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jessejenks(at)hotmail.com
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 Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:20 am Post subject: AeroElectric-List Digest: 20 Msgs - 10/22/07 |
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Great discussion on instrument training vs. autopilot. I am definitely on Old Bob's side. Spend the money on training. It will make you so much safer and more confident, and increase your fun factor. I fly IFR professionally every day in an airplane with 2 very capable autopilots, and still enjoy the sense of satisfaction that comes from hand flying in the clouds. I know some people here don't have access to that level of training or practice, but there are other ways to maintain proficiency. In the past when I have periods where I don't fly IFR regularly, I simply turn on Microsoft Flight Simulator. It is a very effective way to practice. Also, force yourself to spend time during normal flying to practice on instruments. Take a safety pilot and a hood. It WILL make you a better and safer pilot. An autopilot can not do that for you. I part ways with my opinion of the attitude indicator though. Simply put, it is the only instrument that you could safely use to fly the airplane IMC all by itself. Needle ball and airspeed is a great skill to practice, but in modern times that is called "partial panel" Sorry Old Bob. I am genuinely curious though about why you prefer the T&B over the turn coordinator? On a fun/related note, I was catching a ride on an Airbus yesterday and had to sit in the cockpit because the cabin was full. The First Officer was flying from DCA to ORD in some fairly nasty weather. That airplane is extremely automated, but he hand flew most of the departure and arrival procedures. We are still pilots guys. Don't rely on computers to do your job.
Jesse
[quote] Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 23:55:38 -0700
From: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
To: aeroelectric-list-digest(at)matronics.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List Digest: 20 Msgs - 10/22/07
*
=========================
Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
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Today's complete AeroElectric-List Digest can also be found in either of the
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=======================
EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
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----------------------------------------------------------
AeroElectric-List Digest Archive
---
Total Messages Posted Mon 10/22/07: 20
----------------------------------------------------------
Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:18 AM - Re: Solid State Relay Alert (Nuisance)
2. 08:04 AM - Re: Becoming CAD-proficient to a practical level of usefulness (Eric M. Jones)
3. 08:24 AM - Re: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
4. 09:20 AM - Re: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation (Terry Watson)
5. 09:40 AM - Re: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
6. 09:41 AM - Re: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation (BobsV35B(at)aol.com)
7. 09:55 AM - Re: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation (Bret Smith)
8. 10:08 AM - Re: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
9. 10:19 AM - Re: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
10. 11:39 AM - Re: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation (Terry Watson)
11. 12:30 PM - Re: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation (BobsV35B(at)aol.com)
12. 01:48 PM - Re: FW: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation (BobsV35B(at)aol.com)
13. 03:42 PM - Re: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation (Bill Hibbing)
14. 04:08 PM - Re: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation (Ed Anderson)
15. 04:42 PM - Re: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation (H. M. Haught Jr.)
16. 04:43 PM - Re: Re: Becoming CAD-proficient to a practical level of usefulness (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
17. 04:43 PM - Re: Re: Solid State Relay Alert (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
18. 04:52 PM - Re: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation (BobsV35B(at)aol.com)
19. 06:38 PM - Re: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation (Bill Hibbing)
20. 08:46 PM - Re: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation (Neal George)
________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________
Time: 06:18:30 AM PST US
Subject: Re: Solid State Relay Alert
From: "Nuisance" <aflyer(at)lazy8.net>
Bob, is this a bi-polar device? !.5 Volts drop is pretty typical for a darlington.
Wouldn't the power FET based SSRs do pretty well at the 5 - 10 Amp load range
common for lights, fuel pumps, radios, etc.?
John
--------
Life is too short to run lean of peak.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=141074#141074
________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________
Time: 08:04:54 AM PST US
Subject: Re: Becoming CAD-proficient to a practical level of
usefulness
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
> About 1985, I was where you are today. I had a PC-XT, 20Mb
> hard drive, yellow screen computer with the grand total of
> 640K of ram. I think the thing ran at the blazing speed
> of 4MHz.
Bob,
4.77 MHz. You must have been a rich man. That system isn't far from $10k when you
add it up. A box of 5 1/4" diskettes was $50.
See: http://www.periheliondesign.com/downloads/tandy1989.pdf
I want to put in two cents for the non-AutoCAD world. AutoCAD was always the personal
computer CAD leader, and their prices show it. For professionals it is
a great choice.
For less-frequent users, AutoCAD Lite is not considered by many to be the best
choice compared to several smaller programs. TurboCAD may be the most popular
smaller program. I personally use DesignCAD, which one reviewed referred to as
"Just like ACAD but $3,000 cheaper." I liked DesignCAD because you can call their
tech support and get right through immediately.
As for learning curve....In a short afternoon, one can go through all the CAD commands,
but becoming proficient takes time. Nothing makes it easier than to WANT
to draw something. Desire is the best motivation. Learning is very hard by
the slow rote method.
I sometimes think everyone should learn CAD, but that's only because I love it.
Realistically, for some it may be a waste of time. But if you like engineering
and design there is no option.
Some change of thinking is required to introduce CAD to the beginner. Beginners
often think of CAD as just a clumsy way of drawing. Then they learn about some
odd and wonderful ideas--
--CAD has no scale. Everything is done "life-sized". For layout purposes ONLY,
the output can be scaled, but don't scale printed drawings generally.
--CAD drawings can be directly used to make parts.
--CAD can draw things that are almost IMPOSSIBLE to draw otherwise. Spirals, splines,
geometric non-linear shapes for example.
--CAD can reuse drawings and parts of drawings. This is hugely powerful and time
saving and more than makes up for the strange kabuki dance you have to learn
to use CAD.
Free gift for CAD users--
See: http://www.periheliondesign.com/downloads/Superellipses.pdf
"Everything you've learned in school as "obvious" becomes
less and less obvious as you begin to study the universe.
For example, there are no solids in the universe. There's
not even a suggestion of a solid. There are no absolute con-
tinuums. There are no surfaces. There are no straight lines."
- R. Buckminster Fuller
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=141090#141090
________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________
Time: 08:24:55 AM PST US
Subject: RE: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com>
I guess the question for me is the whole concept of a VFR panel with
"some" IFR capabilities.
If what we are saying is an IFR pilot who mainly flys VFR and who wants
to do enroute IFR, thats one thing and perfectly OK.
If we are talking about a VFR pilot who intends to fly "special" that to
me is a fine line as the average VFR jock has little knowledge of
weather and one day will almost certainly cut it too fine and find
himself up the proverbial creek without a paddle.
To that end its just a matter of time before a WX emergency happens and
then as you said the A/P is for an emergency backup...even so there is
still no need for an AI.
11K really?...WoW!..I paid 9k (with a 430 and needles) for a full IFR
panel in the RV7.
I think the discussion started with our VFR friend wondering what he
needed in the panel...The approach I took is "you better be able to see
out the window"...And if you can then an AI is redundant..But an A/P is
a useful device and can be used to get your tail on the ground (together
with a resolution to get an IFR ticket) in the event of the WX
emergency.
At least thats how I ended up with my IFR ticket....
Frank
________________________________
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bret
Smith
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 11:40 AM
Subject: RE: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
Frank,
I agree with you up to a point... The panel shown is an actual panel
offered by Chief Aircraft and sells for $11,450.00!
http://www.chiefaircraft.com/airsec/Avionics/Avionics.html
You can actually do even better through John Stark. He had asked what
"I" would suggest for a VFR panel with some IFR capabilities. The
addition of an autopilot is for workload reduction or as a primary
backup in the event of an in-flight emergency.
I suppose any discussion on panel instrumentation should really be
prefaced with the intended price range...i.e.,
VFR panel under $5000.00
VFR/IFR panel under $10,000.00
IFR panel under $20,000.00
I personally know many pilots who spend $100,000+ for a spam can with 20
year old avionics only to spend another $20,000 to upgrade the panel.
To each his own.
Bret Smith
RV-9A (91314)
Mineral Bluff, GA
www.FlightInnovations.com
________________________________
________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________
Time: 09:20:00 AM PST US
From: "Terry Watson" <terry(at)tcwatson.com>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
Most of us who are building or flying RV's will remember that we lost Bill
Benedict, then general manager of Vans, and his son Jeremy in the factory's
gyroless RV-9(?) in low clouds on the way to an air show. Both were
competent pilots and both knew better than to fly into the clouds, yet they
did. Until that time, I think Van always thought of his designs as planes
you looked out the window to fly, as did perhaps most of the builders. I
believe most of the factory RV's now have some sort of artificial horizon or
autopilot, or both.
Terry
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hinde,
Frank George (Corvallis)
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 8:23 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
I guess the question for me is the whole concept of a VFR panel with "some"
IFR capabilities.
If what we are saying is an IFR pilot who mainly flys VFR and who wants to
do enroute IFR, thats one thing and perfectly OK.
If we are talking about a VFR pilot who intends to fly "special" that to me
is a fine line as the average VFR jock has little knowledge of weather and
one day will almost certainly cut it too fine and find himself up the
proverbial creek without a paddle.
To that end its just a matter of time before a WX emergency happens and then
as you said the A/P is for an emergency backup...even so there is still no
need for an AI.
11K really?...WoW!..I paid 9k (with a 430 and needles) for a full IFR panel
in the RV7.
I think the discussion started with our VFR friend wondering what he needed
in the panel...The approach I took is "you better be able to see out the
window"...And if you can then an AI is redundant...But an A/P is a useful
device and can be used to get your tail on the ground (together with a
resolution to get an IFR ticket) in the event of the WX emergency.
At least thats how I ended up with my IFR ticket....
Frank
________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________
Time: 09:40:23 AM PST US
Subject: RE: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com>
Yes indeed Terry, tragic and very avoidable accident.
Its hard for me to imaging is Bill was a very experienced VFR or IFR
pilot he would have done that...But the bottom line is he did.
But then an A/P (especially a Pictorial pilot which has reliable turn
coordinator display) is quite adequate to keep straight and level and
safely do shallow turns.
Frank
________________________________
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry
Watson
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 9:20 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
Most of us who are building or flying RV's will remember that we lost
Bill Benedict, then general manager of Vans, and his son Jeremy in the
factory's gyroless RV-9(?) in low clouds on the way to an air show. Both
were competent pilots and both knew better than to fly into the clouds,
yet they did. Until that time, I think Van always thought of his designs
as planes you looked out the window to fly, as did perhaps most of the
builders. I believe most of the factory RV's now have some sort of
artificial horizon or autopilot, or both.
Terry
________________________________
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 8:23 AM
Subject: RE: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
I guess the question for me is the whole concept of a VFR panel with
"some" IFR capabilities.
If what we are saying is an IFR pilot who mainly flys VFR and who wants
to do enroute IFR, thats one thing and perfectly OK.
If we are talking about a VFR pilot who intends to fly "special" that to
me is a fine line as the average VFR jock has little knowledge of
weather and one day will almost certainly cut it too fine and find
himself up the proverbial creek without a paddle.
To that end its just a matter of time before a WX emergency happens and
then as you said the A/P is for an emergency backup...even so there is
still no need for an AI.
11K really?...WoW!..I paid 9k (with a 430 and needles) for a full IFR
panel in the RV7.
I think the discussion started with our VFR friend wondering what he
needed in the panel...The approach I took is "you better be able to see
out the window"...And if you can then an AI is redundant...But an A/P is
a useful device and can be used to get your tail on the ground (together
with a resolution to get an IFR ticket) in the event of the WX
emergency.
At least thats how I ended up with my IFR ticket....
Frank
________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________
Time: 09:41:35 AM PST US
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
In a message dated 10/22/2007 11:23:50 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
terry(at)tcwatson.com writes:
Most of us who are building or flying RV=99s will remember that we lo
st Bill
Benedict, then general manager of Vans, and his son Jeremy in the factory
=99s
gyroless RV-9(?) in low clouds on the way to an air show. Both were compete
nt
pilots and both knew better than to fly into the clouds, yet they did. Unti
l
that time, I think Van always thought of his designs as planes you looked o
ut
the window to fly, as did perhaps most of the builders. I believe most of t
he
factory RV=99s now have some sort of artificial horizon or autopilot,
or
both.
Terry
I know I am an outsider to this list, but please, let's all realize that
instrument competency is not an inborne trait.
It takes training and practice to maintain proficiency.
Buying an autopilot or installing an attitude gyro is not sufficient to kee
p
us alive without instrument proficiency.
Twenty hours of serious training with needle, ball and airspeed will do the
initial job, but proficiency requires constant use. For one thing, it is mu
ch
easier to fly IFR in the system than it is to convert a VFR flight into an
IFR one. Even the most experienced and competent IFR pilot has his/her hands
full when encountering IFR in an unplanned manner.
Please, PLEASE! Do not count on an autopilot to save your life.
Learn how and practice how to use the simplest of instrumentation. It may
not be legal, but it will save your life and the life of those who may be ri
ding
with you.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________
Time: 09:55:28 AM PST US
From: "Bret Smith" <smithhb(at)tds.net>
Subject: Re: Re: VFR Preferred Instrumentation
Frank,
Very eloquently spoken. Just think, for another 2K, you could have had
glass! (Just kidding) That reminded me of during my IFR training when
I learned that the AI is never a primary instrument. Made me wonder why
every VFR equipped Cessna and Piper had one.
Thanks for your input on this List...
Bret Smith
RV-9A "Fuselage"
Blue Ridge, GA
www.FlightInnovations.com
---
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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:46 am Post subject: AeroElectric-List Digest: 20 Msgs - 10/22/07 |
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In a message dated 10/25/2007 12:24:30 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jessejenks(at)hotmail.com writes:
| Quote: | | Sorry Old Bob. I am genuinely curious though about why you prefer the T&B over the turn coordinator? |
Good Afternoon Jesse,
I have written about that several times on this and other lists. I will send the compilation of data to you off list. If you can wade through my disjointed thoughts, you may not agree with my reasons, but I think you will see how and why I came to the conclusions that I have.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
See what's [quote][b]
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