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chris Sinfield

Joined: 28 Nov 2006
Posts: 270
Location: Sydney Australia

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:44 am Post subject: XL canopy open

Guys and Girls,

Just writing my emergency procedures for my XL flight manual. This is to those that are up and flying.. 



1. If the canopy comes unlatched on one side or open on both sides, can you slow down and close it again? I guess it would rise up a bit.



2. If the canopy breaks or somehow comes off, will the aircraft still fly with all the drag from the fwd turtle deck. I know there are some photos showing open cockpit / sports models but they appear to have a closed turtle deck.



I know that someone in a HDS  once wrote that he lost his canopy and still did a slower circuit and landed again without much problems, I wonder if thats the same as the XL?? 

Chris..

Building and writing 

XL 6337

amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:02 am Post subject: XL canopy open

the procedure i tested are as follows:

1- in event of canopy unlatch or falure, slow the plane down to below 80 mph. Fly the plane

2- in event of cabin opening, slow the plane at altitude enough to relatch, when relatched resume normal flight, if not relatchable,  Land.

3- in event of canopy complete failure, slow to below 80 mph, fly the plane,  decend and land.  Keep power at landing as plane will slow down much quicker due to drag.

In all possible events, don't panic, fly the plane.

Juan



--

jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:11 am Post subject: XL canopy open

Chris,

 

 If I'm not mistaken the canopy that departed in flight was one of the early side opening types.  It would open from either side, so if both latches failed, the canopy could depart.  The XL canopy is securely fastened to the airframe, even when open.  I just can't imagine one simply coming off. Obviously, it could be destroyed by a large bird strike or a mid-air collision, in which case you wouldn't be worrying about whether the turtle deck was open or closed.

 

 Jay in Dallas

 

   

 

   

 

 --

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:33 am Post subject: XL canopy open

On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 06:44:19AM -0700, chris Sinfield wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   1. If the canopy comes unlatched on one side or open on both sides, can

 you slow down and close it again? I guess it would rise up a bit.


	


The AMD POH says to slow to 60 knots, fly the airplane, make a normal

landing, and close it on the ground. It specifically says not to attempt to

close it in flight.



 	  Quote: 	
		   2. If the canopy breaks or somehow comes off, will the aircraft still fly

 with all the drag from the fwd turtle deck. I know there are some photos

 showing open cockpit / sports models but they appear to have a closed

 turtle deck.


	


Again, I'd expect to fly it at slower speed, and probably have to use more

power than normal, but it should fly well enough to make a normal landing.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (got it!)

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

jonathan(at)entry.co.za
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:50 am Post subject: XL canopy open

Chris wrote....



1. If the canopy comes unlatched on one side or open on both 

sides, can you slow down and close it again? I guess it would 

rise up a bit.

I am afraid you will NOT be able to re-latch the canopy, I have tried.



The canopy has a 'double' latch, and I once took off with the one side having

been latched on the firt latch one, well with all my considerable weight on the

window sill, I could NOT latch the canopy further. I could barely move the

canopy down, that even when I slowed to 70mph



I only realised the latch was on only the first click, was when the wind started

tugging at my left hand shirt sleeve. I have dual sticks, so my left arm rests

on the sill.



Jonathan

601XL 140+ hrs

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:35 am Post subject: XL canopy open

This is what I have written in the past:



Back in December Clive Richards sent out the attached report from the UK PFA

magazine of an anonymous pilot testing his (pre-XL?) 601 with an open

canopy. He attached a safety cord and intentionally unlatched his canopy.

Quoting:



"I commenced the test at 3500 ft and 80 knots cruise. I secured the safety

cord to the cleat at my elbow with about 1 ft of slack and released the

catch. The canopy rapidly popped up about 1 ft at the trailing edge as

expected. I then slowly paid out the cord from the cleat and allowed the

canopy to rise to a steady state. The canopy adopted a position where the

base of the canopy settled to an angle of about 35 degrees to the airflow.

Full lateral and pitch control could be maintained but forward speed dropped

to about 60 knots and despite increase to full throttle descent was about

300 ft/min. An unexpected problem now presented itself. I was descending

quickly and all the strength I could muster with my right arm was only just

sufficient to pull the cord down and cleat it progressively. Possibly the

slot effect at the front of the canopy open at the front increased the lift

(and additionally the gas struts require a cord load of 15 lbs static). I

finally, exhausted, got it down to about 6 inches and returned to."



Craig again. I had a similar experience in an Evektor SportStar. This LSA

resembles the 601XL: low wing, front-hinged bubble canopy. One difference is

that the canopy is split behind the seats. There is a cross-bar behind the

seats:



www.evektoramerica.com/SportStarPlus.htm



I was flying left-seat with my instructor. The canopy popped while we were

in the pattern. I would estimate that the gap was well over a foot. While

the instructor flew I tried to close the canopy. I wrapped my arm around the

cross-bar and used all my weight and strength and could not close the

canopy. At best I think I got the gap down to 6-8 inches. Evektor redesigned

the latch the next year.



I believe the upward force was generated by lift and not wind under the

canopy as it did not decrease as I closed the gap.



-- Craig

canopyopening.pdf

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amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:48 am Post subject: XL canopy open

Jonathon and Friends:



I agree it is difficult to relatch but not impossible,since I relatched mine at 8,000 ft. hence my response earlier was based on what I did during that incident.  Basically ,stall the airplane and at apex, seal the latch.  I think where Jonathon's situation came in is everyone job sealing tightness is differnt on each plane , which I found in trying 3 different planes.  

Jonathon is correct though in the safest option is.. just land then fix.   Since I was high up, 8,000 ft,  I cut the flow of air over the canopy to the point where it relatched, basically yanking back on the yoke to stall. Not the safest, but I was comfortable with myself.  

If both sides release,  all bets are off.



safety first, just land.



Juan



--

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:51 pm Post subject: XL canopy open

I have had one side come unlatched in flight a few times, always just  

after takeoff. I believe that all cases were caused by my failure to  

fully latch the canopy before takeoff. In the first instance, I was  

able to re-latch it after climbing to a safe, throttling back to idle  

and slowing down to near stall speed. Later, I installed some foam  

weather strip under the canopy rail. Unfortunately, this foam got  

pretty stiff in cold weather and made it difficult to close the canopy  

fully, which led to a couple more instances. With the weather strip in  

place, I found it impossible to re-latch the canopy in flight and had  

to land to do it. I have since removed the foam and am trying out a  

different method of sealing the gap.



I have never had both sides come unlatched in flight and don't think  

it's very likely, The design of the canopy pretty much assures that at  

least one side will fully latch, so both sides are not likely to come  

unlatched unless someone turns the release handle either accidently or  

intentionally.



On Jul 16, 2008, at 9:44 AM, chris Sinfield wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 >



 Guys and Girls,

 Just writing my emergency procedures for my XL flight manual. This  

 is to those that are up and flying..



 1. If the canopy comes unlatched on one side or open on both sides,  

 can you slow down and close it again? I guess it would rise up a bit.



 2. If the canopy breaks or somehow comes off, will the aircraft  

 still fly with all the drag from the fwd turtle deck. I know there  

 are some photos showing open cockpit / sports models but they appear  

 to have a closed turtle deck.



 I know that someone in a HDS  once wrote that he lost his canopy and  

 still did a slower circuit and landed again without much problems, I  

 wonder if thats the same as the XL??

 Chris..

 Building and writing

 XL 6337


	


-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

japhillipsga(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:36 am Post subject: XL canopy open

I had the right side unlatch on take off. It probably was not latched properly to begin with. I had installed metal handles just forward on the latch mechanisms on each side so I could guide the arms into the lugs and also to pull down. I have dual sticks so I continued the climb with my left hand on the controls. I have very strong hands and arms but I must admit I could not relatch the right side. I could get it down nearly latched, but not the last little bit. At TOC I flew with my knees, held the canopy down with my right hand and routed the right side seat belt through the handle and sinched it down snug. I went on and completed my flight test program. I too was surprised I could not relatch the side. Best regards, Bill of Georgia 

 

 --

A.F.Rupp(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:13 am Post subject: XL canopy open

A.F.Rupp(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:48 pm Post subject: XL canopy open

A.F.Rupp(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:14 pm Post subject: XL canopy open

A while back, I believe it was Jay Maynard, posted some pictures of the new canopy for 601's and that had what looked to be a very good latching mechanism with the lock handle being on the seat back between the two seats and torque tubes out to the sides. It also appeared to be a pull down latch. Be interesting to see it when it comes out. 

It looks like a good retrofit. Maybe Jay could elaborate.

Al Rupp

601XL 6-5765 done less engine

 	  Quote: 	
		  From A.F.RUPP(at)ATT.NET

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 5:24 am Post subject: Re: XL canopy open

I got to see Jay plane when he visited KELD. To say the latching system is different is an understatement. I liked it and it would have several fewer failure modes. I could see the inside of the mechanism but I did like the outcome.



As far as retro fitting the system, I'd really like to see plans available for it.



 	  A.F.Rupp(at)att.net wrote: 	
		  A while back, I believe it was Jay Maynard, posted some pictures of the new canopy for 601's and that had what looked to be a very good latching mechanism with the lock handle being on the seat back between the two seats and torque tubes out to the sides. It also appeared to be a pull down latch. Be interesting to see it when it comes out. 

It looks like a good retrofit. Maybe Jay could elaborate.

Al Rupp

601XL 6-5765 done less engine

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 1:53 pm Post subject: XL canopy open

On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 06:24:54AM -0700, Gig Giacona wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   A.F.Rupp(at)att.net wrote:

 > A while back, I believe it was Jay Maynard, posted some pictures of the

 > new canopy for 601's and that had what looked to be a very good latching

 > mechanism with the lock handle being on the seat back between the two

 > seats and torque tubes out to the sides. It also appeared to be a pull

 > down latch. Be interesting to see it when it comes out.

 > It looks like a good retrofit. Maybe Jay could elaborate.

 I got to see Jay plane when he visited KELD. To say the latching system is

 different is an understatement. I liked it and it would have several fewer

 failure modes. I could see the inside of the mechanism but I did like the

 outcome.

What Gig didn't mention, but a quick look at my airplane will tell you, is

that mine has the old-style canopy but the new-style canopy latch. I like it

a heck of a lot: as Gig says, it has a lot fewer failure modes.

The latch consists of a hook sticking up through the top cabin side

longeron that engages a bolt installed such that the head sticks out a ways

from the side of the canopy bow. There's one hook on each side, and they're

attached to a rod that runs across the top of the seat back. The outside

canopy latch handle is attached to the left end of the rod; the inside latch

handle is attached to the center of the rod and sticks out between the

seats.

It's easy to close securely. What I do is lower the canopy so the bolt necks

are sitting on top of the hook (on my airplane, this usually takes a little

of pushing to one side), pulling the handle up just enough to allow the

canopy to lower to where the hooks can engage the bolts, then pushing the

handle back down fully to engage. Because of the open design, it's easy to

verify that the hooks are fully and properly engaged, either by sight or

feel.

I think it's a major improvement over the previous system, which has just a

hint of overengineering about it.

 	  Quote: 	
		   As far as retro fitting the system, I'd really like to see plans available

 for it.

It should be possible, but I don't know how much rework would be needed on

the canopy frame. The cabin side should be dead simple. Next time I'm out at

the airport with not much to do, I'll try to get pictures, especially of the

rod mounting.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (got it!)

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

chris Sinfield

Joined: 28 Nov 2006
Posts: 270
Location: Sydney Australia

Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:16 pm Post subject: Re: XL canopy open

Thanks Jay for the update.



Well yes I spoke to the Factory 2 days ago and asked about the new canopy latching system and there should be Mod kits available after next month. 

I suggested to them that they make the plans available for free as a good will gesture as the canopy locking system appears to have been  troublesome since concept.



People can still buy the parts from Zenith if they want to.. bit of give and take..

We will see what happens.. if enough people suggest that to them at the BBQ or air show it may just happen.

Chris.. 

just building the canopy now..

amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:51 am Post subject: XL canopy open

Chris,

Its a nice idea to recommend that they offer the new latch, however some of us builders have had no issues with the existing latch system, and it is contrary to your statement that the latch has been troublesome since concept.  I think if it is built and operated correctly, it does the jopb well.  If it is an item that I forgot to check before take off, or did a hurried job in building the plane,  I have no one to blame but myself.

The new system gives options to those that want the option.



Juan



--

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 2:14 pm Post subject: XL canopy open

On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 04:50:29PM -0500, Jay Maynard wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   What Gig didn't mention, but a quick look at my airplane will tell you, is

 that mine has the old-style canopy but the new-style canopy latch. I like it

 a heck of a lot: as Gig says, it has a lot fewer failure modes.


	


For the curious, I just posted pictures to

http://www.conmicro.com/amd-v2-latch/ .

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (got it!)

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 2:25 pm Post subject: XL canopy open

What's all that hardware made of? It must be a whole lot heavier than  

the old latching system.

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 04:50:29PM -0500, Jay Maynard wrote:

> What Gig didn't mention, but a quick look at my airplane will tell  

> you, is

> that mine has the old-style canopy but the new-style canopy latch.  

> I like it

> a heck of a lot: as Gig says, it has a lot fewer failure modes.



 For the curious, I just posted pictures to

 http://www.conmicro.com/amd-v2-latch/ .




	




-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 2:56 pm Post subject: XL canopy open

On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 06:22:26PM -0400, Bryan Martin wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   What's all that hardware made of? It must be a whole lot heavier than  

 the old latching system.


	


Good question, and I'm not the right guy to ask. My guess would be steel; it

feels heavier than aluminum, and you'd want steel at least on the hook and

bolt for wear resistance.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (got it!)

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

Ron Lendon

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Clinton Twp., MI

Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 3:13 pm Post subject: Re: XL canopy open

Thanks for the pictures Jay.



Use a magnet to determine what is steel.  High grade stainless won't hold a magnet and neither will aluminum.

_________________
Ron Lendon
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
CH 601 XLB
N601LT - Flying
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Corvair Engine Prints:
https://sites.google.com/site/corvairenginedata/

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