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willie.harrison(at)tinyon
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 Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 1:57 am Post subject: Europa Incident - 180 turns |
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Who knows what all the factors were in this tragic incident. However, it highlights the issue of turning back to the runway. John Brownlow, who did my conversion training for the Europa, told/showed me that you can do a safe 180 turn back from 300 feet (much lower than for many types). I practised a few times. I think I'll practise a few more times.
The early news reports suggested that the crash aircraft was between 200 and 300 feet when it turned back.
Willie
On 19 Jun 2007, at 01:45, Tom Friedland wrote:
[quote]A bit of information. Ken was very experienced and an airforce c-130 pilot/instructor. He flew his Europa frequently like once a week.
He took off West into the prevailing wind and to the West there is a large golf course under the approach to the runway. The crash site is between the runway and the golf course.
It seems strange. A pilot with his experience and one would think if he had an engine failure that he would elect the natural emegency site ahead. Can that mean that there was a control failure or perhaps a sudden medical cause? We may never know.
Tom
On 6/18/07, Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com (fklein(at)orcasonline.com)> wrote: | Quote: | Dave and Dale,
I offer my most sincere condolences to you and all the friends and
family of Ken Hill and his passenger. Since you two appear to have had
personal relationships with Ken, I hope you will continue to share any
information on the accident with the Europa community.
Fred
| Quote: | --> Europa-List message posted by: "D.Hetrick" < gdh(at)isp.com (gdh(at)isp.com)>
After reading about the crash, I called my friend Ken Hill who flies
out of Livermore. His wife Sandy, who was sobbing, told me it was,
in fact, her husband Ken who had died in the crash. Ken was a
terrific guy, former military pilot with a lot of hours. Another
terrible loss.
Dale Hetrick
|
On Sunday, June 17, 2007, at 09:44 AM, David DeFord wrote:
| Quote: | Mike,
Ken had long range tanks, which could have been installed at the time
of the crash. Here is a description of the tanks, which he posted
about a year ago:
The tanks are 6 gal. Evinrude Johnson "Duratank" from the local boat
dealer. I use quick disconnect fittings from Europa and the pump is
Facet 40105 from Aircraft Spruce. The tanks are strapped to the wing
tie bar for restraint.
I last saw Ken's airplane in his garage about a year ago, not long
after his return from a long trip, and the tanks were in the airplane
at that time. Whether he left them thereat all times, I don't know,
nor can I comment on the crash worthiness of the tie-downs he used to
hold them in place. I am only suggesting that the fire in this
accident might not be representative of what is likely to happen to
other Europas in a similar crash. (Third-hand accounts I have heard
of the accident say that the impact was nearly vertical.)
>
|
| Quote: | Dave DeFord
N135TD
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carl(at)flyers.freeserve.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 2:55 am Post subject: Europa Incident - 180 turns |
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Based on my experience of takeoff in the Europa (we only have the 80hp Fixed pitch) airspeed will only be in the region of 65 knots at this stage flaps down (we dont retract the flaps till 500 feet) .The steep bank that would be required for a 180 degree turn at such a height would almost certainly result the inboard wing stalling with inevitable results.
Glider pilots who have practiced winch failures at such a low height will know that 180 degree turns are killers. Anything under 500 feet and the only safe option is to land sraight ahead - sometimes a 90 degree turn may be possible if the field is large enough.
While its impossible to predict the outcome of landing ahead even in shrub or bush the likelyhood is that the occupants of a Europa crash would walk away from it. Such a crash occurred about three years ago in Alderney - (Channel Islands) and the occupants survived with few injuries.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
[quote] ---
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willie.harrison(at)tinyon
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 3:02 am Post subject: Europa Incident - 180 turns |
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Jeremy
It was idling. Has anyone got any other data?
Regards
Willie
On 19 Jun 2007, at 11:27, Jeremy Davey wrote:
| Quote: |
Willie,
Was John’s demonstration with the prop stopped, or engine idling? It’s my understanding that a stationary prop (particularly one which is not feathered) significantly increases the rate of descent.
Regards,
Jeremy
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of William HarrisonSent: 19 June 2007 10:57To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)Subject: Re: Europa Incident - 180 turns
Who knows what all the factors were in this tragic incident. However, it highlights the issue of turning back to the runway. John Brownlow, who did my conversion training for the Europa, told/showed me that you can do a safe 180 turn back from 300 feet (much lower than for many types). I practised a few times. I think I'll practise a few more times.
The early news reports suggested that the crash aircraft was between 200 and 300 feet when it turned back.
Willie
On 19 Jun 2007, at 01:45, Tom Friedland wrote:
A bit of information. Ken was very experienced and an airforce c-130 pilot/instructor. He flew his Europa frequently like once a week.
He took off West into the prevailing wind and to the West there is a large golf course under the approach to the runway. The crash site is between the runway and the golf course.
It seems strange. A pilot with his experience and one would think if he had an engine failure that he would elect the natural emegency site ahead. Can that mean that there was a control failure or perhaps a sudden medical cause? We may never know.
Tom
On 6/18/07, Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com (fklein(at)orcasonline.com)> wrote:
Dave and Dale,I offer my most sincere condolences to you and all the friends andfamily of Ken Hill and his passenger. Since you two appear to have had personal relationships with Ken, I hope you will continue to share anyinformation on the accident with the Europa community.Fred> --> Europa-List message posted by: "D.Hetrick" < gdh(at)isp.com (gdh(at)isp.com)>>> After reading about the crash, I called my friend Ken Hill who flies> out of Livermore. His wife Sandy, who was sobbing, told me it was,> in fact, her husband Ken who had died in the crash. Ken was a > terrific guy, former military pilot with a lot of hours. Another> terrible loss.> Dale HetrickOn Sunday, June 17, 2007, at 09:44 AM, David DeFord wrote:> Mike,> > Ken had long range tanks, which could have been installed at the time > of the crash. Here is a description of the tanks, which he posted> about a year ago:> > The tanks are 6 gal. Evinrude Johnson "Duratank" from the local boat> dealer. I use quick disconnect fittings from Europa and the pump is > Facet 40105 from Aircraft Spruce. The tanks are strapped to the wing> tie bar for restraint.> > I last saw Ken's airplane in his garage about a year ago, not long> after his return from a long trip, and the tanks were in the airplane > at that time. Whether he left them thereat all times, I don't know,> nor can I comment on the crash worthiness of the tie-downs he used to> hold them in place. I am only suggesting that the fire in this > accident might not be representative of what is likely to happen to> other Europas in a similar crash. (Third-hand accounts I have heard> of the accident say that the impact was nearly vertical.)> > Dave DeFord> N135TD--This message has been scanned for viruses anddangerous content by MailScanner, and isbelieved to be clean.
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willie.harrison(at)tinyon
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 3:23 am Post subject: Europa Incident - 180 turns |
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Carl,
Yes, below some magic height the 180 turn back will be a killer in any aircraft, but different for every aircraft. Above that height it might be a lifesaver. So, what is the height for various permutations of airspeed, flap, weight, prop status etc?
I can only say that I was always able to do a safe 180 at 75kts, flaps up (trigear, 100HP) in about 250 feet when I practised.
When it all goes quiet, we don't have long to think about it so a personal rule of thumb about when and when not to attempt a turn back is worth deriving in advance from the comfort of our armchairs.
What other views/data has anyone got?
Willie
On 19 Jun 2007, at 11:54, Carl Pattinson wrote:
[quote]Based on my experience of takeoff in the Europa (we only have the 80hp Fixed pitch) airspeed will only be in the region of 65 knots at this stage flaps down (we dont retract the flaps till 500 feet) .The steep bank that would be required for a 180 degree turn at such a height would almost certainly result the inboard wing stalling with inevitable results.
Glider pilots who have practiced winch failures at such a low height will know that 180 degree turns are killers. Anything under 500 feet and the only safe option is to land sraight ahead - sometimes a 90 degree turn may be possible if the field is large enough.
While its impossible to predict the outcome of landing ahead even in shrub or bush the likelyhood is that the occupants of a Europa crash would walk away from it. Such a crash occurred about three years ago in Alderney - (Channel Islands) and the occupants survived with few injuries.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
[quote]---
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raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 4:24 am Post subject: Europa Incident - 180 turns |
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It is very human and natural reaction to turn back
and try to save the plane and make a day.
If you land straight ahead you will probably survive
but your beautiful plane will be broken more or less.
If you turn back you may get killed but if everything
goes well, you will fly again in the same day
(after refueling or what so ever).
What a problem to make decision in a few seconds.
Break your baby or take a risk of death.
Personally, I have decided not to turn back in any case
below 600 feet (engine quit situation). Of course I am
not sure can I keep my decision in a real life case.
After this once-again-sad-Europa-accident I noticed
I will definetely not to tell it to my wife any more.
This is too much. This is not fun. This is a bad shadow.
There are let´s say couple of hundreds of flying Europas.
How many of them are destroyed until this day during the years?
5% ? 10% ?
I would like to see a list of accidents. I wanna study the mechanisms.
Maybe this kind of list could save a soul or couple. Europa safety officer?
What about RV`s - how many serioush accidents in a year?
What about comparison with certified aircrafts?
This is how I learned to fly Europa: I keep the speed nailed to 75 knots MINIMUM.
in every phase of landing circuit. There is a good reserve against gusts and failures.
When landing it is 75 knots until ground effect and height about 3 feets.
Then slowing until stalling to the ground. Also my minimum climbing speed is 75 knots.
With that speed I have managed to land to the "runway" 300 m /1000 feet.
I did also some emergency landings with standing prop (it stopped
windmilling below 80 knots in my case [912S & Warp Drive]).
Sidewind 90 degrees was 9 knots but runway was in that case giant.
Ground loop was very near - tail wheel marked the asphalt with black rubber and was screaming.
Regards, Raimo
=============
Raimo M W Toivio
OH-XRT Europa XS Mono #417, test flying, 11 hours & 41 succesful landings
OH-CVK C172 Skyhawk, engine overhauling
OH-BLL Beechcraft C45, w radial engines (grounded)
37500 Lempaala
Finland
tel + 358 3 3753 777
fax + 358 3 3753 100
gsm + 358 40 590 1450
raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi (raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi)
www.rwm.fi
[quote] ---
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Paul Boulet
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 57
Location: Malibu, California
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 5:13 am Post subject: Europa Incident - 180 turns |
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Hi all;
Just my 2 cents. I must stress how important it is to fly the 180 with your prop windmilling (insanity to shut the engine down). I owned a Cessna 172 for many years and at altitude practiced the turn back. You actually turn more than 180 degrees- something like 210 if I recall so that you can fly back to the runway. Then you have to turn 30 degrees in opposite direction to line back up with r-way centerline. In my Cessna I recall losing some 800 feet of altitude- possibly more (it's been awhile). Upon takeoff I would call out "decision height" even if no one else was listening as a reminder of whether I would control crash straight ahead... or turn back to r-way.
Keep the shiny side up;
Paul Boulet, N914PB, Maliboulet, California
Raimo Toivio <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi> wrote:
[quote] It is very human and natural reaction to turn back
and try to save the plane and make a day.
If you land straight ahead you will probably survive
but your beautiful plane will be broken more or less.
If you turn back you may get killed but if everything
goes well, you will fly again in the same day
(after refueling or what so ever).
What a problem to make decision in a few seconds.
Break your baby or take a risk of death.
Personally, I have decided not to turn back in any case
below 600 feet (engine quit situation). Of course I am
not sure can I keep my decision in a real life case.
After this once-again-sad-Europa-accident I noticed
I will definetely not to tell it to my wife any more.
This is too much. This is not fun. This is a bad shadow.
There are let´s say couple of hundreds of flying Europas.
How many of them are destroyed until this day during the years?
5% ? 10% ?
I would like to see a list of accidents. I wanna study the mechanisms.
Maybe this kind of list could save a soul or couple. Europa safety officer?
What about RV`s - how many serioush accidents in a year?
What about comparison with certified aircrafts?
This is how I learned to fly Europa: I keep the speed nailed to 75 knots MINIMUM.
in every phase of landing circuit. There is a good reserve against gusts and failures.
When landing it is 75 knots until ground effect and height about 3 feets.
Then slowing until stalling to the ground. Also my minimum climbing speed is 75 knots.
With that speed I have managed to land to the "runway" 300 m /1000 feet.
I did also some emergency landings with standing prop (it stopped
windmilling below 80 knots in my case [912S & Warp Drive]).
Sidewind 90 degrees was 9 knots but runway was in that case giant.
Ground loop was very near - tail wheel marked the asphalt with black rubber and was screaming.
Regards, Raimo
=============
Raimo M W Toivio
OH-XRT Europa XS Mono #417, test flying, 11 hours & 41 succesful landings
OH-CVK C172 Skyhawk, engine overhauling
OH-BLL Beechcraft C45, w radial engines (grounded)
37500 Lempaala
Finland
tel + 358 3 3753 777
fax + 358 3 3753 100
gsm + 358 40 590 1450
raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi (raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi)
www.rwm.fi
[quote] ---
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raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:33 am Post subject: Europa Incident - 180 turns |
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When I practised Europa emergency landings
with standing prop my height was 1000 feet
from the ground when in downwind.
I keeped it clean until over landing place in final.
So I could be sure to reach estimated target.
Any lower and I would not feel comfortable.
Raimo; no Europa-experience much yet but building it fast
[quote] ---
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alan(at)kestrel-insurance
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 8:20 am Post subject: Europa Incident - 180 turns |
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Another useful piece of advice is to always use the FULL amount of runway available (even if it is a large commercial airport). I once had an engine failure after doing a go around from an ILS approach. I had climbed to 200 ft when the engine quit, but luckily I had enough runway ahead of me to just about get it back on the ground safely. If you can get to 200 ft agl with remaining runway available then it way worth the long taxi to the end before departing should the noise stop!
Just my opinion based on personal experience.
Alan
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Harrison
Sent: 19 June 2007 12:22
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Europa Incident - 180 turns
Carl,
Yes, below some magic height the 180 turn back will be a killer in any aircraft, but different for every aircraft. Above that height it might be a lifesaver. So, what is the height for various permutations of airspeed, flap, weight, prop status etc?
I can only say that I was always able to do a safe 180 at 75kts, flaps up (trigear, 100HP) in about 250 feet when I practised.
When it all goes quiet, we don't have long to think about it so a personal rule of thumb about when and when not to attempt a turn back is worth deriving in advance from the comfort of our armchairs.
What other views/data has anyone got?
Willie
On 19 Jun 2007, at 11:54, Carl Pattinson wrote:
Based on my experience of takeoff in the Europa (we only have the 80hp Fixed pitch) airspeed will only be in the region of 65 knots at this stage flaps down (we dont retract the flaps till 500 feet) .The steep bank that would be required for a 180 degree turn at such a height would almost certainly result the inboard wing stalling with inevitable results.
Glider pilots who have practiced winch failures at such a low height will know that 180 degree turns are killers. Anything under 500 feet and the only safe option is to land sraight ahead - sometimes a 90 degree turn may be possible if the field is large enough.
While its impossible to predict the outcome of landing ahead even in shrub or bush the likelyhood is that the occupants of a Europa crash would walk away from it. Such a crash occurred about three years ago in Alderney - (Channel Islands) and the occupants survived with few injuries.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
| Quote: |
----- Original Message -----
From: William Harrison (willie.harrison(at)tinyonline.co.uk)
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 10:56 AM
Subject: Re: Europa Incident - 180 turns
Who knows what all the factors were in this tragic incident. However, it highlights the issue of turning back to the runway. John Brownlow, who did my conversion training for the Europa, told/showed me that you can do a safe 180 turn back from 300 feet (much lower than for many types). I practised a few times. I think I'll practise a few more times.
The early news reports suggested that the crash aircraft was between 200 and 300 feet when it turned back.
Willie
On 19 Jun 2007, at 01:45, Tom Friedland wrote:
A bit of information. Ken was very experienced and an airforce c-130 pilot/instructor. He flew his Europa frequently like once a week.
He took off West into the prevailing wind and to the West there is a large golf course under the approach to the runway. The crash site is between the runway and the golf course.
It seems strange. A pilot with his experience and one would think if he had an engine failure that he would elect the natural emegency site ahead. Can that mean that there was a control failure or perhaps a sudden medical cause? We may never know.
Tom
On 6/18/07, Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com (fklein(at)orcasonline.com)> wrote:
Dave and Dale,
I offer my most sincere condolences to you and all the friends and
family of Ken Hill and his passenger. Since you two appear to have had
personal relationships with Ken, I hope you will continue to share any
information on the accident with the Europa community.
Fred
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "D.Hetrick" < gdh(at)isp.com (gdh(at)isp.com)>
>
> After reading about the crash, I called my friend Ken Hill who flies
> out of Livermore. His wife Sandy, who was sobbing, told me it was,
> in fact, her husband Ken who had died in the crash. Ken was a
> terrific guy, former military pilot with a lot of hours. Another
> terrible loss.
> Dale Hetrick
On Sunday, June 17, 2007, at 09:44 AM, David DeFord wrote:
> Mike,
>
> Ken had long range tanks, which could have been installed at the time
> of the crash. Here is a description of the tanks, which he posted
> about a year ago:
>
> The tanks are 6 gal. Evinrude Johnson "Duratank" from the local boat
> dealer. I use quick disconnect fittings from Europa and the pump is
> Facet 40105 from Aircraft Spruce. The tanks are strapped to the wing
> tie bar for restraint.
>
> I last saw Ken's airplane in his garage about a year ago, not long
> after his return from a long trip, and the tanks were in the airplane
> at that time. Whether he left them thereat all times, I don't know,
> nor can I comment on the crash worthiness of the tie-downs he used to
> hold them in place. I am only suggesting that the fire in this
> accident might not be representative of what is likely to happen to
> other Europas in a similar crash. (Third-hand accounts I have heard
> of the accident say that the impact was nearly vertical.)
>
> Dave DeFord
> N135TD
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
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18/06/2007 15:02
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Brian Davies
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 124
Location: uk
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 9:16 am Post subject: Europa Incident - 180 turns |
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Raimo,
When someone joins the Europa Club I send a CD of useful data that includes a number of AAIB and NTSB reports on Europa incidents and accidents plus a number of related incidents that have significance to our aircraft type e.g composite construction issues.
Brian Davies, Europa Club membership sec.
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Raimo Toivio
Sent: 19 June 2007 15:37
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Europa Incident - 180 turns
When I practised Europa emergency landings
with standing prop my height was 1000 feet
from the ground when in downwind.
I keeped it clean until over landing place in final.
So I could be sure to reach estimated target.
Any lower and I would not feel comfortable.
Raimo; no Europa-experience much yet but building it fast
[quote] ---
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willie.harrison(at)tinyon
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 10:01 am Post subject: Europa Incident - 180 turns |
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Brian and Mike (G)
Any idea when we can expect the full AAIB report on the UK accident?
Willie
On 19 Jun 2007, at 18:15, Brian Davies wrote:
[quote]Raimo,
When someone joins the Europa Club I send a CD of useful data that includes a number of AAIB and NTSB reports on Europa incidents and accidents plus a number of related incidents that have significance to our aircraft type e.g composite construction issues.
Brian Davies, Europa Club membership sec.
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Raimo ToivioSent: 19 June 2007 15:37To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)Subject: Re: Europa Incident - 180 turns
When I practised Europa emergency landings
with standing prop my height was 1000 feet
from the ground when in downwind.
I keeped it clean until over landing place in final.
So I could be sure to reach estimated target.
Any lower and I would not feel comfortable.
Raimo; no Europa-experience much yet but building it fast
[quote]---
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m.j.gregory(at)talk21.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 11:56 am Post subject: Europa Incident - 180 turns |
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Willie
Francis Donaldson, Chief Engineer of the PFA, told me last Friday that the AAIB were unlikely to publish anything soon, when I asked that specific question.
AAIB reports normally take many months. For example, the report on the crash of N8027U at Kemble on 25th March 2005 was published in early 2006.
The AAIB do, however, keep in close touch with the regulatory and airworthiness authorities and provide them with preliminary information as to the likely cause, especially where there is preventative action such as inspection, change of operating/handling instructions or potential modifications which may improve safety.
Regards
Mike
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Harrison
Sent: 19 June 2007 18:59
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Europa Incident - 180 turns
Brian and Mike (G)
Any idea when we can expect the full AAIB report on the UK accident?
Willie
On 19 Jun 2007, at 18:15, Brian Davies wrote:
Raimo,
When someone joins the Europa Club I send a CD of useful data that includes a number of AAIB and NTSB reports on Europa incidents and accidents plus a number of related incidents that have significance to our aircraft type e.g composite construction issues.
Brian Davies, Europa Club membership sec.
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Raimo Toivio Sent: 19 June 2007 15:37 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com) Subject: Re: Europa Incident - 180 turns
When I practised Europa emergency landings
with standing prop my height was 1000 feet
from the ground when in downwind.
I keeped it clean until over landing place in final.
So I could be sure to reach estimated target.
Any lower and I would not feel comfortable.
Raimo; no Europa-experience much yet but building it fast
| Quote: |
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Boulet (possibletodo(at)yahoo.com)
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: Europa Incident - 180 turns
Hi all;
Just my 2 cents. I must stress how important it is to fly the 180 with your prop windmilling (insanity to shut the engine down). I owned a Cessna 172 for many years and at altitude practiced the turn back. You actually turn more than 180 degrees- something like 210 if I recall so that you can fly back to the runway. Then you have to turn 30 degrees in opposite direction to line back up with r-way centerline. In my Cessna I recall losing some 800 feet of altitude- possibly more (it's been awhile). Upon takeoff I would call out "decision height" even if no one else was listening as a reminder of whether I would control crash straight ahead... or turn back to r-way.
Keep the shiny side up;
Paul Boulet, N914PB, Maliboulet, California
Raimo Toivio <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi (raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi)> wrote:
| Quote: |
It is very human and natural reaction to turn back
and try to save the plane and make a day.
If you land straight ahead you will probably survive
but your beautiful plane will be broken more or less.
If you turn back you may get killed but if everything
goes well, you will fly again in the same day
(after refueling or what so ever).
What a problem to make decision in a few seconds.
Break your baby or take a risk of death.
Personally, I have decided not to turn back in any case
below 600 feet (engine quit situation). Of course I am
not sure can I keep my decision in a real life case.
After this once-again-sad-Europa-accident I noticed
I will definetely not to tell it to my wife any more.
This is too much. This is not fun. This is a bad shadow.
There are let´s say couple of hundreds of flying Europas.
How many of them are destroyed until this day during the years?
5% ? 10% ?
I would like to see a list of accidents. I wanna study the mechanisms.
Maybe this kind of list could save a soul or couple. Europa safety officer?
What about RV`s - how many serioush accidents in a year?
What about comparison with certified aircrafts?
This is how I learned to fly Europa: I keep the speed nailed to 75 knots MINIMUM.
in every phase of landing circuit. There is a good reserve against gusts and failures.
When landing it is 75 knots until ground effect and height about 3 feets.
Then slowing until stalling to the ground. Also my minimum climbing speed is 75 knots.
With that speed I have managed to land to the "runway" 300 m /1000 feet.
I did also some emergency landings with standing prop (it stopped
windmilling below 80 knots in my case [912S & Warp Drive]).
Sidewind 90 degrees was 9 knots but runway was in that case giant.
Ground loop was very near - tail wheel marked the asphalt with black rubber and was screaming.
Regards, Raimo
=============
Raimo M W Toivio
OH-XRT Europa XS Mono #417, test flying, 11 hours & 41 succesful landings
OH-CVK C172 Skyhawk, engine overhauling
OH-BLL Beechcraft C45, w radial engines (grounded)
37500 Lempaala
Finland
tel + 358 3 3753 777
fax + 358 3 3753 100
gsm + 358 40 590 1450
raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi (raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi)
www.rwm.fi
| Quote: |
----- Original Message -----
From: William Harrison (willie.harrison(at)tinyonline.co.uk)
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 2:22 PM
Subject: Re: Europa Incident - 180 turns
Carl,
Yes, below some magic height the 180 turn back will be a killer in any aircraft, but different for every aircraft. Above that height it might be a lifesaver. So, what is the height for various permutations of airspeed, flap, weight, prop status etc?
I can only say that I was always able to do a safe 180 at 75kts, flaps up (trigear, 100HP) in about 250 feet when I practised.
When it all goes quiet, we don't have long to think about it so a personal rule of thumb about when and when not to attempt a turn back is worth deriving in advance from the comfort of our armchairs.
What other views/data has anyone got?
Willie
On 19 Jun 2007, at 11:54, Carl Pattinson wrote:
Based on my experience of takeoff in the Europa (we only have the 80hp Fixed pitch) airspeed will only be in the region of 65 knots at this stage flaps down (we dont retract the flaps till 500 feet) .The steep bank that would be required for a 180 degree turn at such a height would almost certainly result the inboard wing stalling with inevitable results.
Glider pilots who have practiced winch failures at such a low height will know that 180 degree turns are killers. Anything under 500 feet and the only safe option is to land sraight ahead - sometimes a 90 degree turn may be possible if the field is large enough.
While its impossible to predict the outcome of landing ahead even in shrub or bush the likelyhood is that the occupants of a Europa crash would walk away from it. Such a crash occurred about three years ago in Alderney - (Channel Islands) and the occupants survived with few injuries.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
| Quote: |
----- Original Message -----
From: William Harrison (willie.harrison(at)tinyonline.co.uk)
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 10:56 AM
Subject: Re: Europa Incident - 180 turns
Who knows what all the factors were in this tragic incident. However, it highlights the issue of turning back to the runway. John Brownlow, who did my conversion training for the Europa, told/showed me that you can do a safe 180 turn back from 300 feet (much lower than for many types). I practised a few times. I think I'll practise a few more times.
The early news reports suggested that the crash aircraft was between 200 and 300 feet when it turned back.
Willie
On 19 Jun 2007, at 01:45, Tom Friedland wrote:
A bit of information. Ken was very experienced and an airforce c-130 pilot/instructor. He flew his Europa frequently like once a week.
He took off West into the prevailing wind and to the West there is a large golf course under the approach to the runway. The crash site is between the runway and the golf course.
It seems strange. A pilot with his experience and one would think if he had an engine failure that he would elect the natural emegency site ahead. Can that mean that there was a control failure or perhaps a sudden medical cause? We may never know.
Tom
On 6/18/07, Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com (fklein(at)orcasonline.com)> wrote:
Dave and Dale,
I offer my most sincere condolences to you and all the friends and
family of Ken Hill and his passenger. Since you two appear to have had
personal relationships with Ken, I hope you will continue to share any
information on the accident with the Europa community.
Fred
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "D.Hetrick" < gdh(at)isp.com (gdh(at)isp.com)>
>
> After reading about the crash, I called my friend Ken Hill who flies
> out of Livermore. His wife Sandy, who was sobbing, told me it was,
> in fact, her husband Ken who had died in the crash. Ken was a
> terrific guy, former military pilot with a lot of hours. Another
> terrible loss.
> Dale Hetrick
On Sunday, June 17, 2007, at 09:44 AM, David DeFord wrote:
> Mike,
>
> Ken had long range tanks, which could have been installed at the time
> of the crash. Here is a description of the tanks, which he posted
> about a year ago:
>
> The tanks are 6 gal. Evinrude Johnson "Duratank" from the local boat
> dealer. I use quick disconnect fittings from Europa and the pump is
> Facet 40105 from Aircraft Spruce. The tanks are strapped to the wing
> tie bar for restraint.
>
> I last saw Ken's airplane in his garage about a year ago, not long
> after his return from a long trip, and the tanks were in the airplane
> at that time. Whether he left them thereat all times, I don't know,
> nor can I comment on the crash worthiness of the tie-downs he used to
> hold them in place. I am only suggesting that the fire in this
> accident might not be representative of what is likely to happen to
> other Europas in a similar crash. (Third-hand accounts I have heard
> of the accident say that the impact was nearly vertical.)
>
> Dave DeFord
> N135TD
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
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believed to be clean.
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davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 12:05 pm Post subject: Europa Incident - 180 turns |
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Carl, You may have a trigear which makes some difference to my thoughts on
this question, which are for what they are worth that it makes sense to get
the flaps up as soon as you have reasonable speed (for me 60kts). In my mono
I can climb at probably four times the rate when flaps are up compared with
flaps down, so that the time that I spend in that awkward height band where
you can only land ahead (even if you don't like any of what's ahead) is
drastically reduced. Regards, David Joyce G-XSDJ
---
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ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 1:24 pm Post subject: Europa Incident - 180 turns |
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Hi Europians,
As a europa colleague pointed out to me about 180 turns back, last night.
' Engine failure after take-off; carry on to the hospital or turn back to the cemetery"
Certainly a phrase to keep in mind when faced with a similar situation.
Tim
Tim Ward
12 Waiwetu Street,
Fendalton,
Christchurch, 8052
New Zealand
Ph +64 3 3515166
Mobile 021 0640221
ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz (ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz)
[quote] [b]
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raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 1:51 am Post subject: Europa Incident - 180 turns |
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Brian, exellent!
I have been a member "always"
but haven´t got the CD
(maybe there was not yet a
CD-invention in those early days!).
Please send it me now!
Thank you, Raimo
==============
Raimo M W Toivio
OH-XRT Europa XS Mono #417, test flying
OH-CVK C172 Skyhawk, engine overhauling
OH-BLL Beechcraft C45, w radial engines (grounded)
37500 Lempaala
Finland
tel + 358 3 3753 777
fax + 358 3 3753 100
gsm + 358 40 590 1450
raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi (raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi)
www.rwm.fi
[quote] ---
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alan(at)kestrel-insurance
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:31 am Post subject: Europa Incident - 180 turns |
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Hi Brian
I wouldn’t mind a copy of that CD also if possible.
Kind Regards
Alan Burrows
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Raimo Toivio
Sent: 20 June 2007 10:55
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Europa Incident - 180 turns
Brian, exellent!
I have been a member "always"
but haven´t got the CD
(maybe there was not yet a
CD-invention in those early days!).
Please send it me now!
Thank you, Raimo
==============
Raimo M W Toivio
OH-XRT Europa XS Mono #417, test flying
OH-CVK C172 Skyhawk, engine overhauling
OH-BLL Beechcraft C45, w radial engines (grounded)
37500 Lempaala
Finland
tel + 358 3 3753 777
fax + 358 3 3753 100
gsm + 358 40 590 1450
raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi (raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi)
www.rwm.fi
[quote]
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mp.gamble(at)tiscali.co.u
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 12:46 pm Post subject: Europa Incident - 180 turns |
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Hi Brian, I would appreciate a copy of the CD you mentioned if you still have them.
Thanks and regards
Mike Gamble
XS mono #440
[quote] ---
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Fergus Kyle
Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 291
Location: Burlington ON Canada
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 5:08 pm Post subject: Europa incident - 180 turns |
|
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After such a dire event it is natural to read many shots of
well-meaning advice. Some of it (accompanied by 300 lines of former text) is
good advice, some pure drivel. That story about a windmilling propeller MUST
mean the engine is turning it because the energy to windmill otherwise is a
terrible loss over a standing prop.
I disagree with NEVER TURN BACK, having lost some good friends to a
panic in a perfectly recoverable engine failure. Wait for it......
Someone mentioned checking the overrun area. Bang on.
Only one wise writer seemed to mention the fifth thing is DROP THE
NOSE.
The first thing is finding out what's off the end of the runway.
Nowadays Google is a perfect tool if personal sight won't do it. So ALWAYS
KNOW WHAT'S OFF THE END.
The second thing is EXPECT ENGINE FAILURE ON EVERY TAKE-OFF and know
what you are going to do every tiny second of it. When it doesn't happen,
relax slightly - you did the right thing.
The third thing is - DON'T CLIMB AWAY TOO EARLY. Why did early jet
drivers clean up and hold low all the way down the runway? Yup. You can
easily zoom up and do what you have to, to get her back on terra firma with
220 knots clean. That was before ejection seats and hardhats.
The fourth thing is MANOEUVRE TO ADVANTAGE OF CROSSWIND. Why insist
on early climb-out right down the centreline if you don't have to? Why not
climb slightly down wind so a turn into wind gives you lift advantage
(admittedly not a great thing in a EUPA - but SOME advantage) - if it fits.
That's why the fifth thing is drop the nose.
The engine quits. Hey!
Good thing I was ready.
Fortunately I used all the runway I needed to get this 80 knots.
The nose is already down - maybe 30 degrees down -that's a 45degree
pitchover..
Good thing the field of wheat is slightly right.
Lucky thing I chose to go slightly left when I got some height.
Now I'm in the very best position to choose my fate, and might even save the
aircraft.
The NOSE DOWN move is the fifth thing because one should done the other four
first.................
And the 180 is the sixth thing.
Happy motoring.
Ferg
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Brian Davies
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 124
Location: uk
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:56 pm Post subject: Europa Incident - 180 turns |
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Quite a number of Europa Club members have asked for a copy of the club CD that includes safety information. The club has decided to put this information in the members only area of the club website so that it can be accessible to all members and be regularly updated. Hopefully it will be in place next week.
Brian Davies, membership sec.
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Gamble
Sent: 20 June 2007 21:43
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Europa Incident - 180 turns
Hi Brian, I would appreciate a copy of the CD you mentioned if you still have them.
Thanks and regards
Mike Gamble
XS mono #440
[quote] ---
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