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Priming - Sherwin Williams DTM

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rv10builder(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 7:29 am Post subject: Priming - Sherwin Williams DTM

Les;

Good day!

I called Sherwin Williams and asked what the proper surface prep for DTM 

wash Primer is. The Tech support gentleman (not the store) mentioned to use 

a water based cleaner like Simple Green, etc.. He advised not to use MEK, 

Acetone or any non water based cleaner as it does not properly prepare the 

surface for the DTM primer.

Probably not a problem for you but wanted to advise what SW told me today.

Regards!

Pascal

---

LloydDR(at)wernerco.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 7:55 am Post subject: Priming - Sherwin Williams DTM

I had heard never to use simple green around aluminum? Can someone

confirm or deny?

Dan

N289DT RV10E 



--

Vern(at)teclabsinc.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 8:19 am Post subject: Priming - Sherwin Williams DTM

Pascal,



If memory serves me regular Simply Green causes corrosion on aluminum.

Because of this, Simply Green came up with a formula for aircraft which

is not supposed to promote corrosion. I wonder which one he was

recommending.



Just food for thought,



Vern Smith (tailcone attachment #324)



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mritter509(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 8:24 am Post subject: Priming - Sherwin Williams DTM

I use Extreme Simple Green on the dirty side and it works great.  Directions 

on the bottle ok its use on aluminum.



Mark

N410MR



[quote]From: "Lloyd, Daniel R." <LloydDR(at)wernerco.com>

Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: RE: Priming - Sherwin Williams DTM

Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 11:55:20 -0400






I had heard never to use simple green around aluminum? Can someone

confirm or deny?

Dan

N289DT RV10E



--

rv10builder(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 10:24 am Post subject: Priming - Sherwin Williams DTM

For long term use one wants to use Extreme (aircraft friendly) 

http://www.simplegreen.com/pdfs/07_msds_extreme_aircraft.pdf simple green. 

The normal simple green supposedly showed problems after prolonged use. BUT 

for for cleaning and rinsing than it was fine.



Les;

He was suggesting ANY water based cleaner. Simple Green being the example he 

gave.

http://consumer.simplegreen.com/cons_prod_ori.php- General purpose cleaner 

info

http://consumer.simplegreen.com/cons_buy_canada.php- where to buy in Canada.



ANY aluminum cleaner that is water based is the key for the DTM wash primer, 

versus using a non water based chemical- at least per the manufacturer.



Pascal



Do not archive

---

rv10builder(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 10:35 am Post subject: Priming - Sherwin Williams DTM

Unfinished, uncoated or unpainted aluminum cleaned with Simple Green 

products should receive some sort of protectant after cleaning to prevent 

oxidation.



Aircraft Cleaning with Simple Green or Crystal Simple Green

Many private and commercial aircraft owners and operators have cleaned their 

craft with All-Purpose Simple Green or Crystal Simple Green® for many years. 

However, these products do not have Mil-Prf (military testing) authority. 

The testing involves very long (168 hours in one test) soaking of various 

metals in the solution and then a corrosion inspection. If an aircraft owner 

only wants to use mil-prf approved products; he will not want to use Simple 

Green. Please see the additional information under "Aluminum".



Aluminum - Is it safe to use Simple Green on aluminum?

Simple Green products have been successfully and safely used on aircraft, 

automotive, industrial and consumer aluminum items for over 20 years. 

However, caution and common sense must be used: Aluminum is a soft metal 

that easily corrodes with unprotected exposure to water. The aqueous-base 

and alkalinity of Simple Green or Crystal Simple Green can accelerate the 

corrosion process. Therefore, contact times of All-Purpose Simple Green and 

Crystal Simple Green with unprotected or unpainted aluminum surfaces should 

be kept as brief as the job will allow - never for more than 10 minutes. 

Large cleaning jobs should be conducted in smaller-area stages to achieve 

lower contact time. Rinsing after cleaning should always be extremely 

thorough - paying special attention to flush out cracks and crevices to 

remove all Simple Green/Crystal Simple Green residues. Unfinished, uncoated 

or unpainted aluminum cleaned with Simple Green products should receive some 

sort of protectant after cleaning to prevent oxidation.



He did mean the general purpose at the 1:30 ratio as he was talking general 

purpose cleaners not aircraft specific.



Thanks for asking Vern.



Pascal



---

MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 11:06 am Post subject: Priming - Sherwin Williams DTM

I've been scuffing with a Scotchbrite pad soaked in Coleman fuel and 

getting what appears to be satisfactory results with the DTM wash 

primer.  I'll try the SimpleGreen next.



I've worked to spray a thin coat but apparently got carried away.  My 

Tech Advisor observed that aluminum was  shining through on some of my 

pieces indicating the coat was too thin. There is a distinct shiny-ness 

that can be observed on surfaces where a heavier coat is needed.  What 

seems to happen is that the primer falls into the valleys of the scuff 

marks. The spec sheet for the primer states that it is not effective on 

sandblasted metals due to surface roughness.   Enough to fill the scuff 

profile is required (and easily done).  Therefore, I'm now using the 

finer Scotchbrite pad for the scuffing.



Vans says that the QB parts are primed with the same stuff (but without 

the greenish tint).  It's apparent that they are brushing it on rather 

than spraying.  Perhaps foam brushes?  Anyone with experience brushing 

the wash primer on?



Pascal wrote:

[quote] 



 Les;

 Good day!

 I called Sherwin Williams and asked what the proper surface prep for 

 DTM wash Primer is. The Tech support gentleman (not the store) 

 mentioned to use a water based cleaner like Simple Green, etc.. He 

 advised not to use MEK, Acetone or any non water based cleaner as it 

 does not properly prepare the surface for the DTM primer.

 Probably not a problem for you but wanted to advise what SW told me 

 today.

 Regards!

 Pascal

 ---

apilot2(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 12:00 pm Post subject: Priming - Sherwin Williams DTM

The regular Simple Green might be okay on a single sheet of aluminum

that was then thoroughly rinsed. The minute you introduce lap joints

and rivets you have no assurance you can in fact get all of the

substance off, and it is that residue in the joints that is the

corrosion risk. I'd like to know what the objection is to any of the

petro solvents that leave no residue, like toluene. Or you could

compromise with pure isopropyl alcohol, which is sorta water based,

and certainly not petro based.



On 5/10/07, Pascal <rv10builder(at)verizon.net> wrote:

[quote] 



 For long term use one wants to use Extreme (aircraft friendly)

 http://www.simplegreen.com/pdfs/07_msds_extreme_aircraft.pdf simple green.

 The normal simple green supposedly showed problems after prolonged use. BUT

 for for cleaning and rinsing than it was fine.



 Les;

 He was suggesting ANY water based cleaner. Simple Green being the example he

 gave.

 http://consumer.simplegreen.com/cons_prod_ori.php- General purpose cleaner

 info

 http://consumer.simplegreen.com/cons_buy_canada.php- where to buy in Canada.



 ANY aluminum cleaner that is water based is the key for the DTM wash primer,

 versus using a non water based chemical- at least per the manufacturer.



 Pascal



 Do not archive

 ---

rv10builder(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 12:30 pm Post subject: Priming - Sherwin Williams DTM

As Van's says in Chapter 5 "whatever you use, prepare the surface as per the 

manufacturers instructions". I am simply relaying that information per the 

manufacturer.

I'm fine with the Simple Green option, it's biodegradeable and less fumes. 

You do ask interesting questions however. Call SW and ask them. 800 33107979 

(US based).

Pascal



Do not archive

---

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 12:43 pm Post subject: Priming - Sherwin Williams DTM

Yes. As long as it is "Extreme" Simple Green (which was introduced at

OSH two years ago).  The problem was, and is technically known as

"Hydrogen Embrittlement".  The Faying action - Wicking of chemicals

(especially alkalines) does cause long term corrosion.  It is the

hardening of steel fasteners which is the big issue.  "Extreme" has been

reformulated.



The new Extreme Simple Green is now "Boeing approved".  The swelling

action of Tefzel wire insulation has been reduced as well.



Most of the problems come from improper or incomplete rinsing of

solvents and contaminates.  All aluminum immediately begins oxidation

once it dries.  That is why reasonably quick primering of exposed

surfaces is highly recommended for long term protective paint

application.



However to correct your last statement - Simple Green in the original

form (though used for years) was and remains VERBOTTEN on U.S. military

aircraft.  It is great for cleaning grease and hydro-carbon based

contaminates but it did allow Hydrogen Embrittlement. Understanding

faying action will show that it is not possible to flush out chemicals

once introduced and wicked into a joint or crack.



On this subject I will gladly wear a flame suit cause I did research

after A&P school and got to communicate direct with Simple Green's

president and worked with the Beta Version before public release for

Prime Time.



Don't use the old stuff - Boeing wouldn't allow it either.  "Extreme

Simple Green" or use other products.



John Cox - the Turbinator



--

rv10builder(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 1:31 pm Post subject: Priming - Sherwin Williams DTM

Thanks for the feedback. I should have mentioned I called ALL the 

maunfacturers before using anything. Sure "extreme" is fine full strength 

and even has anti corrosion bult into it, sure "General Purpose" SG is toxic 

to Aluminum full strength. When mixed per the instructions of 30:1 it is 

quite approved by Simple Green for pre priming. I cleaned, rinsed, 

compressed air dried it and primed all within 1 hour of each other.

What me worry? not a bit!

Thanks for the feedback.

Pascal

---

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