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Welded Fuel Tanks Update

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ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 7:18 pm Post subject: Welded Fuel Tanks Update

Well, I've been practicing my aluminum welding skills now for about a month and I can honestly say... this is doable. Having made a bunch of successful edge welds similar to the edge welds called for in the plans with no visible pinholes. The next step will be to fabricate a small test tank and try pressurizing it.



Total cost outlay, about $300 for gas welding equipment which can also be put to good use in other welding projects including standard old steel welding. Vastly superior to stick or MIG welding.



Kudos to Tinman Tech and Fournier Industries for good instructional videos.

Ron Lendon

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Clinton Twp., MI

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 8:53 pm Post subject: Re: Welded Fuel Tanks Update

Keep the test pressures low, 2-3 psi if ya go much higher it will deform the tank.  Use bubble water in a spray bottle to find the leaks.

_________________
Ron Lendon
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
CH 601 XLB
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http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
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kmccune

Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 577
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 3:09 am Post subject: Re: Welded Fuel Tanks Update

What welder did you get? I guess it must work pretty well, but any drawbacks . Anything that you really like about it..... 



Kevin



do not archive

_________________
“Always do what you are afraid to do.”
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"Real freedom is the sustained act of being an individual." WW - 2009

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Dorothy McCune

Last edited by kmccune on Sun Jan 06, 2008 9:12 am; edited 1 time in total

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:05 am Post subject: Re: Welded Fuel Tanks Update

When I make the real thing I'll do just that. Thanks.



I'm going to make a little tiny tank first and really pump it up (standing way back of course) just out of curiosity. 



 	  Ron Lendon wrote: 	
		  Keep the test pressures low, 2-3 psi if ya go much higher it will deform the tank.  Use bubble water in a spray bottle to find the leaks.

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:14 am Post subject: Re: Welded Fuel Tanks Update

I bought the Harbor Frieght basic model acetylene torch kit for $100. I also picked up a mini-torch from Harbor Freight just for the hell of it. I'm actually using the jewelers torch. Like that better. Lighter and eaiser to use and has smaller tips. Supplies from Tin Man tech and Fournier were reasonably priced. The most expensive thing there is the special lens which you need because the flux gives off a lot of UV light.



Gas welding makes a lot cleaner weld than a MIG or stick for steel. Obviously you can't use either for aluminum, but for an inexpensive way to weld aluminum, gas welding works great!



I'll post some pixs of the welds themselves. They're not super pretty stacked dimes, but they are complete penetration welds and they're fairly smooth along the edge, no major melt points, so in essense, the welds themselves are even fairly attractive, just not stacked dimes. I'm sure there's a techinique for that I'll have to practice, but for now I'm happy with the welds. They look infinitely better than when I first tried it.



 	  kmccune wrote: 	
		  What welder did you get? I guess it must work pretty well, but any drawbacks . Anything that you really like about it..... 



Kevin

planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 10:58 am Post subject: Welded Fuel Tanks Update

Harleysville (SE) PA

  100 HP Corvair

       [quote][b]

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:35 am Post subject: Re: Welded Fuel Tanks Update

No message for some reason.



do not archive



[quote="planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co"]Harleysville (SE) PA

  100 HP Corvair

        	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 2:21 pm Post subject: Welded Fuel Tanks Update

Harleysville (SE) PA

  100 HP Corvair

        Be a better friend, newshound, and  [quote][b]

ch701builder

Joined: 07 Feb 2006
Posts: 119
Location: N38.9947,W105.1305,ALT. 9,100'

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 3:17 pm Post subject: Welded Fuel Tanks Update

I good method for a low pressure source is to use a balloon. It keeps a couple of psi on the tank without distorting, then....... you can have your fun with high pressure. I used to use our compressor for tanking dents out of motorcycle gas tanks all the time. (of course the dents we not from my driving and wipeing out)



Keith

*************************************************************************************************

--

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:15 pm Post subject: Re: Welded Fuel Tanks Update

Here's some of my aluminum welds. Just some practice coupons. I did this one tonight. I think it's starting to get tank worthy, especially being that I'm now able to casually reproduce the results over and over.



This is .032 5052 alloy with a .063 1100 alloy filler and a 00 tip on a Harbor Freight oxy-acetylene jewelers torch and about 3 psi on both oxygen and acetylene.

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Ron Lendon

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Clinton Twp., MI

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:55 pm Post subject: Re: Welded Fuel Tanks Update

Looking good Andy.  Remember to relax, breathe and watch the puddle.



Don't know if I told you but I worked with Ron Fournier for a year in the 70's.  He really knows his stuff.

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:00 am Post subject: Re: Welded Fuel Tanks Update

Thanks. It seems to be one of those things like riding a bike. Hard at first, but a lot more second nature once you start having some luck and then all of a sudden you gain about 90% of the knowledge all at once, you get in the zone. I gotta work on finesce now at master the other 90%. LOL



That's pretty cool. Didn't know you worked with him. Yeah, he and the Tin Man seem to be pretty knowledgable.



My welds are still a little rough, but I don't see any pinholes, and I'm not melting away a ton on metal now, so that good.



 	  Ron Lendon wrote: 	
		  Looking good Andy.  Remember to relax, breathe and watch the puddle.



Don't know if I told you but I worked with Ron Fournier for a year in the 70's.  He really knows his stuff.

bill_dom(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 6:06 am Post subject: Welded Fuel Tanks Update

That is a nice pretty looking seam Andy. Have you tried to separate them to see how strong they are. I may still have in my email archive a message from another builder who gas welded his tank and one of the things he reported was that after he managed to get a nice weld, the parts where weakly joined and it took him a lot more practice to figure out how to make it strong. 



Thanks for keeping us posted, I'm almost settled on riveted tank with pro-seal but I'll follow your steps if you get it to work with a reasonable amount of learning time. I will be reaching the tank build point by around summer.



William Dominguez

Zodiac 601XL Plans

Miami Florida

http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom



ashontz <ashontz(at)nbme.org> wrote:[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ashontz" 



Here's some of my aluminum [quote][b]

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:00 am Post subject: Re: Welded Fuel Tanks Update

I've cut others open and the penetration is pretty good. I'm still practicing. About ever 4 days I'll go out and weld some more and each time they get better. It's almost like I just have to digest for a few days what I learned.



[quote="bill_dom(at)yahoo.com"]That is a nice pretty looking seam Andy. Have you tried to separate them to see how strong they are. I may still have in my email archive a message from another builder who gas welded his tank and one of the things he reported was that after he managed to get a nice weld, the parts where weakly joined and it took him a lot more practice to figure out how to make it strong. 



Thanks for keeping us posted, I'm almost settled on riveted tank with pro-seal but I'll follow your steps if you get it to work with a reasonable amount of learning time. I will be reaching the tank build point by around summer.



William Dominguez

Zodiac 601XL Plans

Miami Florida

http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom



ashontz <ashontz> wrote:[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ashontz" 



Here's some of my aluminum  	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

agustafson(at)chartermi.n
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:04 pm Post subject: Welded Fuel Tanks Update

It took me 1 1/2 years to weld my tanks. That's 1 year 5 months and three 

weeks of trying and giving up and trying again and giving up again and 

learning some new trick and practicing and getting discouraged and giving up 

and coming back and trying some new idea and giving up and coming back and 

trying again and learning something new and buying more oxygen and acetylene 

(at least 4 fill-ups of the mini tanks) and buying different filler rod and 

trying a different way of applying the flux and finally feeling that I might 

be able to do it and welding up one tank and fixing the pin holes and more 

pin holes and more pin holes until I again gave up and threw the hole thing 

away and bought more metal and tried again. Whew!!! I'm sure it would have 

been cheaper to buy ready to install tanks but then I would not have been 

able to write this message and encourage those of you who occasionally have 

trouble with a project and telling you to never, never, never, give up. I 

did it and so can you if you want to!



I also found that there is a great difference between welding a few small 

pieces together and welding a large sheet and you have to relearn when 

making that transition.



Aaron Gustafson  601HD  45 hours   NO LEAKS IN THE FUEL TANKS

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:46 pm Post subject: Re: Welded Fuel Tanks Update

Thanks for your input.



I've already tried larger pieces, you just need to turn to flame up higher. I'm doing short pieces so I can practice over and over again without going through a whole lot of scrap. Just using the short pieces I can see a world of difference in technique and results.



As far as large pieces, did you try preheating them or even keeping them warm with say a little bunson burner or a hot plate while welding? I'd imagine something like that helps immense with keeping the heat in the part instead of having all of it wick away to the neither regions of the part while working on it.



Fact is, I successfully and repeatedly welded some small parts, there's always way to scale it up.



The reason you were getting pin holes was probably because on the large part the heat dissapation kept you from making a good weld and while getting frustrated with it waiting for the heat you prematurely welded and oxydixed the joints real good which makes for a very porous weld if you even get that far.



When I actually do the tank I'll most likely go with a bit larger torch tip and bunson burners under the tank skin and shielded from the oxy-acetelene hoses.



This isn't rocket science. It's just basic science and common sense.



 	  agustafson(at)chartermi.n wrote: 	
		  It took me 1 1/2 years to weld my tanks. That's 1 year 5 months and three 

weeks of trying and giving up and trying again and giving up again and 

learning some new trick and practicing and getting discouraged and giving up 

and coming back and trying some new idea and giving up and coming back and 

trying again and learning something new and buying more oxygen and acetylene 

(at least 4 fill-ups of the mini tanks) and buying different filler rod and 

trying a different way of applying the flux and finally feeling that I might 

be able to do it and welding up one tank and fixing the pin holes and more 

pin holes and more pin holes until I again gave up and threw the hole thing 

away and bought more metal and tried again. Whew!!! I'm sure it would have 

been cheaper to buy ready to install tanks but then I would not have been 

able to write this message and encourage those of you who occasionally have 

trouble with a project and telling you to never, never, never, give up. I 

did it and so can you if you want to!



I also found that there is a great difference between welding a few small 

pieces together and welding a large sheet and you have to relearn when 

making that transition.



Aaron Gustafson  601HD  45 hours   NO LEAKS IN THE FUEL TANKS

Ron Lendon

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Clinton Twp., MI

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 9:23 pm Post subject: Re: Welded Fuel Tanks Update

Tack it all up first.  Work on joining your welds once you have good ones.



Get a Stainless wire brush only for this purpose.



The method I used with the tig is: 



Wire brush area, tack weld. 



Tacks were about 12" then 6" apart.



To join the welds:



Wire brush area, weld from tack to tack.



You of course will also have flux application.  I was able to run a 6" bead fairly consistently on the 601 tanks.



To keep the oxidization down with the torch try setting the acetylene pressure/flow and leave the oxygen off but have the oxygen valve on the torch wide open, gradually bring the pressure up on the oxygen tank to set the flame.  Using that method the mix at the tip of the torch gathers oxygen from the atmosphere minimizing the oxidation of the weld area.



On my tanks the oxygen pressure is just off the pin using the above settings.

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 5:20 am Post subject: Re: Welded Fuel Tanks Update

Good tip on the oxy setting. With my little jewelers torch I'm using the Tin Mna's advance, which is pretty much the same, don't even look at the gauges, close the regulators, open both torch valves, crank in the acet regulator til you get some flow, light it, adjust to big fuzzy no soot flame, then start cranking in the oxygen til you get a neutral flame. With low line pressures you can't even go by regulator, only what seems to work for the torch.



Same here, the oxygen on the reg barely registers when it's set right.



I'm going to go out there right now and try welding a thick piece to a thin piece to simulate a fitting on the tank.



 	  Ron Lendon wrote: 	
		  Tack it all up first.  Work on joining your welds once you have good ones.



Get a Stainless wire brush only for this purpose.



The method I used with the tig is: 



Wire brush area, tack weld. 



Tacks were about 12" then 6" apart.



To join the welds:



Wire brush area, weld from tack to tack.



You of course will also have flux application.  I was able to run a 6" bead fairly consistently on the 601 tanks.



To keep the oxidization down with the torch try setting the acetylene pressure/flow and leave the oxygen off but have the oxygen valve on the torch wide open, gradually bring the pressure up on the oxygen tank to set the flame.  Using that method the mix at the tip of the torch gathers oxygen from the atmosphere minimizing the oxidation of the weld area.



On my tanks the oxygen pressure is just off the pin using the above settings.

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 7:21 am Post subject: Re: Welded Fuel Tanks Update

Tried a tank fitting. Fitting was about 3/4 inch diameter flange (now less) with a 1/2 shank, made it up on the lathe real quick and drilled a half inch hole in the .032 sheet. Next time I'll put even more flux on it and flux the back side. Actually not to bad though for a first try. Then I drilled the hole.



Interesting, on the thicker stuff it wasn't so obvious it was already molten. As soon as I poked at it with the rod is flowed. I mainly heated the fitting, not the skin. Maybe 25% of the flame or less was on the skin. More like broiled the skin and heated the fitting flange.

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