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isaligman(at)saligman.com
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 Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:55 am Post subject: Car Gas |
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|
It seems that a number of folks use a mixture of car and avgas in their M14's and the planes run great.
I am wondering how bad ethanol really is.
In many states, including PA all the pumps now say "may include up to 10% ethanol" (sometimes 15%)
I understand that alcohol is bad for rubber but how bad is a 75% gas with a 10% mixture (75% car gas, 25% avgas)
If you have any experience here can you shed some light on the following:
Which seals/Diaphragms or other parts will be potentially affected?
What ratios do you mix the two fuels?
Is there ethanol in the gas you use?
Have you seen any negative effects from Ethanol?
Anything else you find useful.
Ira Saligman
o 610 940 0420
c 610 324 5500
f 215 243 7699
isaligman(at)Saligman.com (isaligman(at)Saligman.com)
[quote][b]
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brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 10:56 am Post subject: Car Gas |
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|
On Nov 26, 2007, at 8:43 AM, Ira Saligman wrote:
| Quote: | It seems that a number of folks use a mixture of car and avgas in
their M14's and the planes run great.
I am wondering how bad ethanol really is.
|
There are really two problems with ethanol in fuel:
1. It is hygroscopic -- it absorbs water. It will hold water in
suspension so it can't be drained but then will drop the water out of
suspension upon reaching some lower temperature. Most annoying to
drain your sumps, find the fuel clear, take off, and then have to
make a forced landing with a dead engine 'cause your carb and fuel
lines are full of the water that came out of the fuel when the fuel
cooled at altitude.
2. It can attack some materials.
Based on this, I am not a fan of using gasoline that contains any
alcohol.
You can test for alcohol. I made a tester out of an old martini olive
jar. Put a mark at about 10% and another at about 90%. Fill with
water to the 10% mark and then with fuel to the 90% mark. Cap and
shake well. Let it sit until it separates. If the dividing line
between the water and fuel has changed from the 10% mark (it will
have dropped) then your fuel contains alcohol. If not, it is alcohol
free and may be used in your airplane.
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brianl AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:20 pm Post subject: Car Gas |
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Brian, are you talking about Phase Separation? When gas that contains
ethanol is cooled, the mixture actually will break down into two
separate layers. The top layer will be gas that loses some of the
ethanol. Which means that the octane rating drops as well as
volatility. The bottom layer will be a water/ethanol rich MIX... Up to
around 75% ethanol.
The scary thing is that a combo ethanol/gas mix can absorb about 46
times more water than gas alone. It would be interesting to run an
experiment and see just would happen in an airplane that increased
altitude and thus slowly cooled the mixture to see if one could actually
stop the engine. I am not positive that would happen, but there is no
question there could be a power change.
The whole thing is moot anyway since the FAA prohibits ANY aircraft from
flying with this mixture. That is what you really need to know Ira.
Mark Bitterlich
--
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:47 pm Post subject: Car Gas |
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On the same note: I saw a television show that said that "straight gas"
was going to be very hard to find within a year. Anyone heard any pros
or cons on this issue as well? What do we do when there is nothing BUT
"gasahol" or whatever you want to call it.
Mark Bitterlich
--
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Dale
Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 178
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:39 pm Post subject: Re: Car Gas |
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I personally looked at two aircraft where the ethanol fuel destroyed the fuel systems. Each caused a engine failure with small pieces being stuck in the carburetors and fuel system. In both cases draining the fuel and starting over did nothing to help the problem after it started the deterioration of the system. The EAA did a lot of initial testing of auto fuel and in the approval it only approves fuel without ethanol. MTBE was approved. A lot of small seals will swell also. Without knowing what all the rubber and sealants are you should not use auto fuel. In both cases I viewed in detail the aircraft used only auto gas and for a extended period of time of 5 to 7 years. One of the aircraft was never flown again. The other was sold with the idea it needed a complete reseal on tanks and new fuel system. Neither aircraft were Red Stars.
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cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:53 pm Post subject: Car Gas |
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Turbines. that means kerosene.
Some years ago at OSH that question was brought up at a WarBird conference at OSH. The speaker then was a Shell guy. This has been a while back but his basic answer was that there are only a small number of refineries that produce the total aviation (100LL) fuel for the US market. It may become a matter of "how much you willing to pay" over unavailability. Can you covert you CJ to a turbo prop? I bet so. Look at the T-34C.
Kerosene production facilities already take care of the airlines and corporate world. It may just a matter of putting that 600hp turbo on the front. At OSH this year I saw a Extra with one on the front, however I don't think he was worried about availability of 110LL. 
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 11/26/2007 6:49:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil writes:
| Quote: | --> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>
On the same note: I saw a television show that said that "straight gas"
was going to be very hard to find within a year. Anyone heard any pros
or cons on this issue as well? What do we do when there is nothing BUT
"gasahol" or whatever you want to call it.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ira Saligman
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 11:43
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Car Gas
It seems that a number of folks use a mixture of car and avgas in their
M14's and the planes run great.
I am wondering how bad ethanol really is.
In many states, including PA all the pumps now say "may include up to
10% ethanol" (sometimes 15%)
I understand that alcohol is bad for rubber but how bad is a 75% gas
with a 10% mixture (75% car gas, 25% avgas)
If you have any experience here can you shed some light on the
following:
Which seals/Diaphragms or other parts will be potentially affected?
What ratios do you mix the two fuels?
Is there ethanol in the gas you use?
Have you seen any negative effects from Ethanol?
Anything else you find useful.
Ira Saligman
o 610 940 0420
c 610 324 5500
f 215 243 7699
isaligman(at)Saligman.com <mailto:isaligman(at)Saligman.com> sp; (And Get Some AWESOME FREE find you for -Matt Dralle, List es y --> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ======================
|
Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007.
[quote][b]
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brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 5:47 pm Post subject: Car Gas |
|
|
On Nov 26, 2007, at 2:56 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,
MALS-14 64E wrote:
| Quote: | The scary thing is that a combo ethanol/gas mix can absorb about 46
times more water than gas alone. It would be interesting to run an
experiment and see just would happen in an airplane that increased
altitude and thus slowly cooled the mixture to see if one could
actually
stop the engine. I am not positive that would happen, but there is no
question there could be a power change.
|
You can actually freeze the water out of the gasoline/ethanol
mixture. The water can then freeze in the lines or just make a mess
of things.
| Quote: |
The whole thing is moot anyway since the FAA prohibits ANY aircraft
from
flying with this mixture. That is what you really need to know Ira.
|
I know that the FAA prohibits it in production aircraft. I am not
sure that is true for experimental aircraft. Please correct me if my
memory is faulty.
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brianl AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 6:18 pm Post subject: Car Gas |
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That is if cost is no object and then if JP4 is available at your local small town airport.
Dennis
[quote] ---
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:47 pm Post subject: Car Gas |
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| Quote: | Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-1927(at)lloyd.com> wrote:
You can actually freeze the water out of the
gasoline/ethanol mixture. The water can then
freeze in the lines or just make a mess of things.
|
Seems to me we did the same thing as kids with Apple Cider mixed with
some of this and some of that.
You froze it, filtered out the slush and drank it. Commonly known as
"Applejack".
That formula also used to make quite a mess of things... Me included.
Mark Bitterlich
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fish(at)aviation-tech.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:13 pm Post subject: Car Gas |
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Jim,
The T-34C is different enough to be a completely differernt
aircraft. It just looks like to old T-34.
The T-34C is a fun airplane to fly, I have about 25 hours
(Airworitheness Qualification Test directorate, US Army
flight Test). We used them as chase aircraft for flight
testing UH-60 and AH-64's.
Laterrr
John Fischer
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: cjpilot710(at)aol.com
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Car Gas
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 19:21:14 EST
| Quote: | Turbines. that means kerosene.
Some years ago at OSH that question was brought up at a
WarBird conference at OSH. The speaker then was a Shell
guy. This has been a while back but his basic answer
was that there are only a small number of refineries that
produce the total aviation (100LL) fuel for the US
market. It may become a matter of "how much you willing
to pay" over unavailability. Can you covert you CJ to a
turbo prop? I bet so. Look at the T-34C.
Kerosene production facilities already take care of the
airlines and corporate world. It may just a matter of
putting that 600hp turbo on the front. At OSH this year
I saw a Extra with one on the front, however I don't
think he was worried about availability of 110LL.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 11/26/2007 6:49:34 P.M. Eastern
Standard Time, mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil writes:
Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E"
<mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>
On the same note: I saw a television show that said that
"straight gas" was going to be very hard to find within a
year. Anyone heard any pros or cons on this issue as
well? What do we do when there is nothing BUT "gasahol"
or whatever you want to call it.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Ira Saligman Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 11:43
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Car Gas
It seems that a number of folks use a mixture of car and
avgas in their M14's and the planes run great.
I am wondering how bad ethanol really is.
In many states, including PA all the pumps now say "may
include up to 10% ethanol" (sometimes 15%)
I understand that alcohol is bad for rubber but how bad
is a 75% gas with a 10% mixture (75% car gas, 25% avgas)
If you have any experience here can you shed some light on
the following:
Which seals/Diaphragms or other parts will be potentially
affected?
What ratios do you mix the two fuels?
Is there ethanol in the gas you use?
Have you seen any negative effects from Ethanol?
Anything else you find useful.
Ira Saligman
o 610 940 0420
c 610 324 5500
f 215 243 7699
isaligman(at)Saligman.com <mailto:isaligman(at)Saligman.com>
**************************************Check out AOL's list
of 2007's hottest products.
(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aolto
p00030000000001)
|
| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:21 pm Post subject: Car Gas |
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|
Yo Bro! Can you imagine a turbine on the nose of a 50!? Gotta be pushing >9000 fpm climb rate! That 33 gal internal would be a mere appetizer though!
Doc
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 6:21 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Car Gas
Turbines. that means kerosene.
Some years ago at OSH that question was brought up at a WarBird conference at OSH. The speaker then was a Shell guy. This has been a while back but his basic answer was that there are only a small number of refineries that produce the total aviation (100LL) fuel for the US market. It may become a matter of "how much you willing to pay" over unavailability. Can you covert you CJ to a turbo prop? I bet so. Look at the T-34C.
Kerosene production facilities already take care of the airlines and corporate world. It may just a matter of putting that 600hp turbo on the front. At OSH this year I saw a Extra with one on the front, however I don't think he was worried about availability of 110LL.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 11/26/2007 6:49:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil writes:
[quote]
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>
On the same note: I saw a television show that said that "straight gas"
was going to be very hard to find within a year. Anyone heard any pros
or cons on this issue as well? What do we do when there is nothing BUT
"gasahol" or whatever you want to call it.
Mark Bitterlich
--
| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:41 pm Post subject: Car Gas |
|
|
A P-51 with a turbine. Interesting thought.
Mark Bitterlich
--
| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:07 pm Post subject: Car Gas |
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|
John,
Now if you say that to some of the guys on this list, they will argue and belittle you. Just trying to get them to admit the glaring difference between the Yak 18A and CJ-6 has been impossible.
Did you know that the T-34a/b share the same airfoil NASA 23015 & 4422 (at the tip).
Does the T-34C have the same airfoil and wing?
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 11/26/2007 11:13:58 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, fish(at)aviation-tech.com writes:
| Quote: | --> Yak-List message posted by: "fish(at)aviation-tech.com" <fish(at)aviation-tech.com>
Jim,
The T-34C is different enough to be a completely differernt
aircraft. It just looks like to old T-34.
The T-34C is a fun airplane to fly, I have about 25 hours
(Airworitheness Qualification Test directorate, US Army
flight Test). We used them as chase aircraft for flight
testing UH-60 and AH-64's.
Laterrr
John Fischer
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: cjpilot710(at)aol.com
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Car Gas
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 19:21:14 EST
| Quote: | Turbines. that means kerosene.
Some years ago at OSH that question was brought up at a
WarBird conference at OSH. The speaker then was a Shell
guy. This has been a while back but his basic answer
was that there are only a small number of refineries that
produce the total aviation (100LL) fuel for the US
market. It may become a matter of "how much you willing
to pay" over unavailability. Can you covert you CJ to a
turbo prop? I bet so. Look at the T-34C.
Kerosene production facilities already take care of the
airlines and corporate world. It may just a matter of
putting that 600hp turbo on the front. At OSH this year
I saw a Extra with one on the front, however I don't
think he was worried about availability of 110LL.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 11/26/2007 6:49:34 P.M. Eastern
Standard Time, mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil writes:
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV
Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E"
<mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>
On the same note: I saw a television show that said that
"straight gas" was going to be very hard to find within a
year. Anyone heard any pros or cons on this issue as
well? What do we do when there is nothing BUT "gasahol"
or whatever you want to call it.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Ira Saligman Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 11:43
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Car Gas
It seems that a number of folks use a mixture of car and
avgas in their M14's and the planes run great.
I am wondering how bad ethanol really is.
In many states, including PA all the pumps now say "may
include up to 10% ethanol" (sometimes 15%)
I understand that alcohol is bad for rubber but how bad
is a 75% gas with a 10% mixture (75% car gas, 25% avgas)
If you have any experience here can you shed some light on
the following:
Which seals/Diaphragms or other parts will be potentially
affected?
What ratios do you mix the two fuels?
Is there ethanol in the gas you use?
Have you seen any negative effects from Ethanol?
Anything else you find useful.
Ira Saligman
o 610 940 0420
c 610 324 5500
f 215 243 7699
isaligman(at)Saligman.com <mailto:isaligman(at)Saligman.com>
**************************************Check out AOL's list
of 2007's hottest products.
(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aolto
p00030000000001)
sp; (And Get Some AWESOME FREE find you for -Matt Dralle, List es y --> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ======================
|
|
Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007.
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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f4ffm2(at)adelphia.net
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:42 pm Post subject: Car Gas |
|
|
Mark,
See "Piper Enforcer"
Roger____________________________________________________
On Nov 26, 2007, at 5:50 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,
MALS-14 64E wrote:
[quote]
Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>
A P-51 with a turbine. Interesting thought.
Mark Bitterlich
--
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brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:49 pm Post subject: Car Gas |
|
|
On Nov 26, 2007, at 4:21 PM, cjpilot710(at)aol.com wrote:
| Quote: | Turbines. that means kerosene.
|
Diesels. That means kerosene (Jet-A).
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:51 pm Post subject: Car Gas |
|
|
On Nov 26, 2007, at 5:50 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,
MALS-14 64E wrote:
| Quote: |
Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>
A P-51 with a turbine. Interesting thought.
|
It's already been done.
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:25 am Post subject: Car Gas |
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The kit is out there. Last time I looked the all composite kit was $180 K
without the engine and the avionics. Criused at 360 kph (Knots/hr). For
around $280, you could have your very Hot 51 Stang!
Doc
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dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:44 am Post subject: Car Gas |
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You got that right Doc!!!!
Dennis
[quote] ---
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HawkerPilot2015
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 503
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:53 am Post subject: Re: Car Gas |
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The last Enforcer is in the USAF Museum at Wright-Patterson. It is sort of like the T-34C that has been talked about. There is a lot of that airplane that is NOT a P-51...
PLUS! Who in the hell would swap that wonderful V-12 for a freaking turbine!
Doc, I think NASA maybe interested in a Yak-50 with a Turbine. We could insert objects into low earth orbit with the rate of climb!
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fish(at)aviation-tech.com
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:27 am Post subject: Car Gas |
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Group,
I have a spare J-47, think I can fit it into my Yak-52? or
any one have an F-86 that needs an engine they want to sell!
Fly Safe
John Fischer
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E"
<mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>
To: <yak-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: RE: Car Gas
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 20:50:13 -0500
[quote]
Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>
A P-51 with a turbine. Interesting thought.
Mark Bitterlich
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