pm Post subject: Re: E-LSA before and after 1-31-08

Rick and All,



I stand corrected. Thank you Rick.



Here is the section of FAR 21.191 that allows you to build and register your Kit Built or already built non-ultralight Kolb as as ELSA:



"Experimental certificates are issued for the following purposes: 

(i) Operating light-sport aircraft. Operating a light-sport aircraft thatï¿½ 

(1) Has not been issued a U.S. or foreign airworthiness certificate and does not meet the provisions of 103.1 of this chapter. An experimental certificate will not be issued under this paragraph for these aircraft after January 31, 2008;"

Here are some links for those that are interested in what this thread has been about:



â€œFat Ultralightsâ€ â€“ Deadline Looming 

http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/gen_av/light_sport/media/FatUltralights.doc



Light Sport Aircraft Registration 

http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/aircraft_certification/aircraft_registry/light_sport_aircraft/



Affidavit of Ownership for Experimental or Special Light-Sport Aircraft, AC Form 8050-88A 

http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/aircraft_certification/aircraft_registry/media/8050-88a.pdf



Thanks again Rick for keeping me straight.

No Not Archive

_________________
John Williamson
Arlington, TX

Kolbra, 912ULS, 1640 hours
http://home.tx.rr.com/kolbrapilot

Arty Trost

Joined: 25 May 2006
Posts: 206
Location: Sandy, Oregon

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:42 pm Post subject: E-LSA before and after 1-31-08

Yes, Vic, it has to be finished to be "documented"

(e.g. get its airworthiness certificate.)  It has to

be completely finished and have received its

airworthiness certificate by 1-31-08.  



Apparently the FAA is expecting a flood of

applications for airworthiness inspections in Dec. and

Jan., and they are saying that if you apply for your

airworthiness certificate inspection by November (and

I'm not sure of the exact date in November - it's been

on this list) they will still grant you a certificate

(assuming it's airworthy) even if they can't get to

you by 1-31-08.  BUT - that's only if they aren't able

to complete the process - not if you're not ready for

them to do the inspection.



Arty Trost

--- Vic Peters <vicsvinyl(at)verizon.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Now you've all got me confused. I've never

 understood lawyer speak or FAR's

 If I don't finish my Extra by Feb. 08 besides

 hanging myself

 what are my options then?

 Does it have to be finished to be documented?

 

 Vic

 912 UL Extra

 Maine

 do not archive


	




www.LessonsFromTheEdge.com



"Life's a daring adventure or nothing"

                      Helen Keller



"I refuse to tip toe through life just to arrive safely at death."

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:47 pm Post subject: E-LSA before and after 1-31-08

Vic, Let's start from the beginning. Have you registered your aircraft?



Rick



On 3/28/07, Vic Peters < vicsvinyl(at)verizon.net (vicsvinyl(at)verizon.net)> wrote:[quote]       Now you've all got me confused. I've never understood  lawyer speak or FAR's

 If I don't finish my Extra by Feb. 08 besides hanging  myself

 what are my options then?

 Does it have to be finished to be documented?

  

  Vic

 912 UL Extra

 Maine

 do not archive



   [quote][b]  http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List http://forums.matronics.com 

when you live at the airport.  [quote][b]

MKIIIX040

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 123
Location: Millinocket, Maine

Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 5:57 am Post subject: E-LSA before and after 1-31-08

Thanks Arty, thats one answer.

 Rick, I registered it as a ul trainer with EAA. Reasoning  was so that I and my ul instructor could put at least 40Hrs. on it. Otherwise I  would have to pay for fuel for someone else to fly my baby since I have no  license student or sport.

 I'm not even sure this will work. Even if it does'nt if I  get my license

 before 08' I could fly off my own time.

  

 Set me straight if this is wrong.

  

  Vic

 912 UL Extra

 Maine

 do not archive



   [quote][b]

_________________
MKIIIX040
912UL

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:17 am Post subject: E-LSA before and after 1-31-08

Okay, Vic, now I understand. Being registered as a UL trainer doesn't help you with the Jan 31, 2008 deadline. 

If you are building now, can you reasonably expect to finish by Jan 31, 2008? In actuality you would need to be finished sometime before this date. The last notice I got from FAA said they would gaurantee anyone who submitted their packet by Nov 30, 2207 that they would get their E-LSA experimental certificate.  

Now, if you can reasonably expect to meet the deadline, go online and get form 8050-88A, reserve an N number if you want a custom number, and call the nearest FAA FSDO and ask them to send you a form 8050-1 registration application. Fill out the two forms, make a copy of the letter granting you the custom N number and send it along with a Postal Money order for $5 and send it to the address shown on the form 8050-1 and in three weeks or so you'll get your registration.  

If you want to go EAB then proceed at your own pace and don't sweat it. When you want to register you'll use use form 8050-88 instead of 8050-88A, otherwise the process is exactly the same but there is no time limit. 



Rick



On 3/29/07, Vic Peters <vicsvinyl(at)verizon.net (vicsvinyl(at)verizon.net)> wrote:[quote]        Thanks Arty, thats one answer.

 Rick, I registered it as a ul trainer with EAA. Reasoning  was so that I and my ul instructor could put at least 40Hrs. on it. Otherwise I  would have to pay for fuel for someone else to fly my baby since I have no  license student or sport.

 I'm not even sure this will work. Even if it does'nt if I  get my license

 before 08' I could fly off my own time.

  

 Set me straight if this is wrong.

  

  Vic

 912 UL Extra

 Maine

 do not archive



   [quote][b]  http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List http://forums.matronics.com 

when you live at the airport.  [quote][b]

MKIIIX040

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 123
Location: Millinocket, Maine

Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 1:16 pm Post subject: E-LSA before and after 1-31-08

Hey Rick, I should have plenty of time to finish before  Nov.

  

 Last question. Will I still have to fly off 40 hrs. after  I convert to elsa even If we already have logged that many hrs. this summer  ?

  

 If you've already answered tht excuse me it must be the  drugs from the 60's.

  

   Vic

 912 UL Extra

 Maine

 do not archive



[quote]

[b]

_________________
MKIIIX040
912UL

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 3:27 pm Post subject: E-LSA before and after 1-31-08

If you register your aircraft experimental amateur built (EAB) and you have a non certificated engine and propellor you will be assigned a 40 hour test period. It is illegal to fly an uncertificated aircraft so I don't know how previously logged hours would play out with the FAA or a DAR.  

If you register experimental light sport aircraft (E-LSA) you would get a 5 hour test period. I have heard of having the test period waved based on logged hours, but that's just hearsay.



Rick



 On 3/29/07, Vic Peters <vicsvinyl(at)verizon.net (vicsvinyl(at)verizon.net)> wrote:[quote]        Hey Rick, I should have plenty of time to finish before  Nov.

  

 Last question. Will I still have to fly off 40 hrs. after  I convert to elsa even If we already have logged that many hrs. this summer  ?

  

 If you've already answered tht excuse me it must be the  drugs from the 60's.

  

   Vic

 912 UL Extra

 Maine

 do not archive



[quote]

[b]  http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List http://forums.matronics.com 

when you live at the airport.  [quote][b]

WillUribe(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 5:00 pm Post subject: E-LSA before and after 1-31-08

Rick,

 I registered my 503 Rotax powered Kolb FireStar II as an experimental  amateur built and only got a 5 hour test period. It was inspected by a DAR  and an FAA inspector who was checking out the DAR.  It has been a long  time so I can't remember where in the regs an ultralight type aircraft can be  assigned a 5 hour test period but I pointed it out to them and they both  concurred to give me the 5 hour test period.

  

 Regards,

 Will Uribe

 El Paso, TX

 FireStar II N4GU

 http://home.elp.rr.com/airplane/

 do not archive

  

  

    

 

From:  owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard  Girard

Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 5:27 PM

To:  kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re:  Re: E-LSA before and after 1-31-08 

  

If you register your aircraft experimental amateur built  (EAB) and you have a non certificated engine and propellor you will be assigned  a 40 hour test period. It is illegal to fly an uncertificated aircraft so I  don't know how previously logged hours would play out with the FAA or a DAR.  

If you register experimental light sport aircraft (E-LSA) you would get a 5  hour test period. I have heard of having the test period waved based on logged  hours, but that's just hearsay.



Rick 

On 3/29/07, Vic Peters <vicsvinyl(at)verizon.net (vicsvinyl(at)verizon.net)>  wrote: 

Hey Rick, I should have plenty of time to finish  before Nov. 

  

Last question. Will I still have to fly off 40 hrs.  after I convert to elsa even If we already have logged that many hrs. this  summer ? 

  

If you've already answered tht excuse me it must be  the drugs from the 60's. 

  

Vic 

912 UL Extra 

Maine 

do not  archive



See what's free at AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kolb-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum