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Firestar lift struts

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herbgh

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 145

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:34 am Post subject: Firestar lift struts

Nuther subject..

  I am building a set of single lift strut wings for my Firefly.. 

finally getting my butt in gear after a long and hard winter..



   Question:  what dia and wall thickness are the lift struts on a

Firestar.. older , single seat model would be fine... Herb

WhiskeyVictor36(at)aol.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 6:53 pm Post subject: Firestar lift struts

In a message dated 4/19/2007 9:34:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  herbgh(at)juno.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Question:  what dia and wall thickness are the lift struts on    a

Firestar.. older , single seat model would be  fine 	


 

 Herb,

  

 Here are the dimensions of the early Original FireStar model:

  

 Strut = 2024-T3 Alum Tube 1-1/4" OD X .058" wall, with length to be  determined at assembly.

  

 Internal Sleeve = 2024-T3 Alum Tube 1-1/8" OD X .058" wall X 36"  long.

  

 Internal sleeve is to be centered in the strut and held in place with one  1/8" X 1/8" rivet.  It is important to place the rivet 41-1/2" from the top  end of the strut AND the rivet head toward the rear (or trailing edge) of the  strut.

  

 Lift strut fittings are attached to each end of the strut with 1/8" X 1/2"  rivets.  5 rows of 5 rivets per row, spaced evenly around the circumference  of the tube.

  

 Hope this helps.

  

 Bill  Varnes

Original Kolb FireStar

Audubon NJ

Do Not  Archive



See what's free at AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

herbgh

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 145

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 8:26 pm Post subject: Firestar lift struts

Thanks Bill

  

   I hoped that they were 6061 t6 since I have quite an assortment of  that...I will likely talk to the Kolb folks when I go that way next week.. maybe  Bryan also.. He built a single lift strut Firefly some time back..  Herb  

  

  

  

 On Thu, 19 Apr 2007 22:53:09 EDT WhiskeyVictor36(at)aol.com (WhiskeyVictor36(at)aol.com) writes:

 [quote]      In a message dated 4/19/2007 9:34:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,    herbgh(at)juno.com writes:

    	  Quote: 	
		  Question:  what dia and wall thickness are the lift struts on      a

Firestar.. older , single seat model would be    fine 	


   

   Herb,

    

   Here are the dimensions of the early Original FireStar model:

    

   Strut = 2024-T3 Alum Tube 1-1/4" OD X .058" wall, with length to be    determined at assembly.

    

   Internal Sleeve = 2024-T3 Alum Tube 1-1/8" OD X .058" wall X 36"    long.

    

   Internal sleeve is to be centered in the strut and held in place with one    1/8" X 1/8" rivet.  It is important to place the rivet 41-1/2" from the    top end of the strut AND the rivet head toward the rear (or trailing edge) of    the strut.

    

   Lift strut fittings are attached to each end of the strut with 1/8" X    1/2" rivets.  5 rows of 5 rivets per row, spaced evenly around the    circumference of the tube.

    

   Hope this helps.

    

   Bill    Varnes

Original Kolb FireStar

Audubon NJ

Do Not    Archive



         See what's free at AOL.com.    

 	  Quote: 	
		  



http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

matronics.com



	
    

[b]

WhiskeyVictor36(at)aol.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:58 am Post subject: Firestar lift struts

In a message dated 4/20/2007 12:26:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  herbgh(at)juno.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I hoped    that they were 6061 t6 since I have quite an assortment of  that 	


 

 Herb,

  

 Just for your information, the specification of 2024-T3 which I gave you  was taken directly from the plans and material packing list.  I agree, it  would be best to ask someone at Kolb.

  

 Bill  Varnes

Original Kolb FireStar

Audubon NJ

Do Not  Archive



See what's free at AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

herbgh

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 145

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 9:08 am Post subject: Firestar lift struts

Hi Bill 

  

   Not doubting your word..  I knew you were correct and would not  speculate on a critical part of the airframe.. Thanks again,,,

  

    Given the difference in gross wt; I  need to chat with  Kolb  and I will be stopping by there next  week..   Will likely buy the material there. too.  

  

   As I said , Bryan built a single lift strut firefly and I need to  chat with him on some details.. Herb 

  

 On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 11:57:52 EDT WhiskeyVictor36(at)aol.com (WhiskeyVictor36(at)aol.com) writes:

 [quote]      In a message dated 4/20/2007 12:26:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,    herbgh(at)juno.com writes:

    	  Quote: 	
		  I      hoped that they were 6061 t6 since I have quite an assortment of    that 	


   

   Herb,

    

   Just for your information, the specification of 2024-T3 which I gave you    was taken directly from the plans and material packing list.  I agree, it    would be best to ask someone at Kolb.

    

   Bill    Varnes

Original Kolb FireStar

Audubon NJ

Do Not    Archive



         See what's free at AOL.com.    

 	  Quote: 	
		  



http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

matronics.com



	
    

[b]

Don G

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 156
Location: Central Illinois

Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:42 pm Post subject: Re: Firestar lift struts

I dont know if you will like these, but I built single struts for my FireFly a couple of years ago. They made a world of difference.



here is a link to the strut mod page on my FireFly builders site.



http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/strut_mod.htm



I consulted with Dennis Souder on the design of the attachment fittings, and followed his advise accordingly.

They have over 100 hours on em now....wouldnt even consider going back.

_________________
Don G.
Central Illinois
Kitfox IV Speedster
Luscombe 8A
RV9A

d-m-hague(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 4:59 pm Post subject: Firestar lift struts

At 07:42 PM 4/21/2007, Don G wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



I dont know if you will like these, but I built single struts for my 

FireFly a couple of years ago. They made a world of difference...


	


What is the advantage to the single strut?  Less drag I suppose, but the 

loss of stiffness (allowing wing twist) would seem to be a bad thing.



                         -Dana



do not archive



--

--

My software never has bugs. It just develops random features.

herbgh

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 145

Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:11 pm Post subject: Firestar lift struts

Don



  I remember your conversion.. and would have copied it save that I am

using h sections in my spar and the thru bolt.. using Ultra star ribs and

 the ultrastar h section..  



   Do you recall the major and minor axis for the streamlined tubing?  I

am guessing that they buy it from Mary Carlson.. She has the dies for 

two sizes..Herb 



On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 16:42:52 -0700 "Don G" <donghe(at)one-eleven.net>

writes:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I dont know if you will like these, but I built single struts for my 

 FireFly a couple of years ago. They made a world of difference.

 

 here is a link to the strut mod page on my FireFly builders site.

 

 http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/strut_mod.htm

 

 I consulted with Dennis Souder on the design of the attachment 

 fittings, and followed his advise accordingly.

 They have over 100 hours on em now....wouldnt even consider going 

 back.

 

 --------

 Don G

 FireFly#098

 

 http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=108364#108364

herbgh

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 145

Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:22 pm Post subject: Firestar lift struts

Dana

   I suspect that the reason for the dual lift strut on the firefly was

for weight considerations?  I am betting that Homer and Dennis built

several fireflies before they got one under part 103...??  A fantastic

little bird , I might add!! Love mine... 

  I  do not follow the loss of stiffness idea?   The wing is built  like

all other Kolbs  which have a single strut... Same spar as the Firestar..

   If there is a problem, I need to know ... I am esentially building a

shortened Ultrastar or Firestar wing...  Herb 

On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 20:58:36 -0400 Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net>

writes:

 	  Quote: 	

 At 07:42 PM 4/21/2007, Don G wrote:

 >

 >

 >I dont know if you will like these, but I built single struts for 

 my 

 >FireFly a couple of years ago. They made a world of difference...

 What is the advantage to the single strut?  Less drag I suppose, but 

 the 

 loss of stiffness (allowing wing twist) would seem to be a bad 

 thing.

                          -Dana

 do not archive

 --

 --

 My software never has bugs. It just develops random features.

possums(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:40 pm Post subject: Firestar lift struts

At 08:58 PM 4/21/2007, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

At 07:42 PM 4/21/2007, Don G wrote:

>

>

>I dont know if you will like these, but I built single struts for 

>my FireFly a couple of years ago. They made a world of difference...

What is the advantage to the single strut?  Less drag I suppose, but 

the loss of stiffness (allowing wing twist) would seem to be a bad thing.

                         -Dana

Ok - since it's Saturday and after 5:00 PM and most of the hard core 

Kolb guys have gone to

"Sun & Fun" , I'll comment here. My plane (half Kolb/half Fergy) and 

has connections for

both the single and double struts. You supposed right, less drag is 

the advantage,

Loss of 8 mph top end.

Wing twist is why they were ever there to start with. But it is very 

hard to twist the original Kolb wing/ribs. My plane

has original Kolb wing/ribs. However, I do put the doubles on 

occasionally when I might decide to do

something outside the envelope.  Fergy has taken them off all their 

planes (if you would want to know).

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a58r(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:48 pm Post subject: Firestar lift struts

Re: Ff double struts. Need the extra drag to comply w/ 103. dang  

shame, though.



regards,

Bob N.    FireFly 070 Old Kolb

http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/



do not archive...or do we do that anymore/

d-m-hague(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:59 pm Post subject: Firestar lift struts

At 09:20 PM 4/21/2007, herbgh(at)juno.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		      I suspect that the reason for the dual lift strut on the firefly was

for weight considerations?



   I  do not follow the loss of stiffness idea?   The wing is built  like

all other Kolbs  which have a single strut... Same spar as the Firestar..


	


Having dual struts resists twisting of the wing, and the expense of drag 

(vs. a single strut).  If there's only one strut (as in the Ultrastar), the 

wing structure itself has to resist all the twisting forces (as from 

aileron deflection).  A single strut attaching at two points is no stiffer 

than a single strut attaching at one point (unless the strut is VERY stiff, 

with a rigid connection to the crossbar).



                         -Dana



--

--

My software never has bugs. It just develops random features.

d-m-hague(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:59 pm Post subject: Firestar lift struts

At 09:47 PM 4/21/2007, Bob Noyer wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Re: Ff double struts. Need the extra drag to comply w/ 103. dang

shame, though.


	


Ah HA!  Is that really why?  Tricky, very tricky...



                                 -Dana



do not archive

--

--

My software never has bugs. It just develops random features.

possums(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 6:21 pm Post subject: Firestar lift struts

At 09:58 PM 4/21/2007, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  >Re: Ff double struts. Need the extra drag to comply w/ 103. dang

>shame, though.



Ah HA!  Is that really why?  Tricky, very tricky...



                                 -Dana


	


YES -

herbgh

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 145

Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 9:25 pm Post subject: Firestar lift struts

Hi Dana

  Understand now... The Firefly does not have dual lift struts in the

normal sense.. They both attach to the main 5 inch spar... 

   And I see in a later post what I now recall .. To add drag... part 103

consideration..  Herb 

    do not archive

On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 21:56:56 -0400 Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net>

writes:

 	  Quote: 	

 At 09:20 PM 4/21/2007, herbgh(at)juno.com wrote:

 >    I suspect that the reason for the dual lift strut on the 

 firefly was

 >for weight considerations?

 >

 >   I  do not follow the loss of stiffness idea?   The wing is built 

  like

 >all other Kolbs  which have a single strut... Same spar as the 

 Firestar..

 Having dual struts resists twisting of the wing, and the expense of 

 drag

Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 365

Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 6:47 am Post subject: Firestar lift struts

Sounds like you Guys got this one sorted out. 

  

 Yes the two struts were for drag for part 103.  Drag values were given  for different parts and tubes for the paper calculations.

  

 A conversion to a single strut with ONE connection would require a new  wing with an H section.

  

 Don, I like your mod, might use it on my FF. I get plenty af drag with my  Floats.

  

 This info comes via Bryan Melborn.

 Steve B

  



See what's free at AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

herbgh

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 145

Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:07 am Post subject: Firestar lift struts

Steve

   

    I installed Ultrastar H sections in my new Firefly wings..  Gonna use whatever lift strut/hardware  Bryan used when he built the  Fly for a guy in east Tenn.  I will do  a bit of streamlining on the  back part of the struts .      

  

  Herb 

  

  do not archive

  

 On Tue, 24 Apr 2007 10:47:01 EDT N27SB(at)aol.com (N27SB(at)aol.com) writes:

 [quote]   Sounds like you Guys got this one sorted out. 

    

   Yes the two struts were for drag for part 103.  Drag values were    given for different parts and tubes for the paper calculations.

    

   A conversion to a single strut with ONE connection would require a    new wing with an H section.

    

   Don, I like your mod, might use it on my FF. I get plenty af drag with my    Floats.

    

   This info comes via Bryan Melborn.

   Steve B

    

[b]

Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 365

Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:34 am Post subject: Firestar lift struts

In a message dated 4/24/2007 12:08:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  herbgh(at)juno.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     Steve

   

      I installed Ultrastar H sections in my new Firefly wings.    Gonna use whatever lift strut/hardware  Bryan used when he built the    Fly for a guy in east Tenn.  I will do  a bit of streamlining on the    back part of the struts .      

    

    Herb 

    

    do not archive

	


 

 Hi Herb 

  

 Sounds like the way to go if you built you wings that way.

  

 steve



See what's free at AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

Don G

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 156
Location: Central Illinois

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 1:22 pm Post subject: Re: Firestar lift struts

Herb,



((Do you recall the major and minor axis for the streamlined tubing? I 

am guessing that they buy it from Mary Carlson.. She has the dies for 

two sizes..Herb ))



No I dont recall the sizes I am afraid, I bought it from Wicks, and if I recall they told me it was the same size that CGS uses on the Hawk.

Probably 3 inchs or so major....but I will measure it next time I get to the hangar for you.



Steve....the drag reduction you get is pretty significant. And you might consider a smaller size in  steel streamlined tubeing, Could work even better. I Believe John Hawk told me once he used that on a Firestar with good results. In fact, As I remember, I got the Idea from him, and after I talked to Dennis Souder about the reasons for the dual struts in the first place. I had heard that it was for part 103 compliance and I didnt really believe that, So I called Dennis and he explained the whole deal to me. 

Considering you are hauling around those Pontoon logs, It oughtta help!!

I can tell you this, My FireFly is heavy, and my TOW sometimes is 550lbs and even at that weight, it will do 90mph WOT with a 2 blade 60 inch IVO set at 6250 static and 6450 WOT inflight. Cruises at a solid 75 around 5600

Naturally thats not all due to the struts, but the combination of struts, ducktail and enclosure of the cage all around. 

I had wheelpants on it for awhile, but they didnt seem to help it anymore. And when I put Hydraulic brakes on it with bigger tires, I took them off..(wouldnt fit anymore) didnt seem to notice a speed reduction. Obviously I dont fly it that fast very often. But when the need arises to show off, It does a good job of it. 

Last summer, I was leaving a fly-in and took off behind an L-2 and a Luscombe. They were traveling together. I kinda got in that show off mood, and about 5 miles out from the airfeild, I caught up and passed them. The guy in the Luscombe joined in and flew with me for a few miles, but the guy in the L2 was left in the dust! After a while, the guy in the Luscombe called a goodbye on the radio and went back to find his partner, who was long outta sight, but not out of radio range.  He kept asking the Luscombe pilot...IS that a damn ultralight up there?????

They talk about that RV grin...but that day I had a Kolb smile that lasted  a long, long time!

_________________
Don G.
Central Illinois
Kitfox IV Speedster
Luscombe 8A
RV9A

herbgh

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 145

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:59 pm Post subject: Firestar lift struts

Don



  Thanks... I will going by the Kolb factory next week.. Keep delaying !

   Hope to get  some tubing and such.. Better email Travis !  Herb 

do not archive

On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 14:22:05 -0700 "Don G" <donghe(at)one-eleven.net>

writes:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Herb,

 

 ((Do you recall the major and minor axis for the streamlined tubing? 

 I 

 am guessing that they buy it from Mary Carlson.. She has the dies 

 for 

 two sizes..Herb ))

 

 No I dont recall the sizes I am afraid, I bought it from Wicks, and 

 if I recall they told me it was the same size that CGS uses on the 

 Hawk.

 Probably 3 inchs or so major....but I will measure it next time I 

 get to the hangar for you.

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