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Bret Smith

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 178
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:33 pm Post subject: VFR Preferred Instrumentation

M,

 Your paint scheme looks great!  Actually, I "borrowed"  the scheme from the HondaJet prototype.

  

 I must admit that I am not an avionics expert and would  prefer to differ your question to the many more knowledgeable folks on this  list, however, aside from the minimum requirements depicted in the FARs, I would  consider something like this:

 [img]cid:892331803(at)19102007-0492[/img]

     Dynon D100 - EFIS - Bright Screen        Includes Backup Battery, Mounting Tray, Remote Mount Compass, USB to      Serial Port Cable & Factory Harness
   
Dynon D120 - EMS - Bright Screen        Includes 4 Cylinder Engine Probe Kit
   
Garmin GPSMAP 396   
AirGizmo Panel Dock   
Garmin SL40 COM   
Garmin GTX327 Transponder*   
PS Engineering PM3000 Intercom   
UMA 2 1/4" Airspeed Indicator   
UMA 2 1/4" 20,000ft Atimeter

 Bret Smith

 RV-9A (91314)

 Mineral Bluff, GA

 www.FlightInnovations.com

  



   From:  owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of H. M.  Haught Jr. 

Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 7:12 PM

To:  aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re:  Instrument panel beginner

 

Bret - 



Enjoyed your site, and wanted to to know I am adapting  your paint scheme to a Bearhawk (file attached- dark color is a bright,deep  orange over a complimentary yellow shade - used for visibility in the  bush).  I like the simplicity and I think it lends itself well to the  Bearhawk lines.  



Using your ideas for instrumentation, what are  your thoughts on instrumentation for a VFR airplane, that might occasionally,  file special VFR to get out of a low ceiling situation flying into clear  air?  



M. Haught 

[img]cid:892331803(at)19102007-048B[/img]



Bret Smith wrote:  [quote]      

 Rob,

You asked    "I wonder why you don't include at least the very basic flight instruments    that do not rely on electric power."

    You will see that I am planning on the Z-13/8.  This wiring    structure incorporates a dual buss with an 8amp alternate alternator to power    essential items should the main 60amp alternator go TU.  The PRIMARY    backup is the TT two-axis autopilot.  Triple backup is the TT ADI (with    it's own backup battery and GPS.  No need for vacuum instruments with    this level of redundancy.   You said "having (4) GPS antenna's on-board sounds a    bit overdone."

       The primary    GPS is the Garmin GNS430.  The antenna will be mounted under the    glareshield (under a plexiglass panel) and will support the EFIS as well as XM    WX.  The alt GPS is part of the Grand Rapids Horizon 1 EFIS and is purely    a VFR backup.  It's antenna will be mounted beside the Garmin    antenna.  Having dual antennas removes the single point of failure in the    design.  The only other GPS is the backup for the TT ADI.  I'm not    sure where you get a 4th GPS antenna although it doesn't really matter since    these small antennas together, side-by-side will fit in the palm of your    hand.  

    

   This model is a tried and true    design and is currently being flown by several fellow builders an a rock-solid    IFR platform.  Having dual P-Mags offers an electrically independent    engine as well.  To my understanding, the only "dark and stormy" scenario    that would defeat the design is an in-flight fire.  In which case there    is little one can do except land ASAP.

    

   I welcome your    critique.

   



Bret Smith

RV-9A    (91314)

Mineral Bluff, GA

www.FlightInnovations.com



-----Original    Message-----

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)    [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)]    On Behalf Of Rob Turk

Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 1:09 PM

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject:    Re: Re: Instrument panel beginner



-->    AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rob Turk" <matronics(at)rtist.nl> (matronics(at)rtist.nl)



Bret,



As    you said, opinions differ. I looked at your site, and while you have made some    excellent choises, I wonder why you don't include at least the very basic    flight instruments that do not rely on electric power.



Also, having (4)    GPS antenna's on-board sounds a bit overdone. Most GPS-based equipment accepts    NMEA protocol. It's not hard to take one GPS receiver and feed the NMEA    protocol into all equipment that requires position/speed    information.



.. And so another episode in the discussion opens..    



Rob



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_________________
Bret Smith
RV-9A (Emp)

frank.hinde(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:07 am Post subject: VFR Preferred Instrumentation

Money, money, money...must be funny in a rich mans  world.

  

 Gee this an IFR panel minus a nice GNS 430 and the  needles....way overkill, even for your supposed "Special" VFR departures (I say  supposed because there is a fine line between special VFR and IFR...which will  get you killed in short order)

  

 Lets see you a gyro setup in the D100 which is totally not  required and steam guage backups.

  

 Your very best and most reliable attitude indicator is  "looking out the window"...Thats what VFR flying is all about...On top of that  this panel now has redundant ASI's and altimeters.

  

 Its very nice but you will never use most of it  VFR.

  

 If you really must have that "special" capability your  still better off with a wing levelling autopilot that will keep you sunny side  up without having to have the skills of an instrument pilot...I.e engage the A/P  onthe ground and fly stright out up and thru.

  

 Frank

 zodiac 400 hours VFR

 RV7a 225 hours IFR



   From:  owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bret  Smith

Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 8:32 PM

To:  aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Re:  VFR Preferred Instrumentation

 

 M,

 Your paint scheme looks great!  Actually, I "borrowed"  the scheme from the HondaJet prototype.

  

 I must admit that I am not an avionics expert and would  prefer to differ your question to the many more knowledgeable folks on this  list, however, aside from the minimum requirements depicted in the FARs, I would  consider something like this:

 [img]cid:691125316(at)19102007-211C[/img]

     Dynon D100 - EFIS - Bright Screen         Includes Backup Battery, Mounting Tray, Remote Mount Compass, USB to      Serial Port Cable & Factory Harness
   
Dynon D120 - EMS - Bright Screen         Includes 4 Cylinder Engine Probe Kit
   
Garmin GPSMAP 396    
AirGizmo Panel Dock    
Garmin SL40 COM    
Garmin GTX327 Transponder*    
PS Engineering PM3000 Intercom    
UMA 2 1/4" Airspeed Indicator    
UMA 2 1/4" 20,000ft Atimeter

 Bret Smith

 RV-9A (91314)

 Mineral Bluff, GA

 www.FlightInnovations.com

  



   From:  owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of H. M.  Haught Jr. 

Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 7:12 PM

To:  aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re:  Instrument panel beginner

 

Bret - 



Enjoyed your site, and wanted to to know I am adapting  your paint scheme to a Bearhawk (file attached- dark color is a bright,deep  orange over a complimentary yellow shade - used for visibility in the  bush).  I like the simplicity and I think it lends itself well to the  Bearhawk lines.  



Using your ideas for instrumentation, what are  your thoughts on instrumentation for a VFR airplane, that might occasionally,  file special VFR to get out of a low ceiling situation flying into clear  air?  



M. Haught 

[img]cid:691125316(at)19102007-2123[/img]



Bret Smith wrote:  [quote]      

 Rob,

You asked    "I wonder why you don't include at least the very basic flight instruments    that do not rely on electric power."

    You will see that I am planning on the Z-13/8.  This wiring    structure incorporates a dual buss with an 8amp alternate alternator to power    essential items should the main 60amp alternator go TU.  The PRIMARY    backup is the TT two-axis autopilot.  Triple backup is the TT ADI (with    it's own backup battery and GPS.  No need for vacuum instruments with    this level of redundancy.   You said "having (4) GPS antenna's on-board sounds a    bit overdone."

       The primary    GPS is the Garmin GNS430.  The antenna will be mounted under the    glareshield (under a plexiglass panel) and will support the EFIS as well as XM    WX.  The alt GPS is part of the Grand Rapids Horizon 1 EFIS and is purely    a VFR backup.  It's antenna will be mounted beside the Garmin    antenna.  Having dual antennas removes the single point of failure in the    design.  The only other GPS is the backup for the TT ADI.  I'm not    sure where you get a 4th GPS antenna although it doesn't really matter since    these small antennas together, side-by-side will fit in the palm of your    hand.  

    

   This model is a tried and true    design and is currently being flown by several fellow builders an a rock-solid    IFR platform.  Having dual P-Mags offers an electrically independent    engine as well.  To my understanding, the only "dark and stormy" scenario    that would defeat the design is an in-flight fire.  In which case there    is little one can do except land ASAP.

    

   I welcome your    critique.

   



Bret Smith

RV-9A    (91314)

Mineral Bluff, GA

www.FlightInnovations.com



-----Original    Message-----

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)    [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)]    On Behalf Of Rob Turk

Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 1:09 PM

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject:    Re: Re: Instrument panel beginner



-->    AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rob Turk" <matronics(at)rtist.nl> (matronics(at)rtist.nl)



Bret,



As    you said, opinions differ. I looked at your site, and while you have made some    excellent choises, I wonder why you don't include at least the very basic    flight instruments that do not rely on electric power.



Also, having (4)    GPS antenna's on-board sounds a bit overdone. Most GPS-based equipment accepts    NMEA protocol. It's not hard to take one GPS receiver and feed the NMEA    protocol into all equipment that requires position/speed    information.



.. And so another episode in the discussion opens..    



Rob



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Bret Smith

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 178
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:42 am Post subject: VFR Preferred Instrumentation

Frank,

  

 I agree with you up to a point... The panel shown is an  actual panel offered by Chief Aircraft and sells for $11,450.00!   

  

 http://www.chiefaircraft.com/airsec/Avionics/Avionics.html

  

 You can actually do even better through John Stark.   He had asked what "I" would suggest for a VFR panel with some IFR  capabilities.  The addition of an autopilot is for workload reduction or as  a primary backup in the event of an in-flight emergency.

  

 I suppose any discussion on panel instrumentation should  really be prefaced with the intended price range...i.e., 

 VFR panel under $5000.00

 VFR/IFR panel under $10,000.00

 IFR panel under $20,000.00

  

 I personally know many pilots who spend $100,000+ for a  spam can with 20 year old avionics only to spend another $20,000 to upgrade the  panel.  To each his own.

  

 Bret Smith

 RV-9A (91314)

 Mineral Bluff, GA

 www.FlightInnovations.com

  



   From:  owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hinde,  Frank George (Corvallis)

Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 1:04  PM

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE:  Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation

 

 Money, money, money...must be funny in a rich mans  world.

  

 Gee this an IFR panel minus a nice GNS 430 and the  needles....way overkill, even for your supposed "Special" VFR departures (I say  supposed because there is a fine line between special VFR and IFR...which will  get you killed in short order)

  

 Lets see you a gyro setup in the D100 which is totally not  required and steam guage backups.

  

 Your very best and most reliable attitude indicator is  "looking out the window"...Thats what VFR flying is all about...On top of that  this panel now has redundant ASI's and altimeters.

  

 Its very nice but you will never use most of it  VFR.

  

 If you really must have that "special" capability your  still better off with a wing levelling autopilot that will keep you sunny side  up without having to have the skills of an instrument pilot...I.e engage the A/P  onthe ground and fly stright out up and thru.

  

 Frank

 zodiac 400 hours VFR

 RV7a 225 hours IFR



   From:  owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bret  Smith

Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 8:32 PM

To:  aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Re:  VFR Preferred Instrumentation

 

 M,

 Your paint scheme looks great!  Actually, I "borrowed"  the scheme from the HondaJet prototype.

  

 I must admit that I am not an avionics expert and would  prefer to differ your question to the many more knowledgeable folks on this  list, however, aside from the minimum requirements depicted in the FARs, I would  consider something like this:

 [img]cid:270291918(at)19102007-2CDF[/img]

     Dynon D100 - EFIS - Bright Screen         Includes Backup Battery, Mounting Tray, Remote Mount Compass, USB to      Serial Port Cable & Factory Harness
   
Dynon D120 - EMS - Bright Screen         Includes 4 Cylinder Engine Probe Kit
   
Garmin GPSMAP 396    
AirGizmo Panel Dock    
Garmin SL40 COM    
Garmin GTX327 Transponder*    
PS Engineering PM3000 Intercom    
UMA 2 1/4" Airspeed Indicator    
UMA 2 1/4" 20,000ft Atimeter

 Bret Smith

 RV-9A (91314)

 Mineral Bluff, GA

 www.FlightInnovations.com

  



   From:  owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of H. M.  Haught Jr. 

Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 7:12 PM

To:  aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re:  Instrument panel beginner

 

Bret - 



Enjoyed your site, and wanted to to know I am adapting  your paint scheme to a Bearhawk (file attached- dark color is a bright,deep  orange over a complimentary yellow shade - used for visibility in the  bush).  I like the simplicity and I think it lends itself well to the  Bearhawk lines.  



Using your ideas for instrumentation, what are  your thoughts on instrumentation for a VFR airplane, that might occasionally,  file special VFR to get out of a low ceiling situation flying into clear  air?  



M. Haught 

[img]cid:270291918(at)19102007-2CE6[/img]



Bret Smith wrote:  [quote]      

 Rob,

You asked    "I wonder why you don't include at least the very basic flight instruments    that do not rely on electric power."

    You will see that I am planning on the Z-13/8.  This wiring    structure incorporates a dual buss with an 8amp alternate alternator to power    essential items should the main 60amp alternator go TU.  The PRIMARY    backup is the TT two-axis autopilot.  Triple backup is the TT ADI (with    it's own backup battery and GPS.  No need for vacuum instruments with    this level of redundancy.   You said "having (4) GPS antenna's on-board sounds a    bit overdone."

       The primary    GPS is the Garmin GNS430.  The antenna will be mounted under the    glareshield (under a plexiglass panel) and will support the EFIS as well as XM    WX.  The alt GPS is part of the Grand Rapids Horizon 1 EFIS and is purely    a VFR backup.  It's antenna will be mounted beside the Garmin    antenna.  Having dual antennas removes the single point of failure in the    design.  The only other GPS is the backup for the TT ADI.  I'm not    sure where you get a 4th GPS antenna although it doesn't really matter since    these small antennas together, side-by-side will fit in the palm of your    hand.  

    

   This model is a tried and true    design and is currently being flown by several fellow builders an a rock-solid    IFR platform.  Having dual P-Mags offers an electrically independent    engine as well.  To my understanding, the only "dark and stormy" scenario    that would defeat the design is an in-flight fire.  In which case there    is little one can do except land ASAP.

    

   I welcome your    critique.

   



Bret Smith

RV-9A    (91314)

Mineral Bluff, GA

www.FlightInnovations.com



-----Original    Message-----

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)    [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)]    On Behalf Of Rob Turk

Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 1:09 PM

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject:    Re: Re: Instrument panel beginner



-->    AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rob Turk" <matronics(at)rtist.nl> (matronics(at)rtist.nl)



Bret,



As    you said, opinions differ. I looked at your site, and while you have made some    excellent choises, I wonder why you don't include at least the very basic    flight instruments that do not rely on electric power.



Also, having (4)    GPS antenna's on-board sounds a bit overdone. Most GPS-based equipment accepts    NMEA protocol. It's not hard to take one GPS receiver and feed the NMEA    protocol into all equipment that requires position/speed    information.



.. And so another episode in the discussion opens..    



Rob



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_________________
Bret Smith
RV-9A (Emp)

mosquito56

Joined: 24 Aug 2007
Posts: 77
Location: Laredo, Tx

Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 5:42 pm Post subject: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation

As I understand it right now, that fantastic panel only has 3 guages in it. 



 I see an 

an altitude indicator

a speed indicator 

a VSI.

 

Is the dynon efis system legal as minimul flight instruments for EX-AB?

I'm sure I could look it up but to lazy right now.

Don

_________________
Don Merritt- Laredo, Tx
.

frank.hinde(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:24 am Post subject: VFR Preferred Instrumentation

I guess the question for me is the whole concept of a VFR  panel with "some" IFR capabilities.

  

 If what we are saying is an IFR pilot who mainly flys VFR  and who wants to do enroute IFR, thats one thing and perfectly  OK.

  

 If we are talking about a VFR pilot who intends to fly  "special" that to me is a fine line as the average VFR jock has little knowledge  of weather and one day will almost certainly cut it too fine and find himself up  the proverbial creek without a paddle.

  

 To that end its just a matter of time before a WX emergency  happens and then as you said the A/P is for an emergency backup...even so there  is still no need for an AI.

  

 11K really?...WoW!..I paid 9k (with a 430 and needles) for  a full IFR panel in the RV7.

  

 I think the discussion started with our VFR friend  wondering what he needed in the panel...The approach I took is "you better be  able to see out the window"...And if you can then an AI is redundant...But an  A/P is a useful device and can be used to get your tail on the ground (together  with a resolution to get an IFR ticket) in the event of the WX  emergency.

  

 At least thats how I ended up with my IFR  ticket....

  

 Frank



   From:  owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bret  Smith

Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 11:40 AM

To:  aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Re:  VFR Preferred Instrumentation

 

 Frank,

  

 I agree with you up to a point... The panel shown is an  actual panel offered by Chief Aircraft and sells for $11,450.00!   

  

 http://www.chiefaircraft.com/airsec/Avionics/Avionics.html

  

 You can actually do even better through John Stark.   He had asked what "I" would suggest for a VFR panel with some IFR  capabilities.  The addition of an autopilot is for workload reduction or as  a primary backup in the event of an in-flight emergency.

  

 I suppose any discussion on panel instrumentation should  really be prefaced with the intended price range...i.e., 

 VFR panel under $5000.00

 VFR/IFR panel under $10,000.00

 IFR panel under $20,000.00

  

 I personally know many pilots who spend $100,000+ for a  spam can with 20 year old avionics only to spend another $20,000 to upgrade the  panel.  To each his own.

  

 Bret Smith

 RV-9A (91314)

 Mineral Bluff, GA

 www.FlightInnovations.com

  



   

  [quote][b]

Terry Watson

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 290
Location: Seattle, WA USA

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:19 am Post subject: VFR Preferred Instrumentation

Most of us who are building or flying RV’s will remember that we lost Bill Benedict, then general manager of Vans, and his son Jeremy in the factory’s gyroless RV-9(?) in low clouds on the way to an air show. Both were competent pilots and both knew better than to fly into the clouds, yet they did. Until that time, I think Van always thought of his designs as planes you looked out the window to fly, as did perhaps most of the builders. I believe most of the factory RV’s now have some sort of artificial horizon or autopilot, or both.  

   

Terry  

   

         

  

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)

 Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 8:23 AM

 To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation  

  

   

I guess the question for me is the whole concept of a VFR panel with "some" IFR capabilities.  

   

If what we are saying is an IFR pilot who mainly flys VFR and who wants to do enroute IFR, thats one thing and perfectly OK.  

   

If we are talking about a VFR pilot who intends to fly "special" that to me is a fine line as the average VFR jock has little knowledge of weather and one day will almost certainly cut it too fine and find himself up the proverbial creek without a paddle.  

   

To that end its just a matter of time before a WX emergency happens and then as you said the A/P is for an emergency backup...even so there is still no need for an AI.  

   

11K really?...WoW!..I paid 9k (with a 430 and needles) for a full IFR panel in the RV7.  

   

I think the discussion started with our VFR friend wondering what he needed in the panel...The approach I took is "you better be able to see out the window"...And if you can then an AI is redundant...But an A/P is a useful device and can be used to get your tail on the ground (together with a resolution to get an IFR ticket) in the event of the WX emergency.  

   

At least thats how I ended up with my IFR ticket....  

   

Frank  

   

        [quote][b]

frank.hinde(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:40 am Post subject: VFR Preferred Instrumentation

Yes indeed Terry, tragic and very avoidable  accident.

  

 Its hard for me to imaging is Bill was a very experienced  VFR or IFR pilot he would have done that...But the bottom line is he  did.

  

 But then an A/P (especially a Pictorial pilot which has  reliable turn coordinator display) is quite adequate to keep straight and level  and safely do shallow turns.

  

 Frank



   From:  owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry  Watson

Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 9:20 AM

To:  aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Re:  VFR Preferred Instrumentation

 

  

Most of us who are  building or flying RV’s will remember that we lost Bill Benedict, then general  manager of Vans, and his son Jeremy in the factory’s gyroless RV-9(?) in low  clouds on the way to an air show. Both were competent pilots and both knew  better than to fly into the clouds, yet they did. Until that time, I think Van  always thought of his designs as planes you looked out the window to fly, as did  perhaps most of the builders. I believe most of the factory RV’s now have some  sort of artificial horizon or autopilot, or both. 

  

Terry 

  

     

 

From:  owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)

Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 8:23  AM

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Re: VFR  Preferred Instrumentation

 

  

I guess the question  for me is the whole concept of a VFR panel with "some" IFR  capabilities. 

  

If what we are saying  is an IFR pilot who mainly flys VFR and who wants to do enroute IFR, thats one  thing and perfectly OK. 

  

If we are talking about  a VFR pilot who intends to fly "special" that to me is a fine line as the  average VFR jock has little knowledge of weather and one day will almost  certainly cut it too fine and find himself up the proverbial creek without a  paddle. 

  

To that end its just a  matter of time before a WX emergency happens and then as you said the A/P is for  an emergency backup...even so there is still no need for an  AI. 

  

11K really?...WoW!..I  paid 9k (with a 430 and needles) for a full IFR panel in the  RV7. 

  

I think the discussion  started with our VFR friend wondering what he needed in the panel...The approach  I took is "you better be able to see out the window"...And if you can then an AI  is redundant...But an A/P is a useful device and can be used to get your tail on  the ground (together with a resolution to get an IFR ticket) in the event of the  WX emergency. 

  

At least thats how I  ended up with my IFR ticket.... 

  

Frank 

 

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[b]

BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:41 am Post subject: VFR Preferred Instrumentation

In a message dated 10/22/2007 11:23:50 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  terry(at)tcwatson.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     

Most of us who are    building or flying RV’s will remember that we lost Bill Benedict, then general    manager of Vans, and his son Jeremy in the factory’s gyroless RV-9(?) in low    clouds on the way to an air show. Both were competent pilots and both knew    better than to fly into the clouds, yet they did. Until that time, I think Van    always thought of his designs as planes you looked out the window to fly, as    did perhaps most of the builders. I believe most of the factory RV’s now have    some sort of artificial horizon or autopilot, or    both.   

    

Terry   

 	


 

 I know I am an outsider to this list, but please, let's all realize that  instrument competency is not an inborne trait. 

  

 It takes training and practice to maintain proficiency. 

  

 Buying an autopilot or installing an attitude gyro is not sufficient to  keep us alive without instrument proficiency. 

  

 Twenty hours of serious training with needle, ball and airspeed will  do the initial job, but proficiency requires constant use. For one thing, it is  much easier to fly IFR in the system than it is to convert a VFR flight into an  IFR one. Even the most experienced and competent IFR pilot has his/her hands  full when encountering IFR in an unplanned manner.

  

 Please, PLEASE! Do not count on an autopilot to save your life. 

  

 Learn how and practice how to use the simplest of instrumentation. It may  not be legal, but it will save your life and the life of those who may be riding  with you.

  

 Happy  Skies,



Old Bob

AKA

Bob Siegfried

Ancient Aviator

Stearman  N3977A

Brookeridge Air Park LL22

Downers Grove, IL 60516

630  985-8503



See what's [quote][b]

Bret Smith

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 178
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:55 am Post subject: VFR Preferred Instrumentation

Frank,

  

 Very eloquently spoken.  Just think, for  another 2K, you could have had glass!  (Just kidding)  That reminded  me of during my IFR training when I learned that the AI is never a primary  instrument.  Made me wonder why every VFR equipped Cessna and Piper had  one.

  

 Thanks for your input on this List...

  

 Bret Smith

RV-9A "Fuselage"

Blue Ridge,  GA

www.FlightInnovations.com

 [quote]   ---

_________________
Bret Smith
RV-9A (Emp)

frank.hinde(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:08 am Post subject: VFR Preferred Instrumentation

Exactly my point  Bob,

  

 Even with my IFR ticket I  realise I am out of my element when hand flying in the clouds and turning around  for an approach. It took me over 50 hours to get my IFR ticket and the idea of  me 50 hours ago encountering clouds and using an AI to keep me right side up is  just nonsensicle...I might be able to do it for a a few minutes but I'm sure I  would have lost it eventually.

  

 Thats why (with my IFR  ticket) my default position is you should be nowhere near clouds if your a VFR  jock period.

  

 In the event you do  enounter clouds the autopilot will fly the airplane sunnyside up much better  than you will.....It does it better than I can now and I have probably 100hours  in the soup.

  

 of course all this is in  the RV7 which is not exactly the best instrument platform.

  

 Stay safe

  

 Frank



   From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of  BobsV35B(at)aol.com

Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 9:41  AM

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re:  Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation

 

  In a message dated 10/22/2007 11:23:50 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  terry(at)tcwatson.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     

Most of us who are    building or flying RV’s will remember that we lost Bill Benedict, then general    manager of Vans, and his son Jeremy in the factory’s gyroless RV-9(?) in low    clouds on the way to an air show. Both were competent pilots and both knew    better than to fly into the clouds, yet they did. Until that time, I think Van    always thought of his designs as planes you looked out the window to fly, as    did perhaps most of the builders. I believe most of the factory RV’s now have    some sort of artificial horizon or autopilot, or    both.   

    

Terry   

 	


 

 I know I am an outsider to this list, but please, let's all realize that  instrument competency is not an inborne trait. 

  

 It takes training and practice to maintain proficiency. 

  

 Buying an autopilot or installing an attitude gyro is not sufficient to  keep us alive without instrument proficiency. 

  

 Twenty hours of serious training with needle, ball and airspeed will  do the initial job, but proficiency requires constant use. For one thing, it is  much easier to fly IFR in the system than it is to convert a VFR flight into an  IFR one. Even the most experienced and competent IFR pilot has his/her hands  full when encountering IFR in an unplanned manner.

  

 Please, PLEASE! Do not count on an autopilot to save your life. 

  

 Learn how and practice how to use the simplest of instrumentation. It may  not be legal, but it will save your life and the life of those who may be riding  with you.

  

 Happy  Skies,



Old Bob

AKA

Bob Siegfried

Ancient Aviator

Stearman  N3977A

Brookeridge Air Park LL22

Downers Grove, IL 60516

630  985-8503



   See what's  	  Quote: 	
		  



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  [quote][b]

frank.hinde(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:19 am Post subject: VFR Preferred Instrumentation

Ya I wondered that too Bret, Particularly when you realise  just how short lived a vacuum pump is. My guess it was more about liability than  anything else. Or maybe our training was due to the fact the Gyro will  eventually roll over and die...Hopefully it won't take you with  it!

  

 Autopilots in small airplanes were of course almost unheard  of not many years back. When you consider you can now get a superbly reliable  wing leveler for less than $2k (experimental) then it makes them almost  mandatory equipment in my mind and more useful than an AI...especially a non  glass AI.

  

 Oh yes I do have a Dynon D100 and an EMS D10...Super pieces  of equipment, wouldn't be without them but then I assume I won't be looking out  the window either.

  

 My GNS 430 goes in for its WAAS upgrade next month and I'm  told that its just awesome!

  

 Cheers and good luck with the 9a...awesome airplane you'll  love it.

  

 Frank

 Rv7a 225 hours



   From:  owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bret  Smith

Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 9:45 AM

To:  aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re:  VFR Preferred Instrumentation

 

 Frank,

  

 Very eloquently spoken.  Just think, for  another 2K, you could have had glass!  (Just kidding)  That reminded  me of during my IFR training when I learned that the AI is never a primary  instrument.  Made me wonder why every VFR equipped Cessna and Piper had  one.

  

 Thanks for your input on this List...

  

 Bret Smith

RV-9A "Fuselage"

Blue Ridge,  GA

www.FlightInnovations.com

 [quote] [b]

Terry Watson

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 290
Location: Seattle, WA USA

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:39 am Post subject: VFR Preferred Instrumentation

With considerable respect Bob, a VFR pilot with some kind of gyro instrument or an autopilot has a much better chance of completing a 180 turn when he inadvertently flies into a cloud that he does without. If he thinks that having the instruments makes him an instrument pilot he is likely going to kill himself anyway. I think I recall my last two BFR’s having that 180 degree turn under the hood as a part of it.  

   

I would almost always defer to your judgment on these matters, but the point where I disagree is that IF you are saying gyro instruments are inappropriate in a VFR airplane. Instrument competency (or flying in the IFR system) is another question entirely.  

   

As for being an outsider to the list, you are one of the reasons I follow the list.  

   

Terry  

   

         

  

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B(at)aol.com

 Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 9:41 AM

 To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation  

  

       

In a message dated 10/22/2007 11:23:50 A.M. Central Daylight Time, terry(at)tcwatson.com writes:  

   	  Quote: 	
		    

Most of us who are building or flying RV’s will remember that we lost Bill Benedict, then general manager of Vans, and his son Jeremy in the factory’s gyroless RV-9(?) in low clouds on the way to an air show. Both were competent pilots and both knew better than to fly into the clouds, yet they did. Until that time, I think Van always thought of his designs as planes you looked out the window to fly, as did perhaps most of the builders. I believe most of the factory RV’s now have some sort of artificial horizon or autopilot, or both.  

   

Terry  

   	
  

    

I know I am an outsider to this list, but please, let's all realize that instrument competency is not an inborne trait.   

    

   

    

It takes training and practice to maintain proficiency.   

    

   

    

Buying an autopilot or installing an attitude gyro is not sufficient to keep us alive without instrument proficiency.   

    

   

    

Twenty hours of serious training with needle, ball and airspeed will do the initial job, but proficiency requires constant use. For one thing, it is much easier to fly IFR in the system than it is to convert a VFR flight into an IFR one. Even the most experienced and competent IFR pilot has his/her hands full when encountering IFR in an unplanned manner.  

    

   

    

Please, PLEASE! Do not count on an autopilot to save your life.   

    

   

    

Learn how and practice how to use the simplest of instrumentation. It may not be legal, but it will save your life and the life of those who may be riding with you.  

    

   

    

Happy Skies,

 

 Old Bob

 AKA

 Bob Siegfried

 Ancient Aviator

 Stearman N3977A

 Brookeridge Air Park LL22

 Downers Grove, IL 60516

 630 985-8503  

  



 

         

  

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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:30 am Post subject: VFR Preferred Instrumentation

Good Afternoon Terry,   

 I personally feel that every flying machine should have the capability of  being flown without outside reference. 

  

 For me, that means a T&B, airspeed and altimeter.  Additional toys are always helpful!

  

 What I am fearful of is anyone being encouraged to fly beyond his or her  capabilities utilizing equipment that happens to be on board.

  

 I am certain that there are modern solid state instruments that are just as  reliable and as economical as my beloved needle, ball and airspeed, but  regardless of what style instrumentation is chosen, it takes practice and  proficiency to utilize it. 

  

 Even a wing leveler has to be understood and used properly.

  

 I have never flown any flying machine which I could not keep right side up  or recover from an unusual attitude by using basic needle, ball, and airspeed  technique. 

  

 We don't need to be able to shoot approaches or communicate with the FEDs  to be able to keep an airplane right side up. It would be nice if we could call  for and obtain assistance, but communication is not imperative for  survival.

  

 I am prejudiced toward instrument flying because I learned how to do it  very early in my career.

 It is my opinion that it takes a lot longer to learn how to be a safe  VFR pilot than it does to learn how to be a safe IFR pilot.

  

 That does not mean that the flying machine needs to have a full panel and  sophisticated radios to be flyable in IFR conditions. 

  

 What it does mean is that any pilot should have adequate equipment and  skills to be able to avoid disaster if sight of the horizon is  lost.  

  

 While making a turn off shore during daylight hours the visibility can  be good, but a haze may cause a loss of visual reference for just a few  moments. 

  

 At night, the ability to safely control the airplane for a few seconds or a  few minutes until good references are in sight is invaluable. 

  

 No one intentionally gets into those situations, but it takes experience to  be able to stay out of them. While that experience is being gained, it sure is  nice to be able to control the aircraft without a visual reference.

  

 I urge everyone to practice flight by whatever reference instruments are  installed often enough so that when that daytime haze condition or a night time  turn away from lights causes a momentary loss of reference, maintaining  control is second nature. 

  

 Certainly, no one intends to get into conditions where instrument flight is  required and I do not believe everyone has to be fully qualified to pick up a  clearance and shoot an approach, but I do believe we should all be able to keep  the airplane under control for a few minutes when we inadvertently lose our  orientation via outside the aircraft references.

  

 I vote for twenty hours of concentrated training using needle, ball, and  airspeed or whatever style rate instrumentation is available. The main reason I  like needle, ball, and airspeed is that they are cheap, reliable and  ubiquitous.

  

 Happy  Skies,



Old Bob

AKA

Bob Siegfried

Ancient Aviator

Stearman  N3977A

Brookeridge Air Park LL22

Downers Grove, IL 60516

630  985-8503



  

 In a message dated 10/22/2007 1:42:35 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  terry(at)tcwatson.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     

I would almost always    defer to your judgment on these matters, but the point where I disagree is    that IF you are saying gyro instruments are inappropriate in a VFR airplane.    Instrument competency (or flying in the IFR system) is another question    entirely. 	


 





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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:48 pm Post subject: VFR Preferred Instrumentation

Well Mister  redeloach, 

    

 I have never been accused of being wise, but I do believe there are many  who will agree that I am old and I have been an active licensed pilot for over  sixty-one years. Where does two out of three leave me?

  

 I believe that anyone who flies is capable of flying into a condition where  visual reference is lost. It happens to ducks and it happens to me.

  

 Happy  Skies,



Old Bob

AKA

Bob Siegfried

Ancient Aviator

Stearman  N3977A

Brookeridge Air Park LL22

Downers Grove, IL 60516

630  985-8503



  

 In a message dated 10/22/2007 2:47:52 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  redeloach(at)fedex.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     

Keep on making sense.    Someone must. Lot’s of these typist have    probably never heard how to be OLD, WISE, and a    PILOT! 	




See what's new at Make AOL Your Homepage.

  [quote][b]

n744bh(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:42 pm Post subject: VFR Preferred Instrumentation

Bob, 

  

 When I mention JFK Jr in regards I really wasn't trying to infer that you  should depend on an a/p to save your life.  But, from what I understand, he  was not instrument rated and didn't even like to use an a/p.  The NTSB  report indicated that he was a victim of spatial disorientation, something that  any low time IFR pilot or VFR pilot can easily have happen.  Even high time  IFR pilots that are not maintaining proficiency could have it happen to  them.  And when that happens to you a good operating a/p certainly could  keep you alive while you try to sort things out.  Heck, JFK was so far  behind his airplane it's amazing he even got hurt in the crash.  Now, if a  person is building an airplane to have a good time with in the local area on a  sunny day then you sure don't need to install an a/p.  I'm starting to work  on a Skybolt and you can bet that I'm not going to have any fancy stuff in it to  have fun in the local area.

  

 Bill

 Glasair SIIS-FT

 [quote]   ---

Ed Anderson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 475

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:08 pm Post subject: VFR Preferred Instrumentation

I fully agree, Terry.  I spent 20 rather anxious  filled ICM minutes when I foolish got caught crossing a cold front to what I  expect to be fair and clear behind it.  Despite a 180, I  got enveloped in clouds at 8500 MSL that turned out to have ice. Ice  formed on front of windshield and in front of gas caps on the wings but  fortunately not any more than that.

  

   I had 3 items that undoubtedly saved my butt  that day. 

  

  1.  I did have an AI as well as needle and ball  (which I do practice with).

  2.  Had a heated pitot tube which I belatedly  remember to turn on - immediately after I did there was a blip as I presume an  slug of water that had been ice went through.

  3. Had a Garmin 195 which mean I at least knew where  I was headed.

  

 Managed to complete the turn, fly back toward a large lake  while descending and finally broke out at 2000 MSL over the  lake.   Proceeded to north of Atlanta, GA and landing at  Cherokee county airport in  blowing snow near dusk.  I had no luck  communication with anyone - which after I landed I discovered the radio antenna  had snapped off flush with its mount on the fuselage - I presume due to ice  induced vibration.

  

 I walked on shaky knees into the FBO and the first thing I  saw as an article posted on their read-board about the average life span of a  VFR pilot in ICM conditions being a few seconds less than 3 minutes.  My  guardian angle got a few gray hairs on that one.

  

 But, the point is regardless of  dumb thought process  or poor decision that  got me to that point, without those instruments and  a small bit of skill at using them, I would not be writing this.  So I am a  firm believer in  four  things.

  

 1. Never, Never mess with ICM conditions

 2. Always have a minimum set of equipment to do a 180 in  those conditions - even if only a VFR pilot - you never plan on becoming  involved in such a situation, but its happened to more than me.

 3.  Know how to use those basic instruments and  practice doing a 180.

 4. A GPS to get you someplace (rather than boring  circles in those conditions).

  

 FWIW

  

 Ed 

  

  

  

  

  

  

 [quote]   ---

_________________
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com

handainc(at)madisoncounty
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:42 pm Post subject: VFR Preferred Instrumentation

I think I started this thread with my inquiry about the VFR instrumentation.  I have a "full panel" in my Pacer, and it has saved my neck more than once.  As brought out in this thread, if you fly a lot, you will run into conditions that may not be IFR, but are disorienting, as well as blundering into IFR conditions.  I had a good instructor that insisted I be "competent" on instruments (long time Navy and then Air Force basic instructor), so I spent a considerable amount of time under the hood.  Most of my BFR instructors have also checked me out under the hood (unusual attitudes, 180 turns, etc.)  and it has saved my beef.  Got caught on the coast of Florida in some fast moving weather, did a 180 and got socked in on approach to the airport I had crossed.  All I could do was set up a climb, hope I didn't hit a tower and keep the airplane right side up as I climbed out on the runway heading (chart showed no towers).  Getting on the radio, I determined that I could indeed climb out on top and got vectors to the closest view to the ground with the control center filing me as "Special VFR) .  And yes, I did experience vertigo on that flight, plus, the Pacer is not a good instrument platform.  It wasn't fun, and I would not do it again on purpose.  Other occasions have caused me to practice flying on instruments as often as I can.  

 

 I would like to get my IFR rating, and would definitely take instruction if I can afford a "basic IFR" panel, just for situations that I mentioned.  Low ceiling over my location, clear air a few miles away.  However, from the responses, I doubt I can afford that kind of equipment.  Right now, my thinking is to install the TruTrak EFIS, depending upon the cost, the Pictorial Turn and Bank, ICOM Radio, and maybe a used Garmin GPS panel unit as well as a "steam guage" altimeter and airspeed.  I've flown the Pictorial Turn and Bank in my Pacer (velcroed on the top of the panel) when Younkin was developing it and was impressed.  With the EFIS as primary and the pictorial T&B as backup I would feel comfortable continuing to fly as I do now, with the GPS as backup to the gyro. Probably can't afford to go with an auto pilot, unless they get even cheaper but will install wiring and components to add additional equipment later as I can afford it.  

 

 I certainly wasn't advocating a VFR pilot intentionally filing IFR.  I was just stating what I have wanted to do on occasion if I had the equipment and experience to do it safely.  

 

 It also appears that everyone has a different definition of "basic".  

 

 M. Haught 

 

 Bill Hibbing wrote: [quote]            Bob, 

    

   When I mention JFK Jr in regards I really wasn't trying to infer that you should depend on an a/p to save your life.  But, from what I understand, he was not instrument rated and didn't even like to use an a/p.  The NTSB report indicated that he was a victim of spatial disorientation, something that any low time IFR pilot or VFR pilot can easily have happen.  Even high time IFR pilots that are not maintaining proficiency could have it happen to them.  And when that happens to you a good operating a/p certainly could keep you alive while you try to sort things out.  Heck, JFK was so far behind his airplane it's amazing he even got hurt in the crash.  Now, if a person is building an airplane to have a good time with in the local area on a sunny day then you sure don't need to install an a/p.  I'm starting to work on a Skybolt and you can bet that I'm not going to have any fancy stuff in it to have fun in the local area.

    

   Bill

   Glasair SIIS-FT

    	  Quote: 	
		       -----     

   	
 [b]

BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:52 pm Post subject: VFR Preferred Instrumentation

Good Evening Bill,   

 In am not at all opposed to having an autopilot available. In fact I have  two of them in my Bonanza. One is a full autopilot with altitude hold and  approach coupling. The other is an old Century I wing leveler.

  

 I hate carrying any extra weight, but I do consider my back up autopilot to  be worth carrying the two point two extra pounds that it weighs.

  

 If I could get one approved in my Stearman at a reasonable cost, I would  probably do so. My only objection is to installing one as a substitute for  training and checking.  The twenty hours or so of training required to  reach a high level of  rate instrument flight capability seems to me  to be a better investment. The cost is about the same, but the training will  last a life time and the rate instruments are available in almost all  certificated airplanes.

  

 They are low cost enough and light enough to place in everything that  has any sort of electrical power at all. If no electrical power is available, a  venturi will work just fine.

  

 Best of all is to have an autopilot combined with the skills to fly without  it.  Even an autopilot needs training to use properly. 

  

 We can all point out many things that JFKjr needed, but his mistakes could  have happened to any of us at some stage in our training.

  

 Very Sad and very bad for our light plane image. We do not need such things  happening to anyone else. 

  

 IFR capability and training  would have saved him. Why not encourage  all to get that training? 

  

 It is LOT easier to learn to fly IFR than it is to learn how to get around  the country safely in VFR conditions.

  

 Happy  Skies,



Old Bob

AKA

Bob Siegfried

Ancient Aviator

Stearman  N3977A

Brookeridge Air Park LL22

Downers Grove, IL 60516

630  985-8503



  

 In a message dated 10/22/2007 5:44:12 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  n744bh(at)bellsouth.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     Bob, 

    

   When I mention JFK Jr in regards I really wasn't trying to infer that you    should depend on an a/p to save your life.  But, from what I understand,    he was not instrument rated and didn't even like to use an a/p.  The NTSB    report indicated that he was a victim of spatial disorientation, something    that any low time IFR pilot or VFR pilot can easily have happen.  Even    high time IFR pilots that are not maintaining proficiency could have it happen    to them.  And when that happens to you a good operating a/p certainly    could keep you alive while you try to sort things out.  Heck, JFK was so    far behind his airplane it's amazing he even got hurt in the crash.  Now,    if a person is building an airplane to have a good time with in the local area    on a sunny day then you sure don't need to install an a/p.  I'm starting    to work on a Skybolt and you can bet that I'm not going to have any fancy    stuff in it to have fun in the local area.

    

   Bill

   Glasair SIIS-FT

	


 





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n744bh(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:38 pm Post subject: VFR Preferred Instrumentation

Yep, I totally agree Bob.  The way I see it was that JFK made 2  mistakes and if he had only made one he probably would still be around.   His first was not waiting until the next morning to make the flight and the  second was not engaging the a/p when things started to go badly.  I have an  old airline buddy that lives in CT within easy view of Long Island Sound when  airborne.  She went out to fly her Eagle the evening of JFK's accident and  after a couple of minutes thought to herself "what the heck am I doing flying in  this haze?"  She turned back to her home airfield and put the airplane away  for another day.  The good IFR training is always worth the money but there  are probably more than a few pilots that don't fly enough to maintain a high  level of proficiency, especially on the 1-2-3 method of instrument flying.   Anyway, enough from me on this subject.  

  

 Bill

 Glasair SIIS-FT

 [quote]   ---

n8zg(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:46 pm Post subject: VFR Preferred Instrumentation

Well said Bob !   Ladies and Gentlemen, Old Bob has exposed the nugget of this  thread.

  

 I'd add that it's  immeasurably safer (to your ticket and your person), and less expensive, too,  especially of you use your airplane to go places on anything resembling a  schedule.  

  

 I travel A LOT in the  course of my AF duties.  I take the CherokeeJet whenever  possible (115 Kts - WFO, downhill).  More often than not, I beat my  co-workers there _and_ home, at less expense, and on MY schedule, not the cattle  car's.  

  

 And always on a IFR  flight plan.  Simply couldn't do it VFR and make the meetings (or stay  married).  IFR will (OK, should) keep one out of a hot MOA or  campaigning congressman TFR... even those that bloom out of  nowhere...after launch...VFR (CAVU, even)...six hours and a fuel stop  en route...  (plausible fiction follows)

 FBI - "Capt George, why  were you flying a straight line from Morganton to Manassas that intersected the  TFR surrounding Congressman Bluster's campaign stop?"

 Me - "Didn't  happen."

 FBI - "Capt George, we have radar track data that puts  you directly over the congressman's podium while the TFR was  active."

 Me - "I called  1-800-WXBRIEF, talked to YOUR contractor, filed IFR Direct MRN-HEF,  specifically asked about TFRs, and was ensured there were no TFR's associated  with my route of flight.  We discussed en route weather and the area that  until recently resembled a certain mouse.  I had a discrete squawk code and  was in constant communication with ATC on an IFR flight plan under ATC  control.  How could I have violated a TFR?"

 FBI - "Capt George, give  me your License."

 Me - "NoSir.  I  remember the trouble Bob Hoover had...  Shall we review the  tape?"

 (End plausible fiction,  but I expect it would go downhill from there...)

  

 Anybody remember  a few weeks ago when one of our associates was beat up for "loitering"  over a power plant...at >160 kts...more than 5 NM away...well over 3000 ft  above...on a straight line to landing?  

  

 Bonus! - Dxxxx  Airlines can't abandon me in Atlanta <8-O - but I CAN drag out a fuel  stop to enjoy supper, or divert and spend the evening with friends or family if  the weather or SAFETY dictate...

  

 Neal E.  George 

2023 Everglades  Drive 

Navarre, FL  32566 

Home -  850-515-0640 

Cell -  850-218-4838 

  



 On Behalf Of BobsV35B(at)aol.com



    It is LOT easier to learn to fly IFR than it is to learn how to get around  the country safely in VFR conditions.

  

 Happy  Skies,



Old Bob





    [quote][b]

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