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My Nightmare

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dowens(at)aerialviewpoint
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:03 am Post subject: My Nightmare

It's every passenger's worst nightmare: You're cruising along at 30,000 feet

when the lights suddenly go out and the engines quit. The cockpit crew has

been struck down by food poisoning. A terrified stewardess (sorry, "flight

attendant") yells out: "Is there a pilot on board?" OK, that's a bad movie

plot. But what happened in London on Thursday is actually scarier, and

would've been a huge disaster, if not for the hero pilot.



What happened was, a British Airways plane on final approach into London's

Heathrow Airport lost both engines and all power to the on-board electronics

systems. Apparently everything went south except an altimeter and air-speed

indicator running on battery backup.



Yet the pilot, Capt. Peter Burkill, was able to glide the plane in for a

landing. Yes, the landing gear collapsed and 13 passengers suffered minor

injuries. But it could have been far, far worse. The landing is being hailed

as a miracle, because the pilot was able to react in basically no time at

all and bring the heavy aircraft down.)



My point in blogging about this is to raise a couple of points I haven't

seen in any of the news coverage.



First off, I take issue with the characterization of the safe landing as a

"miracle." That's a cheap and lazy description. It wasn't a miracle; it was

the result of a well-trained pilot doing what a consummate professional

does. Anyway, my purpose isn't so much to denigrate the people tossing about

"miracle." It's rather to point out that most folks don't really know what

pilots are sometimes called on to do.



There's an added level of nuance on top of that. Namely, even when the

cockpit crew performs spectacularly, things don't always work out. There's

the case of the July, 2000, crash of a Concord, shortly after takeoff in

Paris. The pilot there was a hero, too, because he was able to divert the

plane away from a populated area before it went down in flames, killing all

113 aboard.



Fly-By-Wire Hazards



My second -- and more important -- point, though, is to raise the issue of

how modern planes like the Boeing 777, by their very design, are more of a

problem in crisis situations than older planes.



That's because the 777 is a so-called "fly-by-wire" aircraft. This means it

essentially uses computers to control the flight surfaces (wings, rudder,

etc.). Commands from the flight deck are transmitted to the physical plane

through wires and computers and finally to the hydraulic actuators which

operate the control surfaces. This is in contrast with older, nonelectronic

designs, where you had cables directly connected to the control surfaces.

(More correctly, on large aircraft, these controls were boosted by hydraulic

actuators, which pretty much means they used transmission fluid running

through piping, analogous to your car's brake lines.)



Quite frankly, I wasn't aware that the 777 had a back-up mode where pilots

could (directly?) operate the control surfaces in the event of a total power

loss. (I couldn't find an answer to this question in my quick research this

morning.) So, either the 777 does indeed have manual backup, or it didn't

completely lose all power. Possibly all the control surfaces are hooked to

some kind of UPS (uninterruptible power supply), which keeps them running on

battery back-up in the event of an outage. (In that case, it's lucky the

power loss happened during landing. If it occurred mid-flight, there'd be a

question of how much time the pilot had on the backup supply before

everything conked out.)



Anyway, my main point is that many people have been concerned for a long

time about the inherent weakness in fly-by-wire. (The benefits are a

lighter, more sophisticated plane that's cheaper to operate.) These are many

of the same folks who were worried when twin-engine planes were certified

for over-water operation. (In the old days, you had to have four engines to

fly across the Atlantic, to provide a margin of safety.)



Consider British Airways Flight 38 to be both a close call and a warning.

Just because fly-by-wire hasn't bitten anyone in the butt so far doesn't

mean it won't one day.



Information Week,Alexander Wolfe

barry.collman(at)air-brit
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:28 am Post subject: My Nightmare

Hi David,

  

 I haven't paid much attention to the BA B777  accident at LHR last week, due to all the rubbish and speculation being bandied  around by so-called "experts" in the media. ("ex" = "out of", spurts [sounds  like] = big drip).

 I prefer to wait until the accident report is out  in the public domain.

  

 However, I understand that the co-pilot was  handling the aircraft at the time.

 His name?

 Coward, John Coward.

  

 Coward, no. Hero, yes.

  

 Best Regards,

 Barry

  

 ---

dowens(at)aerialviewpoint
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:04 am Post subject: My Nightmare

Here Here.... I thought this story was probably  closer than most have heard...

  

  

  

  

 David Owens

Aerial  Viewpoint

N14AV

AC-500A-Colemill

   [quote][b]

brcamp(at)windows.microso
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:32 am Post subject: My Nightmare

So, regarding fly by wire.  

   

The controllers are triple redundant, and if one of them has a hardware problem the others shut it down automatically and set off an alarm.  

The pilot is only as far removed from the process as he was in the days of hydraulic controls (which is pretty much everything from the Lockheed Electra onwards.) People haven’t had a viable “manual” option since then. Consider what happened at Sioux City.  

   

The controllers are battery backed up, and the batteries are designed to last much longer than the fuel supply.  

   

I believe the actuators these days are pure electric, without the added complication of hydraulics.   

   

The area of vulnerability is software, and after the A310 pancaked itself on the end of the runway at the paris airshow, then did it again with passengers on board a year later, people are *very* aware of the need to test in every possible flight regime (including reversed command, which is where the French screwed up, ie they didn’t test the flight control software at high Alpha.  They just programmed it not to allow high alpha. Poor choice.).  

   

Personally, I consider it a step forward. But any product of the hand of man is likely to be able to screw up somehow.  

   

    Bruce   

    N4186B AC52  

       

From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman

 Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 8:27 AM

 To: commander-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: My Nightmare  

  

  

     

Hi David,  

    

   

    

I haven't paid much attention to the BA B777 accident at LHR last week, due to all the rubbish and speculation being bandied around by so-called "experts" in the media. ("ex" = "out of", spurts [sounds like] = big drip).  

    

I prefer to wait until the accident report is out in the public domain.  

    

   

    

However, I understand that the co-pilot was handling the aircraft at the time.  

    

His name?  

    

Coward, John Coward.  

    

   

    

Coward, no. Hero, yes.  

    

   

    

Best Regards,  

    

Barry  

    

   

    

----- Original Message -----     

From: "David Owens" <dowens(at)aerialviewpoint.com (dowens(at)aerialviewpoint.com)>  

    

To: <commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)>  

    

Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 3:59 PM  

    

Subject: Re: Re: My Nightmare  

  

    

   

  

| --> Commander-List message posted by: "David Owens" <dowens(at)aerialviewpoint.com (dowens(at)aerialviewpoint.com)>

 | 

 | It's every passenger's worst nightmare: You're cruising along at 30,000 feet

 | when the lights suddenly go out and the engines quit. The cockpit crew has

 | been struck down by food poisoning. A terrified stewardess (sorry, "flight

 | attendant") yells out: "Is there a pilot on board?" OK, that's a bad movie

 | plot. But what happened in London on Thursday is actually scarier, and

 | would've been a huge disaster, if not for the hero pilot.

 | 

 | What happened was, a British Airways plane on final approach into London's

 | Heathrow Airport lost both engines and all power to the on-board electronics

 | systems. Apparently everything went south except an altimeter and air-speed

 | indicator running on battery backup.

 | 

 | Yet the pilot, Capt. Peter Burkill, was able to glide the plane in for a

 | landing. Yes, the landing gear collapsed and 13 passengers suffered minor

 | injuries. But it could have been far, far worse. The landing is being hailed

 | as a miracle, because the pilot was able to react in basically no time at

 | all and bring the heavy aircraft down.)

 | 

 | My point in blogging about this is to raise a couple of points I haven't

 | seen in any of the news coverage.

 | 

 | First off, I take issue with the characterization of the safe landing as a

 | "miracle." That's a cheap and lazy description. It wasn't a miracle; it was

 | the result of a well-trained pilot doing what a consummate professional

 | does. Anyway, my purpose isn't so much to denigrate the people tossing about

 | "miracle." It's rather to point out that most folks don't really know what

 | pilots are sometimes called on to do.

 | 

 | There's an added level of nuance on top of that. Namely, even when the

 | cockpit crew performs spectacularly, things don't always work out. There's

 | the case of the July, 2000, crash of a Concord, shortly after takeoff in

 | Paris. The pilot there was a hero, too, because he was able to divert the

 | plane away from a populated area before it went down in flames, killing all

 | 113 aboard.

 | 

 | Fly-By-Wire Hazards

 | 

 | My second -- and more important -- point, though, is to raise the issue of

 | how modern planes like the Boeing 777, by their very design, are more of a

 | problem in crisis situations than older planes.

 | 

 | That's because the 777 is a so-called "fly-by-wire" aircraft. This means it

 | essentially uses computers to control the flight surfaces (wings, rudder,

 | etc.). Commands from the flight deck are transmitted to the physical plane

 | through wires and computers and finally to the hydraulic actuators which

 | operate the control surfaces. This is in contrast with older, nonelectronic

 | designs, where you had cables directly connected to the control surfaces.

 | (More correctly, on large aircraft, these controls were boosted by hydraulic

 | actuators, which pretty much means they used transmission fluid running

 | through piping, analogous to your car's brake lines.)

 | 

 | Quite frankly, I wasn't aware that the 777 had a back-up mode where pilots

 | could (directly?) operate the control surfaces in the event of a total power

 | loss. (I couldn't find an answer to this question in my quick research this

 | morning.) So, either the 777 does indeed have manual backup, or it didn't

 | completely lose all power. Possibly all the control surfaces are hooked to

 | some kind of UPS (uninterruptible power supply), which keeps them running on

 | battery back-up in the event of an outage. (In that case, it's lucky the

 | power loss happened during landing. If it occurred mid-flight, there'd be a

 | question of how much time the pilot had on the backup supply before

 | everything conked out.)

 | 

 | Anyway, my main point is that many people have been concerned for a long

 | time about the inherent weakness in fly-by-wire. (The benefits are a

 | lighter, more sophisticated plane that's cheaper to operate.) These are many

 | of the same folks who were worried when twin-engine planes were certified

 | for over-water operation. (In the old days, you had to have four engines to

 | fly across the Atlantic, to provide a margin of safety.)

 | 

 | Consider British Airways Flight 38 to be both a close call and a warning.

 | Just because fly-by-wire hasn't bitten anyone in the butt so far doesn't

 | mean it won't one day.

 | 

 | Information Week,Alexander Wolfe

 | 

 | 

 | ===========

 | Commander-List browse

 | Archive and much href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List

 | ===========

 | bsp;   via the Web href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

 | ===========

 | bsp; - generous support!

 | bsp;                  href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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 | 

 | 

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tylor.hall(at)sbcglobal.n
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:45 am Post subject: My Nightmare

Check out www.aero-news.net for the preliminary report.It is on yesterdays news.



Tylor Hall

On Jan 22, 2008, at 9:54 AM, David Owens wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Here Here.... I thought this story was probably closer than most have heard...

 

 

 

 

David Owens

Aerial Viewpoint

N14AV

AC-500A-Colemill

 	  Quote: 	
		  http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	


	


 [quote][b]

steve2(at)sover.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:14 am Post subject: My Nightmare

I went to the website below to read the 777 story,  and there was another headline regarding a fatal accident and a gyro  problem. It says it was a Central 500B that went in last(?) Wednesday. So  sorry guys. I hope I have that wrong........

  

 Steve

 [quote]   ---

dowens(at)aerialviewpoint
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:26 am Post subject: My Nightmare

Hey, Steve...



 You think Al and Jesse are going up to Chicago to chastise the Mayor and

Assistant Mayor for writing love letters to each other like he went after

the DA of Harris County in Houston? Have you even heard about this yet???





David Owens

Aerial Viewpoint

N14AV

AC-500A-Colemill

steve2(at)sover.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:37 am Post subject: My Nightmare

David, things have been so quiet and neighborly here on the list. I 

shouldn't be screwing it up with a reply. And my heart's not into 

impersonating a lefty on this one.



I actually read the cartoon that got everyone in a lather about those two 

dissapearing (poof). I thought it was funny, and is almost exactly like what 

Morgan Freeman said about just everyone quit talking about race and treat 

everyone the same. There's nobody's business those two won't butt into, and 

in the end doing way more harm than good. (I'm still pissed off about Don 

Imus getting canned.Cowards!)



I am enjoying your primary though...... You're a lefty..... No, you're a 

lefty...... Well you're a bigger one! Nyah, nyah, nyah....



SEE everybody! David started it! He's a trouble maker....



Steve

---

dowens(at)aerialviewpoint
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:29 pm Post subject: My Nightmare

OK, Steve...

  I was wrong... it was Detroit... NOT Chicago. DUH!!! What the hay

anyway... I did enjoy the last round of l vs r though... (spy vs SPY)

hehehe.

 Here's the article if anyone is interested. I was just commenting to see

what, if anything those two would do about this one....  here goes.



DETROIT, MI -- Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick bristled in the witness chair last

year when asked whether he had an affair with a top aide. No, the mayor

confidently told jurors, the two were never romantically involved.



But a trove of 14,000 text messages that emerged this week tell a different

story: The mayor and his chief of staff carried on a flirty, sometimes

sexually explicit dialogue about where to meet and how to conceal their

numerous trysts.



Now the mayor's indiscretion has landed him in a Clinton-style scandal that

could cost him his job and his law license and even bring perjury charges.



"I think the mayor needs to take responsibility for the situation," City

Councilwoman Sheila Cockrel said Thursday. In politics, she said, "you

operate in a fishbowl."



The Detroit Free Press did not explain exactly how it obtained the messages,

which were sent or received in 2002-03 from Chief of Staff Christine

Beatty's city-issued pager. The newspaper said it cross-referenced the

messages with the mayor's private calendar and credit card records to verify

events in some of the notes.



The mayor's denial came last summer during testimony in a lawsuit filed by

two police officers who alleged they were fired for investigating claims

from two former bodyguards that the mayor used his security unit to cover up

extramarital affairs.



Mike Stefani, a lawyer for the officers, asked Beatty if she and Kilpatrick

were "either romantically or intimately involved" during the period covered

by the case.



"No," she replied, rolling her eyes.



While still on the witness stand, the mayor later went on the offensive

about the allegations, defending his reputation and that of Beatty.



"I think it was pretty demoralizing to her -- you have to know her -- but

it's demoralizing to me as well," he testified. "My mother is a

congresswoman. There have always been strong women around me. My aunt is a

state legislator. I think it's absurd to assert that every woman that works

with a man is a whore."



Late Wednesday, Kilpatrick issued a statement about the messages that was

more subdued.



"These five- and six-year-old text messages reflect a very difficult period

in my personal life," he said. "It is profoundly embarrassing to have these

extremely private messages now displayed in such a public manner."



On Thursday, mayoral spokesman James Canning said in a statement that

Kilpatrick and his family were returning from Florida on Thursday evening

"and plan to continue their private time for the next several days."



Last summer's lawsuit ended with the jury awarding $6.5 million to the two

officers. The mayor seemed flabbergasted at the verdict and denied the

allegations against him.



"I'm absolutely blown away at this decision. I know Detroiters are, too," he

said at the time.



The text messages published by the Free Press revealed a romantic discourse

that at times became sexually explicit.



"I'm madly in love with you," Kilpatrick wrote on Oct. 3, 2002.



"I hope you feel that way for a long time," Beatty replied. "In case you

haven't noticed, I am madly in love with you, too!"



On Oct. 16, 2002, Kilpatrick wrote Beatty: "I've been dreaming all day about

having you all to myself for 3 days. Relaxing, laughing, talking, sleeping

and making love."



Kilpatrick is married with three children. Beatty was married at the time

and has two children.



The two, both 37, have been friends since they attended the same Detroit

high school. Kilpatrick also appointed Beatty as his chief of staff when he

became state House minority leader in 1999. She was his campaign manager

during his campaigns for state House and the mayor's office.



The content of the text messages "astounded" Judge Michael Callahan, who

presided over the lawsuit. He said the messages would have been admitted

into evidence, if they had been presented during the trial.



"I've done other whistle-blower cases, but I don't think I've ever had a

trial as tense as the one involving the mayor and the city," he said.



Callahan said it would be up to local prosecutors to decide whether to seek

perjury charges against the mayor. The county prosecutor's office declined

to comment on Thursday, but scheduled a news conference for Friday morning.



A conviction of lying under oath is punishable by up to 15 years'

imprisonment.



The Associated Press left messages seeking comment from Detroit lawyer Sam

McCargo, who represented Kilpatrick in the trial.



Perjury cases are fairly simple to prove, according to Texas lawyer and

former U.S. prosecutor Matthew Orwig.



"The matter here would just be the reliability of the text messages as

evidence, proof of who wrote them and proof of making a false statement,"

Orwig said.



Kilpatrick, who was just 31 when first elected, has tried to reshape his

image into that of a mature leader overseeing one of the nation's largest

cities. He even shed a trademark diamond stud earring.



The mayor has received much of the credit for Detroit's surge in downtown

development. But he had to fight for re-election in 2005 after his campaign

was dogged by questions about his spending, including the use of city credit

cards for expensive out-of-town travel and the lease of a luxury sport

utility vehicle for his family.



The disclosures about his personal life could give pause to anyone

considering investing in the city.



"Investors want to feel a sense of security about the future," said Mackinac

Center economist Michael LaFaive. "For companies on the margins, do they

decide in favor of Detroit or against it? This news throws a new and complex

set of variables into the equation."

WINGFLYER1(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:20 pm Post subject: My Nightmare

Guys, 50% of the time you can get a guy with money, 50% of the time you can  get him with a woman and you can get him 100% of the time useing both!!  Gil



Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. 

  [quote][b]

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