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talew(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:40 pm Post subject: yak 50

Speaking of YAK 50,s. 

 I found on the NTSB web site that on Oct 06 at  El Cajon Ca.  a couple of YAK 50,s bumped on landing . Number three  was hit by number four in a formation landing.

 No one was hurt. The N numbers were N 509ra  and N 950ms.

 Looks similar to Oshkosh but with better  results. 

 Terry

    [quote][b]

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:34 pm Post subject: yak 50

Bdog,  

You know anything about this?  Any more details? Should be if it happened on the 6th.   

Doc  

       

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Lewis

 Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 8:40 PM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: yak 50  

  

  

     

Speaking of YAK 50,s.   

    

I found on the NTSB web site that on Oct 06 at El Cajon Ca.  a couple of YAK 50,s bumped on landing . Number three was hit by number four in a formation landing.  

    

No one was hurt. The N numbers were N 509ra and N 950ms.  

    

Looks similar to Oshkosh but with better results.   

    

Terry  

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HawkerPilot2015

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 503

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:18 am Post subject: Re: yak 50

I know one of the tails off the top of my head. Hope all is ok with these birds and their pilots.

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:30 am Post subject: yak 50

According to the NTSB report the pilots are ok but the birds did not fair so

well. If you read the report, look at the winds.

Doc



--

dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:42 am Post subject: yak 50

The winds were almost straight down the runway at 13 knots gusting to 17 

knots;  260 degrees with the runway heading of 270 degrees.  I'm just glad 

they are OK.

Dennis



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djester(at)gjtbs.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:09 am Post subject: yak 50

Was this a true section formation landing?  If, yes, why is a tail wheel group landing in formation? Doesn’t seem safe to me.    

       

dave jester  

  

        

  

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Lewis

 Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 8:40 PM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: yak 50  

  

     

Speaking of YAK 50,s.   

    

I found on the NTSB web site that on Oct 06 at El Cajon Ca.  a couple of YAK 50,s bumped on landing . Number three was hit by number four in a formation landing.  

    

No one was hurt. The N numbers were N 509ra and N 950ms.  

    

Looks similar to Oshkosh but with better results.   

    

Terry  

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dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:22 am Post subject: yak 50

You're right on the money Dave.  It IS unsafe, especially  for a poor visibility Yak 50.  The TD will fall into that same  category.  Yes, it was a section formation landing.  This is precisely  why I will NOT do formation landings.  I don't do formation  flying for a living and I don't HAVE to do it if I don't want  to.   As far as I'm concerned, only full time demonstration teams  should do formation landings because they practice it every day  they fly.

 Dennis

  

 [quote]   ---

GreasySideUp

Joined: 24 Oct 2007
Posts: 44

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:26 am Post subject: Re: yak 50

Does FAST have regulations or guidance regarding formation landings?  Examples including min runway width, Xwind limitations, Wingtip spacing, centerline is a brick wall etc?  There have been a couple of bumps on landings lately, I wonder what soft rules if any are being broken.  



-j

djester(at)gjtbs.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:42 am Post subject: yak 50

In all my formation training, they preached against section landings in

tail wheeled aircraft.  It is not the accepted standard for FAST that I

am aware of and I would not attempt it.  It is far too easy to lose

directional control and prang the airplane.  It is much better to

stagger land with separation between the A/C (assuming a big wide

runway) or to stagger land with enough distance between the A/C (on a

not so wide runway).  That would allow for a margin of safety should one

of the ships get squirrelly on landing and roll out.  I wasn't there so

I am not passing judgment; I just believe that planes shouldn't "bump"

on the runway.     



 



dave jester



________________________________



From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com

[mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis

Savarese

Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 10:22 AM

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: yak 50



 



You're right on the money Dave.  It IS unsafe, especially for a poor

visibility Yak 50.  The TD will fall into that same category.  Yes, it

was a section formation landing.  This is precisely why I will NOT do

formation landings.  I don't do formation flying for a living and I

don't HAVE to do it if I don't want to.   As far as I'm concerned, only

full time demonstration teams should do formation landings because they

practice it every day they fly.



Dennis



 



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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:44 am Post subject: yak 50

What I was refering to with the winds comment was that the 50 is a floater anyway if you carry any extra over the fence. Add about 10-12 knots in the face and even though your landing speed is on the money she is still going to float. For a 2 point you are carrying about 30-40 klicks extra anyway. At least that is my technique. Even though you have 10-17 kts 10 deg off the nose, that is a double edged sword. It will give you extra drag slowing your approach down but it is also giving extra lift even if you are a draggy airplane but the 50 is not a draggy airplane. It has a high lift wing with excellent low speed characteristics. She's gonna float in this setting where you are carrying extra airspeed for a wheels landing. That is also the only way you can keep a visual on your wingman if doing an element landing. If you bring that 50 down the glide slope in a 3 point attitude your are not going to see crap over the nose until you look 30-35 deg off the side of the nose. I certainly can't do an element landing in the 3 point attitude, well maybe if I have a 500 ft wide runway, maybe. 

Nobody is saying these guys were trying to do a formation 3 point at all. All the details are not out yet and no judgement is being passed with these comments. It is only my observation from my limited esperience in the 50 taht I waould not be trying a n element landing.

I personally am not comfortable doing formation landings in the 50. Low approaches are one thing but not landings.

--

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:44 am Post subject: yak 50

What I was refering to with the winds comment was that the 50 is a floater anyway if you carry any extra over the fence. Add about 10-12 knots in the face and even though your landing speed is on the money she is still going to float. For a 2 point you are carrying about 30-40 klicks extra anyway. At least that is my technique. Even though you have 10-17 kts 10 deg off the nose, that is a double edged sword. It will give you extra drag slowing your approach down but it is also giving extra lift even if you are a draggy airplane but the 50 is not a draggy airplane. It has a high lift wing with excellent low speed characteristics. She's gonna float in this setting where you are carrying extra airspeed for a wheels landing. That is also the only way you can keep a visual on your wingman if doing an element landing. If you bring that 50 down the glide slope in a 3 point attitude your are not going to see crap over the nose until you look 30-35 deg off the side of the nose. I certainly can't do an element landing in the 3 point attitude, well maybe if I have a 500 ft wide runway, maybe. 

Nobody is saying these guys were trying to do a formation 3 point at all. All the details are not out yet and no judgement is being passed with these comments. It is only my observation from my limited esperience in the 50 taht I waould not be trying a n element landing.

I personally am not comfortable doing formation landings in the 50. Low approaches are one thing but not landings.

--

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:44 am Post subject: yak 50

Greasy,

Remember FAST only applies to flying in waivered airspace. The new RPA

manual does address element landings in tail draggers. It recommends they

not be done. The original fast manual, the T-34 manual, FORMATION FLIGHT

MANUAL, 4th edition, has a specific section addressing two of the tail

draggers. The  "type specific section" for both the P-51 and the T-6. It

states for the P-51; "Section landings are not done in P-51s due to control

and visibility limitations." Under the type specific section for the

AT-6/SNJ, again it states; "Due to control and visibility limitations,

section landings are generally not performed." The NATA wingman practical

test guide under Objective #13 states, "Terminal maneuvers: overhead

approach, break and landing or section landing at check pilot's discretion

(check pilot option not required in tail wheel aircraft).

This was weekend warrior flying and you can pretty much do what you want as

long as it does not violate a FAR (and you get caught at it). 

Just look and sound good on the radio! Chewing up you lead's empennage and

tail probably does not qualify for the "look good" section.

Chec 6,

Doc



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GreasySideUp

Joined: 24 Oct 2007
Posts: 44

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:07 am Post subject: Re: yak 50

As far as section landings in non conventional airplanes I'm curious what restrictions are placed there, if any, regarding spacing, min width, x winds etc.  I realize these publications are guidance only  - just curious if these issues are addressed / followed.  



On a related note, can I get a hold of these manuals?  Any electronic copies anyone could forward on?



Thanks,



-j

dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:16 am Post subject: yak 50

Excellent Doc.

Dennis



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djester(at)gjtbs.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:32 am Post subject: yak 50

In the "for whatever it's worth department", I would not brief nor would

I accept an opportunity by direction to do a section landing between

tail draggers nor between a tail dragger and a conventional A/C.  I like

my airplane to much to risk it.  Besides, it looks kinda cool coming in

to land in trail.  Even the Blue Angels do it that way...     



dave jester



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l39parts(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:53 am Post subject: yak 50

FAST has no authority to make regulations.  It's a clique with 'authority' over whoever wants to listen to them.  The feds make all the regs we need.  If you have any sense, use it to look out for your own ass.  If you don't have any sense, all the regs in the world won't help.

 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Re: yak 50

 From: greasysideup(at)hotmail.com

 Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 08:26:18 -0700

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 --> Yak-List message posted by: "GreasySideUp" <greasysideup(at)hotmail.com>

 Does FAST have regulations or guidance regarding formation landings? Examples including min runway width, Xwind limitations, Wingtip spacing, centerline is a brick wall etc? There have been a couple of bumps on landings lately, I wonder what soft rules if any are being broken. 

 -j

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=142741#142741

 > 

Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Café. Stop by today!  [quote][b]

steve.fox(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:18 am Post subject: yak 50

Clique? Actually FAST was created to keep the FED out of making up more stupid regs that could and probably would affect formation flying detrimentally. 

 



On Oct 30, 2007, at 2:53 PM, Ron Davis wrote:

[quote]FAST has no authority to make regulations.  It's a clique with 'authority' over whoever wants to listen to them.  The feds make all the regs we need.  If you have any sense, use it to look out for your own ass.  If you don't have any sense, all the regs in the world won't help.

[b]

ByronMFox(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:41 am Post subject: yak 50

I've been reading through the new FAST formation manual that is now available for download on the RPA's web site. It is very comprehensive and an excellent guide to safe formation flying. Drew Blahnick and the RPA's FAST check pilots have done a superb job of drawing together decades of hard won knowledge gained by Navy and Air Force flight training.    ...Blitz

*********************** [quote][b]

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:03 pm Post subject: yak 50

Agree Blitz.  

Doc  

     

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of ByronMFox(at)aol.com

 Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 2:40 PM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: yak 50  

  

   

I've been reading through the new FAST formation manual that is now available for download on the RPA's web site. It is very comprehensive and an excellent guide to safe formation flying. Drew Blahnick and the RPA's FAST check pilots have done a superb job of drawing together decades of hard won knowledge gained by Navy and Air Force flight training.   ..Blitz

 

 

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wlannon(at)persona.ca
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:24 pm Post subject: yak 50

Geez!! good thing I did not know that.

  

 We managed twenty years of 4 plane Harvard  (T6) airshow formation work with hundreds of formation landings, two plane  mostly but many times 4 (in finger) if runway width was adequate.

 If crosswind conditions dictated we used an  alternating (left/right) stream landing with about 2 sec. separation over the  button.

  

 In all cases these were, of course, wheel  landings. Somehow in our ignorance we managed not to scratch anything -  amazing!

  

 Walt 

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