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cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:01 am Post subject: EAA Criticism

Last week, I criticized the EAA for "charging for everything" and "doing

little", though my criticism of the EAA was measured, mostly by the good

done by the local chapter.  Please "unmeasure" my criticism of the

National EAA Organization.  Please read the suck-up comments by

Proberenzy.



http://www.airventure.org/2007/4wed25/blakey.html



You are heaping accolades on Blakey by, and I quote, "During Marion

Blakey's tenure as FAA chief," says EAA President Tom Poberezny, "EAA

has enjoyed the best and most collaborative relationship with the FAA in

EAA's 55-year history.  



Good gawd man, save what little dignity, respect and credibility that

you may have the good fortune to retain. The fact is, hHere is a

political appointee that has been doing the water-carrying for

Commercial Aviation/ATA in trying to shove user fees down our throats

while giving rate cuts, tax breaks and give-backs to the Airlines.  



Mr. Proberezny, please see Phil Boyer, AOPA President. You will be

humbled in his presence.  He actually has the stones to confront Blakey

on this world-class bad idea, rather than sucking up.  I am embarrased

for you.



Chuck Jensen

jmsears(at)adelphia.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:02 pm Post subject: EAA Criticism

As much as I agree with you, you should send this to the EAA instead of 

preaching to the choir.    Thankfully, the message from Phil Boyer of 

AOPA has been better about user fees, and such.  I'm not sure how much the 

EAA has done in the battle; but, my money has been on AOPA and some of the 

other organizations that have taken the lead in the fight for all of GA.



Sadly, if it were not a requirement for me to be an EAA member to be a Tech 

Counselor or a Young Eagles pilot, I'm not sure I'd remain in the EAA.  I 

can assure you, I'd give letting my membership lapse a thought.  It wouldn't 

be the first time I've done it.  I guess it does some good things for us; 

but, sometimes I just don't know why I stay in.



Jim in KY

do not archive



---

ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:31 pm Post subject: EAA Criticism

Chuck Jensen wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Last week, I criticized the EAA for "charging for everything" and "doing

 little", though my criticism of the EAA was measured, mostly by the good

 done by the local chapter.  Please "unmeasure" my criticism of the

 National EAA Organization.  Please read the suck-up comments by

 Proberenzy.

 

 http://www.airventure.org/2007/4wed25/blakey.html

 

 You are heaping accolades on Blakey by, and I quote, "During Marion

 Blakey's tenure as FAA chief," says EAA President Tom Poberezny, "EAA

 has enjoyed the best and most collaborative relationship with the FAA in

 EAA's 55-year history.  

 

 Good gawd man, save what little dignity, respect and credibility that

 you may have the good fortune to retain. The fact is, hHere is a

 political appointee that has been doing the water-carrying for

 Commercial Aviation/ATA in trying to shove user fees down our throats

 while giving rate cuts, tax breaks and give-backs to the Airlines.  

 

 Mr. Proberezny, please see Phil Boyer, AOPA President. You will be

 humbled in his presence.  He actually has the stones to confront Blakey

 on this world-class bad idea, rather than sucking up.  I am embarrased

 for you.

 

 Chuck Jensen


	


Hi Chuck,



I intended to email you privately & say you had no reason to back down 

from your previous little jab related to wireless internet access, but 

before I have a chance, this stuff shows up.



Thanks for keeping us informed.



Anyone who thinks Chuck's previous prediction about wireless access was 

misguided should read Bob Collins' 'diary' blog about OSH. In it, he 

reports on that wireless access. If I read his report correctly, the 

only reason it's free this year is that they tried to charge last year & 

it wasn't properly set up. This year is a test run & if coverage is 

adequate, it will be fee based again next year.



(Do I hear an apology from the 'faithful'?)



Charlie

(Last thread of OSH support broken several years ago by the Homebuilt HQ 

guy having to yell over the Jet Truck to tell me that the budget just 

couldn't cover supplying 'Oshkosh Pilot' pins any more.)

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:25 pm Post subject: Re: EAA Criticism

Don't take what I say about the wireless as gospel. We're just a bunch of folks sitting around in the evening in the camp going on what we heard about what we heard about what we heard.



I did get an email from EAA reminding that EAA and SnF are two separate organizations, and that there are no present plans to charge; that the effort this year is to evaluate how it went and take it from there regarding expansion.



Will EAA charge? Do I have a smoking gun to answer the question beyond a shadow of a doubt? No.



Will EAA charge?  Oh yes. But I wouldn't blame them. I presume it costs them to provide it and I've seen no evidence that the goal of the organization is to cut its profit margin.



Service, btw, has been spotty from day to day. Definitely a good thing to have though.

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

jabowenjr(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:34 am Post subject: EAA Criticism

What is Tom Poberezny's annual salary. I can't remember, but it seemed 

fairly impressive to me when I heard it. There seems to be large amounts of 

dollars involved in the EAA. This is probably a good thing, but, isn't part 

of promoting aviation protecting what we already have?



Jim Bowen

Rv-8



_________________________________________________________________

Local listings, incredible imagery, and driving directions - all in one 

place! http://maps.live.com/?wip=69&FORM=MGAC01

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:43 am Post subject: Re: EAA Criticism

 	  jabowenjr(at)hotmail.com wrote: 	
		  What is Tom Poberezny's annual salary. I can't remember, but it seemed 

fairly impressive to me when I heard it. There seems to be large amounts of 

dollars involved in the EAA. This is probably a good thing, but, isn't part 

of promoting aviation protecting what we already have?



Jim Bowen

Rv-8

	




It was in the tax filing I uploaded yesterday. If memory serves, about $450,000. Given the slobs out there making million and millions to run their companies into bankruptcy, I can't begrudge him that salary.



His father gets something like $160,000 (but don't quote me; I may be off.

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

jpl(at)showpage.org
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:13 am Post subject: EAA Criticism

Salary plus benefits were close to $500k.  Plus I bet a bunch of  

hidden benefits like lots of free flight time in lots of fun airplanes.



But that's not completely out of line for the president of a $30-mil  

a year organization.



-J



On Jul 31, 2007, at 12:32 PM, JAMES BOWEN wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 What is Tom Poberezny's annual salary. I can't remember, but it  

 seemed fairly impressive to me when I heard it. There seems to be  

 large amounts of dollars involved in the EAA. This is probably a  

 good thing, but, isn't part of promoting aviation protecting what  

 we already have?



 Jim Bowen

 Rv-8

cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:51 am Post subject: EAA Criticism

I concur that $500K for the size operation is not out of line.  The two

areas of concern is references to "deferred compensation".  What does

that mean and to whom?  And then, of course, nepotism is always an issue

on an organization run by a dominate person.  What exactly does his

father do for $160,000?  How many other brothers, sisters, mothers,

sons, daughters and other misc. kin and buddies are on the payroll?  Are

they earning their keep or just feeding at the trough?



Non-profit management has an even higher fiduciary responsibility than a

publicly held company and massively more so than for a privately held

one.  It would be comforting to see disclosure of all of the

beneficiaries of this non-profit.  If $500K is Proberenzy's

compensation, lock, stock and barrel, that seems reasonable.  If its

just he iceberg showing above the water, then there could be a problem.

Inquiring minds, including dues payers, would like to know!



Chuck Jensen



--

n212pj(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:13 pm Post subject: EAA Criticism

Haven't looked, but is this a non-profit or a not-for-profit.  The latter

simply has to show a zero profit.  How they got there could be any number of

ways, including salaries.  John Jessen



do not archive



--

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:16 pm Post subject: Re: EAA Criticism

There might be a brother on the payroll somewhere. I don't really care. But in terms of significant salary and jobs, a lot of that is answered on the 990, the link to which I posted yesterday.



I presume that deferred compensation includes 403Bs and, again, that's all listed there on the form.



I presume also that people will consider the salary too much but it might be worth asking what the president does to earn it.



Poberezny. Well, he started it. The EAA brand belongs to him. As with any business, a significant asset is the goodwill. Guess who's responsible for that significant asset. Damn right he should get a piece of the action.



Still, I'm not really sure what the complaint is here. $19 a night to camp... $22 buck to get into the grounds.   Seriously. What's the big flippin' deal here?  That it's too much?



I can think of a million things associated with this hobby of mine that is more out of whack with "real people."



And, yeah, Garmin, I'm talking about you. (g)

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:44 pm Post subject: EAA Criticism

Bob,



I agree that Garmin and Jeppesen hold a "special" place in our

hearts....real special. There isn't a flippin' problem with EAA--some

are just wondering why they are setting on $50,000,000 and what they

intend to do with it?  How many years of NOT CHARGING EXPERIMENTAL

AIRCRAFT OWNERS for registering would the 50 mil cover?  Quite a few I

would think.  



Yes, Proberenzy may have been instrumental in developing the brand, but

not everyone is pleased with the direction the brand is headed--he's

responsible for that too.  And to say he owns the franchise may be a bit

broad. Or maybe its a matter of "Proberenzy's Company" makin' so much

money that he doesn't give a flip about those dues payin' experimental

aircraft builders and owners that was the bedrock foundation of the EAA.

I think we all agree, AirVenture is expensive enough, but not

necessarily outrageously so. No one cares, other than symbolically,

whether the shuttle is 50-cents or not.  The real question here is 'why

are they setting on $50,000,000 and what are they going to do with it?'

If their only goal is to turn $50,000,000 into $70,000,000, then that's

a problem?  Is there truly mission to serve the EAA community...or is

that a cover to just make more money?



Chuck Jensen



--

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:59 pm Post subject: Re: EAA Criticism

 	  cjensen(at)dts9000.com wrote: 	
		  are just wondering why they are setting on $50,000,000 and what they

intend to do with it?  How many years of NOT CHARGING EXPERIMENTAL

AIRCRAFT OWNERS for registering would the 50 mil cover?  Quite a few I

would think.  	




If they are sitting on $50 million, I would hope they're doing so as an endowment, which would be a very, very prudent thing to do.  Ideally, real ideally, you want any return on assets -- i.e. interest -- to cover your operating expenses so you don't have to dip into the endowment (kind of like what we all want our IRAs to do).



You know, I was at the "surviving force landings" forum (which I wrote about here 



http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/2007/07/surviving-forced-landings.html



and the guy did a survey. "How many people are under 70?" A lot of hands, but not all, went up. "Under 60?" Still the majority of hands up.



"Under 50?" A minority of hands, but still a lot



"40?"  Maybe a dozen, maybe two dozen



"30?" Maybe 6



"20?"  Two.



That may have been the most eye-opening moment for me at Oshkosh for it crystalized the coming crisis in general aviation. I think EAA is in that same situation, of course, so if there is a pot of money that could help the organization weather the up-and-down, year-to-year problems I see in *my* non-profit (where it's like they just discover the budget process every March), I think that's all to the good.



I really don't think we're looking at the United Way scandal here. 



Also, keep in mind the EAA museum is now free, year round, for EAA members, so clearly there's been an effort to give breaks to the members. 



I get a pretty good magazine -- yeah, I know, that's a separate issue for a lot of folks who seem to want to get mimeographed, stapled newsletters in the mail again (g) -- for $40. 



Besides, did you walk down the 24 hour generator area at Oshkosh? Where's the evidence THOSE folks are hurting?  



Now maybe if we're going to start an EAA profit-sharing plan, we start with people who camp in tents!!!!

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

jpl(at)showpage.org
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:46 pm Post subject: EAA Criticism

On Jul 31, 2007, at 3:59 PM, Bob Collins wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Now maybe if we're going to start an EAA profit-sharing plan, we  

 start with people who camp in tents!!!!


	


Yes!  The EAA could donate to my "swap out an RV-6A kit for an RV-7A  

kit" fund.



-J

acepilot(at)bloomer.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:51 pm Post subject: EAA Criticism

According to the tax form, Paul gets $78,000 and Tom gets about 

$418,000.  $418K seems pretty Steep for the President of a NON-PROFIT 

place.  For a Fortune 500 company, it would be small... do not archive

Scott

http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/

Gotta Fly or Gonna Die

Building RV-4 (Super Slow Build Version)

Bob Collins wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

jabowenjr(at)hotmail.com wrote:

>What is Tom Poberezny's annual salary. I can't remember, but it seemed 

>fairly impressive to me when I heard it. There seems to be large amounts of 

>dollars involved in the EAA. This is probably a good thing, but, isn't part 

>of promoting aviation protecting what we already have?

>

>Jim Bowen

>Rv-8

>

>    

>

It was in the tax filing I uploaded yesterday. If memory serves, about $450,000. Given the slobs out there making million and millions to run their companies into bankruptcy, I can't begrudge him that salary.

His father gets something like $160,000 (but don't quote me; I may be off.

--------

Bob Collins

St. Paul, Minn.

RV Builder's Hotline (free!)

http://rvhotline.expercraft.com

Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126653#126653

Terry Watson

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 290
Location: Seattle, WA USA

Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:55 pm Post subject: EAA Criticism

OK, THIS part I find revealing:



"Given the slobs out there making million and millions to run their

companies into bankruptcy, I can't begrudge him that salary."



So firemen are the guys we pay year after year to let our buildings burn

down? Lifeguards are the ones we pay to let our kids drown? No, they are the

ones we hire to try to prevent the bad things from happening. 



The "slobs" (presumably C.E.O.s) are often the problem solvers willing to

take the risks necessary to salvage shareholder's equity by trying to save a

dying company. Like any high risk job or investment, the rewards are

commensurate with the risk. A very few might deserve your smear, but the

broad brush you use to paint the fine detail here might as well be a paint

roller. 



Terry

--

acepilot(at)bloomer.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:02 pm Post subject: EAA Criticism

See 

http://www.abbott-langer.com/index.cfm?FuseAction=Summary.ShowSummary&PID=59



Here is a chart from the above webpage...



Table 1: Random list of positions (representing each major function 

group [for non profit orgs]) out of a total 300 positions included in 

the report.



Position 	Total compensation*

2006 	2007

Chief Executive Officer 	$212,895 	$219,649

Chief Operating Officer 	$154,382 	$159,062

Top Legal Officer 	$146,760 	$149,892

Top Administrative Officer 	$134,166 	$137,149

Top Financial Officer 	$132,548 	$136,870

Engineering Manager 	$85,341 	$86,464

Systems & Programming Manager 	$76,805 	$77,834

Marketing Director 	$73,427 	$74,440

Financial Analysis Manager 	$71,648 	$72,621

Art Director 	$66,432 	$67,097

Librarian Head 	$62,604 	$63,427

Manager Retail Store 	$57,120 	$58,538

Employee Training Supervisor 	$56,037 	$56,745

Historic Sites Administrator 	$51,827 	$52,409

Psychiatrist 	$163,762 	$166,424

General Practitioner 	$129,761 	$130,867

Fundraising Director 	$101,117 	$104,196

Psychologist 	$59,617 	$60,429

Audiologist 	$55,747 	$56,649

Systems Analyst Lead 	$68,640 	$69,543

Lead Computer Programmer 	$67,722 	$68,629

Systems Analyst 	$53,435 	$54,106

Applications Programmer 	$52,527 	$53,205

LAN/WAN Administrator 	$49,493 	$50,129

Attorney Corporate 	$74,426 	$75,472

Computer System Hardware Analyst 	$63,875 	$64,708

Producer 	$59,838 	$60,697

Labor Relations Specialist 	$54,564 	$55,280

Human Resources Advisor 	$54,380 	$55,056

Sales Product Manager 	$71,125 	$72,067

Sales Area Manager 	$58,501 	$59,315

Fundraiser 	$51,885 	$52,512

Sales Representative (General) 	$40,693 	$41,275

Membership Solicitor 	$35,989 	$36,500

Secretary to CEO 	$44,254 	$44,824

Grant Coordinator 	$41,186 	$41,788

Museum Exhibit Designer 	$37,767 	$38,314

Interpreter 	$36,323 	$36,835

Administrative Assistant 	$34,133 	$34,638

Re-Recording Mixer 	$33,923 	$34,450

Clay Modeler 	$33,592 	$34,097

Still Photographer 	$33,561 	$34,069

Scheduler Museums 	$30,902 	$31,319

Computer Operator 	$30,731 	$31,153

* Includes base annual salary, plus all cash bonuses and/or cash profit 

sharing.



Source: "(Summary of All Nonprofits - 2007" " (Summary of All Nonprofits 

- 2006, Abbott, Langer Association Surveys 

<http://www.abbott-langer.com/> 1725 I Street NW, Suite 300, Washington, 

DC 20006 USA  Telephone: (877) 210-6563, Fax: (877) 239-2457 E-Mail: 

info(at)abbott-langer.com http://www.abbott-langer.com 

<http://www.abbott-langer.com/>



do not archive



Scott

http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/

Gotta Fly or Gonna Die

Building RV-4 (Super Slow Build Version)



Joseph Larson wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Salary plus benefits were close to $500k.  Plus I bet a bunch of  

 hidden benefits like lots of free flight time in lots of fun airplanes.



 But that's not completely out of line for the president of a $30-mil  

 a year organization.



 -J



 On Jul 31, 2007, at 12:32 PM, JAMES BOWEN wrote:



> 

>

> What is Tom Poberezny's annual salary. I can't remember, but it  

> seemed fairly impressive to me when I heard it. There seems to be  

> large amounts of dollars involved in the EAA. This is probably a  

> good thing, but, isn't part of promoting aviation protecting what  we 

> already have?

>

> Jim Bowen

> Rv-8

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:09 pm Post subject: Re: EAA Criticism

 	  Terry Watson wrote: 	
		  The "slobs" (presumably C.E.O.s) are often the problem solvers willing to

take the risks necessary to salvage shareholder's equity by trying to save a

dying company. 	




You didn't ask, but I'll tell you anyway. I was thinking specifically of NWA CEO Doug Steenland when I wrote that.



Yes, I would put him in the category of "slobs." All he's done is broken unions, ruined families, stranded passengers, and -- oh yeah -- accepted the $26 million dollars for the great job he did running his company into bankruptcy.



Sorry. No sale.

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

acepilot(at)bloomer.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:10 pm Post subject: EAA Criticism

The one thing that concerns me is that as President, Tom gets paid well 

for a position listed as 40+ hours a week and every other officer gets 

$0 and is listed as <10 hours a week.  Does Tom do EVERYTHING himself?  

Of course, there are paid employees, but not other paid officers.  Paul 

is Chairman of the Board (listed as about $78K, not $160K).  do not archive



Scott

http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/

Gotta Fly or Gonna Die

Building RV-4 (Super Slow Build Version)



Chuck Jensen wrote:



[quote]



I concur that $500K for the size operation is not out of line.  The two

areas of concern is references to "deferred compensation".  What does

that mean and to whom?  And then, of course, nepotism is always an issue

on an organization run by a dominate person.  What exactly does his

father do for $160,000?  How many other brothers, sisters, mothers,

sons, daughters and other misc. kin and buddies are on the payroll?  Are

they earning their keep or just feeding at the trough?



Non-profit management has an even higher fiduciary responsibility than a

publicly held company and massively more so than for a privately held

one.  It would be comforting to see disclosure of all of the

beneficiaries of this non-profit.  If $500K is Proberenzy's

compensation, lock, stock and barrel, that seems reasonable.  If its

just he iceberg showing above the water, then there could be a problem.

Inquiring minds, including dues payers, would like to know!



Chuck Jensen



--

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:19 pm Post subject: Re: EAA Criticism

If we cut his salary in half, we could pass the savings along to all the EAA members. Then it'd only cost $21.95 to get into AirVenture. (g)

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:52 pm Post subject: Re: EAA Criticism

Just for the heck of it, I looked up Phil Boyer's salary today. The 990 for AOPA hasn't been updated since 2005 but with today compensation looks to be about $590,000.



If we're going to string both of these guys up, can we please WAIT until after they win the user fee battle for us? (g)

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

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