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BRS location

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d-m-hague(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:27 am Post subject: BRS location

After the discussion about 8 point rolls (yikes!) last night, I got to 

thinking... why is it that most Kolbs I've seen with a BRS have it mounted 

right on top of the wing root?  Seems that'd be the worst possible place... 

if the wings fold, having the BRS in between would seem to be the worst 

possible place, no?



By contrast, the Quicksilver I was flying last year had the chute mounted 

on the rear axle, firing back and slightly to the side, in a direction 

likely to clear any flailing structure.



It's an academic question anyway, since I have no BRS... there is one for 

my plane, but it's supposedly sitting in one of the former owner's 

basements... an obsolete design that nobody will repack.



				-Dana

--

--

The citizens of the United States are getting the government they deserve. 

The problem is that I'm also getting the government they deserve.

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 4:06 am Post subject: BRS location

| After the discussion about 8 point rolls (yikes!) last night, I got 

to

| thinking... why is it that most Kolbs I've seen with a BRS have it 

mounted

| right on top of the wing root?  Seems that'd be the worst possible 

place...

| if the wings fold, having the BRS in between would seem to be the 

worst

| possible place, no?

Dana:



I know of only one Kolb to fold the wings, a Twinstar, many years ago. 

Gentleman built the airplane, test flew for a short time, and the lift 

strut fitting pulled loose.  He failed to install the 3/8" lift strut 

tang bolts.  Was flying on a few 1/8" pop rivets.



Some of us have tried pretty hard to break our Kolbs, but never had a 

wing failure as a result of a failed lift strut or main spar, or 

attachment bolt.



I would venture to say if the above were to happen, it would only be 

one wing.  But doubt very seriously anyone could do that, unless they 

had a bad spar, lift strut, or piece of hardware.



My parachute recovery system is in the front of my center section. 

Puts it inside the aircraft where it is sealed from the weather and 

other elements.  No one knows at what attitude the aircraft will be in 

when something breaks.  May be in normal flight attitude or it my be 

inverted, or it maybe tumbing and spinning up.  May not be able to get 

to the activation handle because of centrifugal force.



Quicksilvers and Kolbs have practically nothing in common when it 

comes to material and method of contruction.  Usually, when a 

Quicksilver fails a wing, it fails both.  The wings tips may go up or 

down, and when they do, they bring with them a tangle of steel wire 

cable.  For me, if I should ever fly a Quicksilver, I would have a 

difficult time deciding where to plant the ballistic recovery system. 

Glad I don't have to make that decision.  Never flown one and don't 

want to fly one.  In fact, I have never flown but one other UL than a 

Kolb.  That was Bert Howland's personal Honey Bee in 1989.



Take care,



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 5:04 am Post subject: BRS location

If it is a softpack, there is a parachute rigger in Kentucky who does 

obsolete designs. Let me know.

Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

---

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

d-m-hague(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:07 am Post subject: BRS location

At 08:06 AM 4/4/2007, John Hauck wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  I would venture to say if the above were to happen, it would only be

one wing.  But doubt very seriously anyone could do that, unless they

had a bad spar, lift strut, or piece of hardware....No one knows at what 

attitude the aircraft will be in when something breaks.  May be in normal 

flight attitude or it my be inverted...


	


If one wing went at, say, the lift strut, it folds up.  I would think the 

very next thing to happen would be the other wing then goes straight up 

too, with the fuselage on its side.  Either way, the BRS is blocked.



I would think the best thing would be to have the BRS firing down or to the 

side.  The most likely failure scenario would seem to be failed lifting or 

control surfaces above the plane, with the [relatively] heavy fuselage 

below, in clear air.  But then a properly designed and built airframe (and 

a Kolb IS properly designed!) should never fail.



Actually, my own Ultrastar took a [totally unnecessary] parachute 

ride.  The original owner had an engine failure, right over the airport, 

and instead of flying the plane he panicked and pulled the chute.  It 

drifted into power lines and suffered major damage.  He rebuilt it but was 

afraid to ever fly it again (though friends of his did, a few times).



                                 -Dana

--

--

The citizens of the United States are getting the government they deserve. 

The problem is that I'm also getting the government they deserve.

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 12:33 pm Post subject: Re: BRS location

 	  d-m-hague(at)comcast.net wrote: 	
		  

Actually, my own Ultrastar took a [totally unnecessary] parachute 

ride.  The original owner had an engine failure, right over the airport, 

and instead of flying the plane he panicked and pulled the chute.  It 

drifted into power lines and suffered major damage.  He rebuilt it but was 

afraid to ever fly it again (though friends of his did, a few times).



                                 -Dana

	




Given the really bad choice and lack of judgement in deploying the chute over an airport, the fact that the owner never flew again is a good thing.   Some people just dont have what it takes to fly.....



What kind of damage did the power lines do to the plane ?  Was it arcing/ melting, or just bent from hitting the lines ?



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

d-m-hague(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 1:32 pm Post subject: BRS location

At 09:00 AM 4/4/2007, Richard Pike wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



If it is a softpack, there is a parachute rigger in Kentucky who does 

obsolete designs. Let me know.


	


I'll have to ask one of the prior owners, with luck I'll see him next 

weekend.  I think it's one of the old style shotgun shell (as opposed to 

rocket) deployed chutes.



Also hoping I can get the center section cover from him.



                                 -Dana

--

--

The citizens of the United States are getting the government they deserve. 

The problem is that I'm also getting the government they deserve.

d-m-hague(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 1:42 pm Post subject: BRS location

At 04:33 PM 4/4/2007, JetPilot wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Given the really bad choice and lack of judgement in deploying the chute 

over an airport, the fact that the owner never flew again is a good 

thing.   Some people just dont have what it takes to fly.....



What kind of damage did the power lines do to the plane ?  Was it arcing/ 

melting, or just bent from hitting the lines ?


	


I'm not sure, it was a long time ago.  I know the guy the original owner 

sold it to (he's another PPGer; he bought the Kolb, then without ever 

flying it traded it for two ParaPlanes (bad move IMO), then got into PPG... 

but I digress).  Anyway, he never said anything about 

arcing/melting.  IIRC, I think the chute hit the lines, not the plane, but 

I could be mistaken... the main damage was to the wings, which had to be 

rebuilt and recovered... and to the pilot's leg, which was broken... when 

he jumped out of the plane.



Yes, some people shouldn't fly.



                                 -Dana

--

--

The citizens of the United States are getting the government they deserve. 

The problem is that I'm also getting the government they deserve.

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:46 pm Post subject: Re: BRS location

My BRS is in the center between the wings, as you can see in the attached picture.   It does make me wonder if it would deploy after a wing fialure.  The structure looks very strong overall, but the pin that attaches the wing to the center section has always made me wonder.  I have calculated the forces and they are well below the shear level of the pin, but shear forces listed for AN hardware do not take into account this large 1 inch spread with the wing load in the center of the pin which creates more of a bending force, not a shear force on the pin...  I have been tempted to drill the holes out, and go with one size larger pin, but removing material from the tongues could create its own weakness in negative G loads....



Mike

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_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

biglar

Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 457

Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:29 am Post subject: BRS location

I had exactly the same thought and concern, so made spacers out of scrap tubing to hold the strut against one side of that 1" spread.  Prob'ly makes no difference, but I feel better.                    Lar.



  On 4/4/07, JetPilot <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com (orcabonita(at)hotmail.com)> wrote: [quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com  (orcabonita(at)hotmail.com)>



My BRS is in the center between the wings, as you can see in the attached picture.   It does make me wonder if it would deploy after a wing fialure.  The structure looks very strong overall, but the pin that attaches the wing to the center section has always made me wonder.  I have calculated the forces and they are well below the shear level of the pin, but shear forces listed for AN hardware do not take into account this large 1 inch spread with the wing load in the center of the pin which creates more of a bending force, not a shear force on the pin...  I have been tempted to drill the holes out, and go with one size larger pin, but removing material from the tongues could create its own weakness in negative G loads.... 



Mike



--------

"NO FEAR" -  If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!





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_________________
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk IIIC
"Vamoose"

Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 11:55 am Post subject: BRS location

<<... why is it that most Kolbs I've seen with a BRS have it mounted

right on top of the wing root?  Seems that'd be the worst possible

place... 

if the wings fold, having the BRS in between would seem to be the worst

possible place, no? -Dana >>



Dana - 



Keeping in mind that the BRS fires a projectile that pulls your chute

out at a velocity of 100 feet per second, any direction your BRS launch

tube is aimed, as long as it's generally pointed AWAY from the airplane,

will likely give you a clear path for your parachute to open without

interference.  My BRS is mounted on top, with the rocket pointed

straight up.



On my Mark-III, the procedure is simple.  

I practice this mentally before every flight:



1. Verify it's an emergency sufficient in magnitude to deploy the BRS.

2. Hit the ignition kill switch.

3. Pull the big red handle.



Also, I like to think that "wings folding" is probably pretty low on my

list of possible emergencies that might happen.  I fly my plane gently!





Dennis Kirby

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