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indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
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 Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:29 pm Post subject: fuel tank access panel, updated! |
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I took the suggestion of those that responded to my post and have found
unfortunetly all the things I have been contemplating, worrying about over
the last few weeks are true...The panel will not budge!!!!!!!!!
Just for the record, in the original placement, I did not use the cork
gasket in addition to the proseal.
I roughened up the aluminum with a scotch brite pad or 220 sand paper. I
tightened down the plate with the screws, there is no room for a metal
instrument let alone a fiber feinforced instrument.
Tonight I attempted removal with an exacto blade to start, then a chisel(at
the edge only) and obviously a plastic instrument which is no way stong
enough to do anything. I didn't even get an edge lifted.
I do understand why holes need to be deburred and why scratches lead to a
failure in a piece of aluminum which is under force. With that said, let's
move forward>>>>>
The bond is so strong that it is like to pieces of glass put together with a
thin film of water. We don't have the luxury of sliding the surfaces apart.
If I really work at this I am sure I am going to destroy my tank. The entire
rear wall of the tank flexs.
Here is why I am trying to open the tank:
Three weeks ago I closed the tanks. One weekend prior I riveted the
nutplates to the tank and stiffner. I hadn't realized that one of my
nutplates never got riveted,(couldn't find my dental mouth mirror and my
head is not small enough to stick down in the hole). I even cleaned the
proseal from the holes and didn't realize its absense. The week later in a
rush before a doctor's appointment, I closed the tanks with the access plate
and proseal. After placing the plate with the proseal and getting half the
screws in one of the screws did not bite into anything(The missing
nutplate). I didn't have time disassemble and to clean everything before
leaving for my doctors appointment which would take me away form the project
for atleast three hours. I just continued to close everything up and really
coated the problem screw.
So for three weeks I have been studying this situation, the tanks have been
leak tested and passed. The screw with out the nutplate was sealed in with
sealant through the hole and around and over the top of the screw head. The
access plate top surface around the area of the screw was sanded and the
bond to the proseal was exceptional. The screw in question was not the top
screw but the next to the top when the tank is in the normal flying
position. If for some reason it failed or leaked, fell out, it would not
drain the tank. Remember, the tanks are not under pressure, but the sloshing
of fuel might create a flex in the rear wall, but doughtful with the baffle
ribs and the tank access panel being 1/8th inch thick.
This was never in my opinion a strength issue, the stiffner plate was strong
enough, there are 11 of the twelve screws in place at one inch intervals and
the stiffner plate was independently riveted and also prosealed. Then the
access plate is 1/8 inch aluminum bonded with proseal, as we learned
tonight, appears to be bullet proof when surfaces are roughened up.
Where am I now? No seal has been broken except the screws. No knicks or
dings, so I will not take myself out of the gene pool by what I have done.
Do I put it back as it was or do I attempt a heat gun(Does anyone know if
this works?) and still posibly deform the rear of the tank.
Do I offer to fly John Cox down to see just how easy this is(or isn't)
Okay John Cox, time to shine on you Crazy Diamond.
Thanks,
Well thought out suggestion please!!!
John G 409
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coop85(at)cableone.net
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:42 pm Post subject: fuel tank access panel, updated! |
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John,
In my RV-6 and 7 building days, I remember guys making access panels on
the back of the tank to fix something after closing the tank. You might
want to research the archives on those lists for more info.
This is in the wild idea area, but I wonder if there is a sealed end rivet
like those used on the back of the tank that would fit the hole you have.
Yes you would be short a mounting screw, but that would be better than a
hole just filled with sealant. As I said, just an idea, no guarantees it's
a good one.
Good luck,
Marcus
40286
Do not archive
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ricksked(at)embarqmail.co
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:41 pm Post subject: fuel tank access panel, updated! |
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John,
Do you have a high temp heat gun? I use one for heat shrink. The proseal should soften some by heating up the plate and you should be able to start to slip you blade in to start working the panel off.
Rick S.
40185
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pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:17 am Post subject: fuel tank access panel, updated! |
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John Gonzalez wrote:
| Quote: |
I took the suggestion of those that responded to my post and have
found unfortunetly all the things I have been contemplating, worrying
about over the last few weeks are true...The panel will not
budge!!!!!!!!!
|
snip
| Quote: | Thanks,
Well thought out suggestion please!!!
|
Don't know just how well thought out this is ...... but under the
circumstances, I'd put the screws (with nutplates) back in ......but I'd
cut down the screw (without the nutplate) so that it barely extends
through the rib&cover ..... to get rid of the bending loads caused by
the fuel. Reseal just like you did before and add a note to your
conditional inspection checklist to check it during the inspection.
Linn
do not archive
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indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:02 am Post subject: fuel tank access panel, updated! |
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A few things I would like to add to this post for others to process.
While trying to take the cover off last night I was analysing the whole
process.
After removing the excess proseal from around and over the top edges of the
problem screw, I gripped the head of the screw with channel locks to see how
difficult it would be to remove by pulling straight up. I never got it to
move and the channel locks slipped off everytime. I physically needed to
unscrew the screw to break the grip of the proseal.
Here is what I think I have learned from this.
If one is not to use the supplied cork gasket with or without proseal then
perhaps do not tighten the screws so tight, this will allow the ability to
get something between the two metal plates.
If one scuffs up the aluminum prior to proseal application, the proseal acts
like a structural adhesive.
If proseal is placed on polished aluminum, like the parts come from Van's,
the proseal acts like a gasket. This is better for future panel removal.
Next time you use proseal place some on the two types of surfaces and see
what I mean.
Unless the heat gun really works on a test piece, the best remedy I can
think of is to keep the screw the same length, turn the tank upside down
(leading edge up) while placing the proseal back into this hole, the proseal
will pool up on the inside surface of the hole. Coat the threads and head
the screw with proseal and insert it back into the hole while rotating the
screw. The glob of proseal on the inside surface of the tank will chemically
join with the proseal on the end of the screw and it's threads. This will
work out even better then the screw placement before.
Conditional inspection a good idea, but would require an an access port
construction in the tank skin flange(don't think I can do this in this area)
or remove the tank every so many hours to check for leak which would mean no
paint on the wings.
Keep the ideas coming, it is actually a very good mental exercise
JOhn G.
| Quote: | From: "John Gonzalez" <indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com>
Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: fuel tank access panel, updated!
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:27:53 -0800
I took the suggestion of those that responded to my post and have found
unfortunetly all the things I have been contemplating, worrying about over
the last few weeks are true...The panel will not budge!!!!!!!!!
Just for the record, in the original placement, I did not use the cork
gasket in addition to the proseal.
I roughened up the aluminum with a scotch brite pad or 220 sand paper. I
tightened down the plate with the screws, there is no room for a metal
instrument let alone a fiber feinforced instrument.
Tonight I attempted removal with an exacto blade to start, then a chisel(at
the edge only) and obviously a plastic instrument which is no way stong
enough to do anything. I didn't even get an edge lifted.
I do understand why holes need to be deburred and why scratches lead to a
failure in a piece of aluminum which is under force. With that said, let's
move forward>>>>>
The bond is so strong that it is like to pieces of glass put together with
a thin film of water. We don't have the luxury of sliding the surfaces
apart.
If I really work at this I am sure I am going to destroy my tank. The
entire rear wall of the tank flexs.
Here is why I am trying to open the tank:
Three weeks ago I closed the tanks. One weekend prior I riveted the
nutplates to the tank and stiffner. I hadn't realized that one of my
nutplates never got riveted,(couldn't find my dental mouth mirror and my
head is not small enough to stick down in the hole). I even cleaned the
proseal from the holes and didn't realize its absense. The week later in a
rush before a doctor's appointment, I closed the tanks with the access
plate and proseal. After placing the plate with the proseal and getting
half the screws in one of the screws did not bite into anything(The missing
nutplate). I didn't have time disassemble and to clean everything before
leaving for my doctors appointment which would take me away form the
project for atleast three hours. I just continued to close everything up
and really coated the problem screw.
So for three weeks I have been studying this situation, the tanks have been
leak tested and passed. The screw with out the nutplate was sealed in with
sealant through the hole and around and over the top of the screw head. The
access plate top surface around the area of the screw was sanded and the
bond to the proseal was exceptional. The screw in question was not the top
screw but the next to the top when the tank is in the normal flying
position. If for some reason it failed or leaked, fell out, it would not
drain the tank. Remember, the tanks are not under pressure, but the
sloshing of fuel might create a flex in the rear wall, but doughtful with
the baffle ribs and the tank access panel being 1/8th inch thick.
This was never in my opinion a strength issue, the stiffner plate was
strong enough, there are 11 of the twelve screws in place at one inch
intervals and the stiffner plate was independently riveted and also
prosealed. Then the access plate is 1/8 inch aluminum bonded with proseal,
as we learned tonight, appears to be bullet proof when surfaces are
roughened up.
Where am I now? No seal has been broken except the screws. No knicks or
dings, so I will not take myself out of the gene pool by what I have done.
Do I put it back as it was or do I attempt a heat gun(Does anyone know if
this works?) and still posibly deform the rear of the tank.
Do I offer to fly John Cox down to see just how easy this is(or isn't)
Okay John Cox, time to shine on you Crazy Diamond.
Thanks,
Well thought out suggestion please!!!
John G 409
|
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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AV8ORJWC
Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:18 am Post subject: fuel tank access panel, updated! |
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John, send me your address and I will forward some plastic scrapers for
your project. Part-All is another step in the proper application and
removal of ProSeal. It is a release agent common to fiberglass form
work.
Be thankful we don't digress into adhesion accelerators for pro seal.
In a pinch, the judicious application of MEK with proper barrier
protection gloves will begin to nudge your stubborn sealant.
John C. - home from Graveyard.
Do not Archive
--
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german.alvarez(at)playali
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:04 am Post subject: fuel tank access panel, updated! |
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I do not know the exact size of the fuel tack access panel, and this may
be totally wrong, I hope the self regulating power of the list validates
this, but have you consider a suction-cup like the one used in raised
floors or to carry glass/appliances?
http://www.anver.com/document/company/vacuum%20handcups.htm
some of them can pull 500 lb.
--ga
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