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P-mag wiring
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jgold4747(at)yahoo.com
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:25 am    Post subject: P-mag wiring Reply with quote

There was some discussion on this list while Bob was out of town in August about the pros and cons of his wiring approach for P-mags (Figure Z-33) vs. the "factory" approach. Bob, any comments on this matter? (I'm getting very close to needing to make a final decision about this...)

John Goldsmith (RV-7A, serious panel planning starting)


to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. [quote][b]


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:18 am    Post subject: P-mag wiring Reply with quote

John,

I would be surprised if this response doesn't get deleted. The last couple I have submitted have not been posted. But:

Referencing P/E mags I would like to make a comment.
The following comments are my opinions.

The wiring diagrams in Bob's Z figures don't agree with the way the P/E mag
folks say to wire their products.

I think it is likely that some of the problems experienced with P/E mags is
because they were wired wrong.

I suggest that if your going to use P/E mags wire them like Emagair says and
follow their directions.

Mike


[quote] ---


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 11:09 pm    Post subject: P-mag wiring Reply with quote

I have been thinking about P-mag wiring recently since I will also be doing it shortly. My instinct is to follow E-mag's wiring, however it does cause more switches than I really want, to control them.

My thought was this. If you had a 2-50 switch wired so that:

- in the bottom position with the master on, the P-mag was powered, buty the P-lead off.
- in the middle position (and this is the normal flying position) the power and P-lead is on.
- in the top, momentary, position the power is cut. (To test the self generation.)

This would appear to overcome what I percieve as e-mag's reservation. They want power on the things before the P-lead is switched on, except for the momentary test of the self generation.

Can anyone see a problem? It appears to me to provide for everything AND the switching occur in the order E-mag want?

Thanks, Steve.


On 22/09/2007, Michael T. Ice <aurbo(at)ak.net (aurbo(at)ak.net)> wrote: [quote] John,

I would be surprised if this response doesn't get deleted. The last couple I have submitted have not been posted. But:

Referencing P/E mags I would like to make a comment.
The following comments are my opinions.

The wiring diagrams in Bob's Z figures don't agree with the way the P/E mag
folks say to wire their products.

I think it is likely that some of the problems experienced with P/E mags is
because they were wired wrong.

I suggest that if your going to use P/E mags wire them like Emagair says and
follow their directions.

Mike


[quote] ---


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klehman(at)albedo.net
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:00 am    Post subject: P-mag wiring Reply with quote

Steve
FWIW I consider it good cockpit design to have all non guarded switches
full up in the normal position. It may be asking for operator error to
expect one to discern the middle position especially at night or when
checking quickly by feel. So if this works electrically I'd suggest
adding guards that force the switch to the center position when closed.
Ken

Steve Sampson wrote:

Quote:
I have been thinking about P-mag wiring recently since I will also be
doing it shortly. My instinct is to follow E-mag's wiring, however it
does cause more switches than I really want, to control them.

My thought was this. If you had a 2-50 switch wired so that:

- in the bottom position with the master on, the P-mag was powered,
buty the P-lead off.
- in the middle position (and this is the normal flying position) the
power and P-lead is on.
- in the top, momentary, position the power is cut. (To test the self
generation.)

This would appear to overcome what I percieve as e-mag's reservation.
They want power on the things before the P-lead is switched on, except
for the momentary test of the self generation.

Can anyone see a problem? It appears to me to provide for everything
AND the switching occur in the order E-mag want?

Thanks, Steve.



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lamphere(at)vabb.com
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:25 am    Post subject: P-mag wiring Reply with quote

Steve,

I have a P-Mag and E-mag that I will be using in my Tailwind. This summer I wired up (90%) my panel and after much consideration did the following:

E-Mag power supplied by the EBUS -> circuit breaker -> E-Mag

P-Mag power supplied by the EBUS -> circuit breaker -> momentary off / normally on SPDT switch (I can get the number if you need it) -> P-Mag

P leads to both units are connected to a "standard" key ignition switch with the ground connection to one "mag" removed at the start position (no need to have this with the E/P-Mags).

Of course with the EBUS alt feed switch "off", power is supplied to anything on the EBUS when the master switch is on.

That's the way I am proceeding...

Dave


[quote] ---


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:21 am    Post subject: P-mag wiring Reply with quote

Ken, I see your point and would agree normally, but bearing in mind that I was talking about a momentary switch where it only is full up while you hold it there (to cut the power and test the self generation capability) and it then returns to the middle, do you still see that as an objection? I plan to tuck them in under the panel, its a -4, where nothing will fall down on them, but well in line of sight.. Since they are on their own it will not be visually odd. Thanks, Steve.

On 24/09/2007, Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net (klehman(at)albedo.net)> wrote: [quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net (klehman(at)albedo.net)>

Steve
FWIW I consider it good cockpit design to have all non guarded switches
full up in the normal position. It may be asking for operator error to
expect one to discern the middle position especially at night or when
checking quickly by feel. So if this works electrically I'd suggest
adding guards that force the switch to the center position when closed.
Ken

Steve Sampson wrote:

[quote] I have been thinking about P-mag wiring recently since I will also be
doing it shortly. My instinct is to follow E-mag's wiring, however it
does cause more switches than I really want, to control them.

My thought was this. If you had a 2-50 switch wired so that:

- in the bottom position with the master on, the P-mag was powered,
buty the P-lead off.
- in the middle position (and this is the normal flying position) the
power and P-lead is on.
- in the top, momentary, position the power is cut. (To test the self
generation.)

This would appear to overcome what I percieve as e-mag's reservation.
They want power on the things before the P-lead is switched on, except
for the momentary test of the self generation.

Can anyone see a problem? It appears to me to provide for everything
AND the switching occur in the order E-mag want?

Thanks, Steve. [quote][b]


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:02 am    Post subject: P-mag wiring Reply with quote

Hi Steve
A momentary up position switch does sound a bit better if you can find
such a thing but personally I'd still consider such an arrangement to be
not the best. I'd pefer a flip up guard or a separate push to test
button if failure of a separate button would not fail the mag. Another
option that appeals to me would be a lift lock switch that acts like a
two position switch but has to be lifted or pulled to select the third
position. Those come in spring loaded versions as well but either way I
like some arrangement that still lets you confirm the normal on position
by touch alone. Maybe I'm silly but my experience is that we see what
we expect to see and sometimes actually touching and applying pressure
to a switch while checking it reveals that it wasn't where we thought it
was. Certainly the angle of view of the switch is a factor as well. It
is often easier to ascertain a switch positon on the far side of the
cockpit than for the switch directly in front of you. Many pilot errors
are a direct predictable result of poor cockpit design.
Ken

Steve Sampson wrote:

Quote:
Ken, I see your point and would agree normally, but bearing in mind
that I was talking about a momentary switch where it only is full up
while you hold it there (to cut the power and test the self generation
capability) and it then returns to the middle, do you still see that
as an objection? I plan to tuck them in under the panel, its a -4,
where nothing will fall down on them, but well in line of sight..
Since they are on their own it will not be visually odd. Thanks, Steve.

On 24/09/2007, Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net <mailto:klehman(at)albedo.net>> wrote:


<mailto:klehman(at)albedo.net>>

Steve
FWIW I consider it good cockpit design to have all non guarded
switches
full up in the normal position. It may be asking for operator
error to
expect one to discern the middle position especially at night or when
checking quickly by feel. So if this works electrically I'd suggest
adding guards that force the switch to the center position when
closed.
Ken

Steve Sampson wrote:

> I have been thinking about P-mag wiring recently since I will
also be
> doing it shortly. My instinct is to follow E-mag's wiring,
however it
> does cause more switches than I really want, to control them.
>
> My thought was this. If you had a 2-50 switch wired so that:
>
> - in the bottom position with the master on, the P-mag was powered,
> buty the P-lead off.
> - in the middle position (and this is the normal flying
position) the
> power and P-lead is on.
> - in the top, momentary, position the power is cut. (To test the
self
> generation.)
>
> This would appear to overcome what I percieve as e-mag's
reservation.
> They want power on the things before the P-lead is switched on,
except
> for the momentary test of the self generation.
>
> Can anyone see a problem? It appears to me to provide for everything
> AND the switching occur in the order E-mag want?
>
> Thanks, Steve.



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:03 am    Post subject: P-mag wiring Reply with quote

At 09:26 AM 9/24/2007 -0400, you wrote:

Quote:
Steve,

I have a P-Mag and E-mag that I will be using in my Tailwind. This summer
I wired up (90%) my panel and after much consideration did the following:

E-Mag power supplied by the EBUS -> circuit breaker -> E-Mag

P-Mag power supplied by the EBUS -> circuit breaker -> momentary off /
normally on SPDT switch (I can get the number if you need it) -> P-Mag

Electrical items needed for operation of the engine should
be fed from a battery bus. If you have elctrical system problems
and need to shut the master OFF, then you don't want the engine
to stop.

Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:34 pm    Post subject: P-mag Wiring Reply with quote

[img]cid:image001.jpg(at)01C7FEAF.7F99DB70[/img]
I’m also in the process of wiring up my dual p-mags. Given the concerns on this thread and others I’m not comfortable with the best way to proceed. I’ve generally followed the Z-11 architecture (batt bus, ebus and main bus) and have the dual 2-10 and a 1-3 switches to install the pmag wiring per Fig. Z-33 “Maintenance / Hand Prop Option for E-Mags / PMags”.
I’m aware that Emagaire recommends a wiring diagram that seems quite different than Fig. Z-33. I must admit I don’t understand all of the issues in wiring the manufacturer’s way vs. that given in Fig. Z-33 and would sincerely appreciate any help I can get on the single most important wiring in my project.
Regards,
Les Davis


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 1:06 pm    Post subject: P-mag Wiring Reply with quote

Les,
Follow the folks that make them and use their wiring system. It is different then the Z-11 & 33 but it's the way Emagair suggests. You can't go wrong using the manufactures wiring diagram. Why do it differently when the Z-11 & 33 schematic offer no advantage.
Mike ice
---


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:11 pm    Post subject: P-mag wiring Reply with quote

Bob,

Are you saying that WHILE YOU ARE IN FLIGHT the time it takes to switch off
master and switch on Ebus (less than 2 seconds - even with shaking hands -
the switches are next to each other), that the prop will stop before the
Emag will work??? ... and by the way, I'm using a P-Mag also - I believe
that will be happy without power as long as the engine is above low idle...

Seems OK to me... what am I missing??

Dave
---


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:25 pm    Post subject: P-mag Wiring Reply with quote

I hate to draw this out - but - according to the installation manual, page 20, we are only talking about one +13.8vdc lead, a circuit breaker and a test switch (for a PMag, none required for an EMag) plus the necessary ground. That said, you will note that the manual schematic shows the +13.8v dc lead coming from the battery contactor (main bus). IF you ever have to shut down the main bus (disengage the contactor) and you don't have an alternate source for EMag power... well, you get the picture.... If you have 2 P-Mags and they are working - no need to be concerned...

It really isn't THAT complicated an issue.

Dave
[quote] ---


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:50 pm    Post subject: P-mag wiring Reply with quote

At 07:08 PM 9/24/2007 -0400, you wrote:

Quote:

<lamphere(at)vabb.com>

Bob,

Are you saying that WHILE YOU ARE IN FLIGHT the time it takes to switch
off master and switch on Ebus (less than 2 seconds - even with shaking
hands - the switches are next to each other), that the prop will stop
before the Emag will work??? ... and by the way, I'm using a P-Mag also -
I believe that will be happy without power as long as the engine is above
low idle...

Seems OK to me... what am I missing??

Dave

If you have smoke in the cockpit that "smells electrical" then
there's nothing to tell you that the smoke is NOT coming from an
e-bus powered accessory. The prudent thing is to remove ALL practical
power from the ship's systems . . . practical meaning that
electrically dependent engines should NOT be deprived of energy
when everything else is.

Once order is restored in the cockpit, the pilot is certainly
free to begin "troubleshooting". Turning things on one at
a time, etc. I strongly discourage this activity while
airborne. Get the stuff out of your flight bag (you DO
have good stuff in your flight bag . . . no?) and get on
the ground before you start investigating the source of the
smoke.

It's not a matter of being able to change configuration by
repositioning switches. It's a matter of getting ship's wires
to max cold and getting on the ground without breaking a
sweat. Therefor the recommendation is that any device the engine
depends on for operation (hence banned from the list of
candidates for practical shutdown) should be powered from an
always hot battery bus.

Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:38 pm    Post subject: P-mag wiring Reply with quote

This is my very last comment on this matter.

Reading your last email kind of makes me sorry I ever went to the bother to
incorporate an EBus in my system. I made a mistake thinking it was to insure
you could continue the flight long enough to safely get on the ground.
According to this last response, that's not the reason.

I guess could have just stuck with switches for each item and eliminated the
extra components and complexity (like diode arrays, multiple bus "bars",
switches, etc.)

Too bad I didn't get involved with this discussion sooner.. like 6 months
ago...

Maybe it's not too late to redo the panel in a simpler version before
installation.

Dave

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:12 pm    Post subject: P-mag wiring Reply with quote

At 11:38 PM 9/24/2007 -0400, you wrote:

Quote:

<lamphere(at)vabb.com>

This is my very last comment on this matter.

Reading your last email kind of makes me sorry I ever went to the bother
to incorporate an EBus in my system. I made a mistake thinking it was to
insure you could continue the flight long enough to safely get on the
ground. According to this last response, that's not the reason.

I guess could have just stuck with switches for each item and eliminated
the extra components and complexity (like diode arrays, multiple bus
"bars", switches, etc.)

Too bad I didn't get involved with this discussion sooner.. like 6 months
ago...

Maybe it's not too late to redo the panel in a simpler version before
installation.

Dave

I'm sorry that you're disappointed but I'm mystified as
to why. The architectures offered in the Z-figures and
the rationale for what equipment items should drive from
which bus seems pretty straight-forward. You didn't not
mention which Z-figure you were incorporating. Z-13/8?
If it makes you feel better, put the emags on what ever
bus you like . . . it's your airplane. But I'd like to
understand how we failed to help you understand the functionality
of all the features within the z-figures. Have you
read chapter 17?

The e-bus was crafted to offer a minimum power consumption
dual power path mode for endurance . . . it has NOTHING to
do with getting safely on the ground. Getting safely on the
ground is the responsibility of the pilot knowing exactly what the
limits are for his/her options. Limits are determined by
hardware selection, architecture selection and most important,
preventative maintenance of the battery so that you can
confidently fly right up to those limits.

Smoke in the cockpit is rare and unique event that supercedes
wear-out failures in importance. The e-bus minimizes loads
for continued flight to airport of intended destination.
The procedure for dealing with smoke makes no pretenses
about continued flight. It's time to come down NOW and
with a minimum of electrical hardware powered up.

Drop the e-bus if you like. Drop the second alternator
if you find that too complex. But run your engine goodies
of the battery bus no matter which architecture you choose.

Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:30 pm    Post subject: P-mag Wiring Reply with quote

Dave, It is very simple, except Bob's proposed wiring, abuses one preference "by the good folk at EW-magair". E-mag's preference is that the mag is always powered (presumably the firmware initialised) BEFORE the P-lead is opened. They presumably have knowledge of how they wrote the code and the reason why they say this.

Bob on the other hand has never explained, to my very limited knowledge, how he can ignore this preference, and how it interacts with the code initialisation.. Bob?

It was for this reason that I asked if anyone could see a problem with a 2-50 type switch which I described before:

- in the bottom position with the master on, the P-mag was powered, but the P-lead off.
- in the middle position (and this is the normal flying position) the power and P-lead is on.
- in the top, momentary position, the power is cut. (To test the self generation.) The P-lead remains on.

Operating this way the P-mag would see power once the master is on. It would only loose power from the battery when the engine is running and you switch to the self generation test. P-mag condone that.

The one important assumption I am making with my proposal, is that as you move from the bottom to the midle position, the power cant 'flutter' for an instant, and the P-lead connected, BEFORE the power connection is remade. I presume with these switches the connection is not lost, however briefly? Bob, if you are reading this can you confirm my understanding of how the contacts move in these switvches?

Thanks, Steve.




On 25/09/2007, David & Elaine Lamphere <lamphere(at)vabb.com (lamphere(at)vabb.com)> wrote: [quote] I hate to draw this out - but - according to the installation manual, page 20, we are only talking about one +13.8vdc lead, a circuit breaker and a test switch (for a PMag, none required for an EMag) plus the necessary ground. That said, you will note that the manual schematic shows the +13.8v dc lead coming from the battery contactor (main bus). IF you ever have to shut down the main bus (disengage the contactor) and you don't have an alternate source for EMag power... well, you get the picture.... If you have 2 P-Mags and they are working - no need to be concerned...

It really isn't THAT complicated an issue.

Dave
[quote] ---


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:35 am    Post subject: P-mag Wiring Reply with quote

Steve,

Your idea seems good to me. But I wonder why do you want to use the 2-50 switch? Why not just wire the mags the way the Emagair folks suggest?

One thing I like about the AeroElectric idea is the concept of reducing "parts count". More parts equals more possible trouble. But in this instance either system uses at least 2 switches for each P-mag, so it is a wash.

I understand the need for the switch to shut off the power to the P-mag so you can check the internal alternator but why hide them? If you hide them will you need a warning light to tell you they are in one position or another? I have been thinking I might use a toggle switch with an LED light in the end of it.


The AeroElectric z-33 figure shows the 2-10 switch being hooked up to P-mags using wire colors. I think that it would be better if the connector plug was numbered on those drawings. The E/P mags don't have colored wires on them.

I agree, we should hope that Bob and Emag can get together and come up with a one size fits all, with a reduced parts count, and doesn't cause damage to the P-mags with and accidental push or flick of a switch.


I propose until this situation is sorted out by us, that those of us installing and flying behind these E/P mags follow the manufacturers wiring diagrams.

I do like Bob's suggestion to wire the mags to the battery bus.


Mike
[quote] ---


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:18 am    Post subject: P-mag Wiring Reply with quote

At 08:27 AM 9/25/2007 +0100, you wrote:

Quote:
Dave, It is very simple, except Bob's proposed wiring, abuses one
preference "by the good folk at EW-magair". E-mag's preference is that the
mag is always powered (presumably the firmware initialised) BEFORE the
P-lead is opened. They presumably have knowledge of how they wrote the
code and the reason why they say this.

Bob on the other hand has never explained, to my very limited knowledge,
how he can ignore this preference, and how it interacts with the code
initialisation.. Bob?


I've crafted a note to Brad Demet with a goal
of repairing a demonstrable disconnect in my understanding
of e-Mag's functionality. I've posted a copy of my
note to the list.

Sorry to take so long to climb back into this particular
'stew pot' . . . I've had too much stuff piled onto my
plate over the past 6 months. I trust that Brad and
friends will contribute to our understanding of the
physics and their design goals in due course.

Bob . . .


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Erich_Weaver(at)URSCorp.c
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:51 am    Post subject: p-mag wiring Reply with quote

Thank you Bob for addressing this issue. I eagerly await Brad's reply. Meanwhile, I can share my recent interaction with Brad on this issue:

Some time ago, there was an issue with a customers pmags who had wired them per Bobs suggested method. The Emagair folks had a concern that the unit MAY have lost its timing due to switching from the upper switch position (bus power provided) to the middle position (bus power removed) and then back again to the upper postion at a time when the engine RPMs were not sufficient to allow the ignition to generate a spark on its own (i.e., around 900 rpm or less). Due to the existing firmware, this action MAY have resulted in the loss of the timing memory in the unit.  As a result, the firmware was upgraded to prevent the timing memory loss from occurring.

I told Brad that my dual pmags are wired per Bob's method, and his recommendation was to get the firmware upgrade, but that it was NOT worth the trouble of changing the wiring. Their only concern at this point with Bob's method is that this is not the same wiring configuration used when they do their testing of the units, and therefore there is always some chance that test results may not be applicable under Bob's method or any other alternative wiring method. At the time of my conversation with Brad, provided the firmware upgrade was completed, there were no other known drawbacks for using Bob's method.

This may be comments from the peanut gallery at this point. I am pleased to have Bob interacting with Emagair to get to the bottom of it.

Erich Weaver

This e-mail and any attachments are confidential. If you receive this message in error or are not the intended recipient, you should not retain, distribute, disclose or use any of this information and you should destroy the e-mail and any attachments or copies. [quote][b]


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nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:57 am    Post subject: P-mag Wiring Reply with quote

Quote:
I've crafted a note to Brad Demet with a goal
of repairing a demonstrable disconnect in my understanding
of e-Mag's functionality. I've posted a copy of my
note to the list.

Sorry to take so long to climb back into this particular
'stew pot' . . . I've had too much stuff piled onto my
plate over the past 6 months. I trust that Brad and
friends will contribute to our understanding of the
physics and their design goals in due course.

I've had a response from Brad. I'm going to contact
George Braly and see if we can plan a trip for early
next week.

Bob . . .

----------------------------------------
( "Problems are the price of progress. )
( Don't bring me anything but trouble. )
( Good news weakens me." )
( -Charles F. Kettering- )
----------------------------------------


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