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Cleaning up a Mark-III

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Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:06 pm Post subject: Cleaning up a Mark-III

Richard Pike wrote:  << The MKIII is coming into the garage tomorrow,

some more mods to the fuselage area, try to improve the airflow around

the fuselage upper rear, ... see if cleaning up that little flat area

about 10" ahead of the prop arc will do anything. >>



Kolb Friends -



I was thinking of trying to make improvements in this area as well.



I, too, built my Mark-III with the upper half of the rear fuselage pod

open.  I believe this contributes to a large chunk of the overall drag

on my plane.



Earlier Mark-IIIs (like Hauck's) had fabric all the way up to the bottom

of the wing, like the Firestar.  This configuration seems like it would

be less draggy, as the airflow coming around the fuselage sides would

follow a more streamlined and uniform path toward the prop.  On my

Mark-III, the airflow spills around the aft edge of my doors, separates,

and (I'm sure) crates turbulent eddy currents (which equals gobs of

drag) in that whole area aft of the cabin.  This was one of the design

improvement goals that New Kolb set out to achieve with the Xtra, I've

been told.



Would it help reduce drag by simply adding a flat panel to each upper

side of the fuselage cage, to keep the airflow moving?  I'm thinking of

using 1/16" Lexan, attached using Adel clamps to the cage tubes in that

area.



Somebody on this List once said that the biggest ways to increase our

Kolbs' performance is to concentrate efforts on ways of reducing drag.

This fuselage panel thing seems to fall in that category.  Opinions?

Thanks -



Dennis Kirby

912ul, Powerfin-72, in

Cedar Crest, NM

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John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:46 pm Post subject: Cleaning up a Mark-III

> Earlier Mark-IIIs (like Hauck's) had fabric all the way up to the bottom

 	  Quote: 	
		   of the wing, like the Firestar.



 Dennis Kirby


	


Dennis:



Sorry, but mkIII's have always be designed and kitted with the lower half of 

the rear fuselage covered.



Seemed to me to be an ideal place to put a big fuel tank and get some use 

out of that big empty space.  We ended up with a nice 25 gal useable 

aluminum tank.



Nope, that is an original Hauck design change, not Kolb.



john h

mkIII

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_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Steven Green

Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 118

Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:56 pm Post subject: Cleaning up a Mark-III

Dennis,



My MKIII is also open behind cabin on the upper part.  I discussed closing 

it in with Mr. Kolb at TNK and what he thought the difference would be.  He 

thought the advantage would be very little for aerodynamics.  If I ever do 

any work in that area I will probably still close it in for the cargo space.



John H. and I flew within sight of each other for about 13 hours last May. 

Both planes are Kolb Mark 3s with 912Ss and a lot of differences otherwise . 

I used 0.25 - 0.5 gph less than he did.  I realize this is apples and 

oranges but I tend to agree with Mr. Kolb that enclosing the back is not 

going to make a big difference in aerodynamics.



John H. We should have done a side by side full throttle run and compared 

top speeds.  Maybe next time!



Steven

Planning to fly this Sunday evening



 	  Quote: 	
		   Earlier Mark-IIIs (like Hauck's) had fabric all the way up to the bottom

 of the wing, like the Firestar.  This configuration seems like it would

 be less draggy, as the airflow coming around the fuselage sides would

 follow a more streamlined and uniform path toward the prop.  On my

 Mark-III, the airflow spills around the aft edge of my doors, separates,

 and (I'm sure) crates turbulent eddy currents (which equals gobs of

 drag) in that whole area aft of the cabin.  This was one of the design

 improvement goals that New Kolb set out to achieve with the Xtra, I've

 been told.



 Would it help reduce drag by simply adding a flat panel to each upper

 side of the fuselage cage, to keep the airflow moving?  I'm thinking of

 using 1/16" Lexan, attached using Adel clamps to the cage tubes in that

 area.



 Somebody on this List once said that the biggest ways to increase our

 Kolbs' performance is to concentrate efforts on ways of reducing drag.

 This fuselage panel thing seems to fall in that category.  Opinions?

 Thanks -



 Dennis Kirby

 912ul, Powerfin-72, in

 Cedar Crest, NM

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_________________
Steven Green

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:42 am Post subject: Cleaning up a Mark-III

Seemed to me to be an ideal place to put a big fuel tank and get some use 

out of that big empty space.  We ended up with a nice 25 gal useable

aluminum tank.>>



Sounds a great idea John. Wish I could get away with that over here.



What did it do to your weight and C of G?



Pat

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slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:53 pm Post subject: Cleaning up a Mark-III

The break just behind the aft door opening has to cause flow  

problems.  I'm thinking about

a panel that could be fabbed out of foam and hard faced that could be  

fastened on that flat

area.  Ideally it would incorporate a clear upper panel to the top of  

the cage.

Only a couple of internal wing nuts to remove.  The leading edge  

would be smoothed with

tape.

-not too good for a supersonic aircraft but maybe ok for a Kolb.



The flat spot at the back is sure begging for a tapered wedge which,  

again, could be removable.

Thinking is easier than working.

BB

do not archive



On 30, Jan 2008, at 12:48 PM, Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.af.mil>





 Richard Pike wrote:  << The MKIII is coming into the garage tomorrow,

 some more mods to the fuselage area, try to improve the airflow around

 the fuselage upper rear, ... see if cleaning up that little flat area

 about 10" ahead of the prop arc will do anything. >>



 Kolb Friends -



 I was thinking of trying to make improvements in this area as well.



 I, too, built my Mark-III with the upper half of the rear fuselage pod

 open.  I believe this contributes to a large chunk of the overall drag

 on my plane.



 Earlier Mark-IIIs (like Hauck's) had fabric all the way up to the  

 bottom

 of the wing, like the Firestar.  This configuration seems like it  

 would

 be less draggy, as the airflow coming around the fuselage sides would

 follow a more streamlined and uniform path toward the prop.  On my

 Mark-III, the airflow spills around the aft edge of my doors,  

 separates,

 and (I'm sure) crates turbulent eddy currents (which equals gobs of

 drag) in that whole area aft of the cabin.  This was one of the design

 improvement goals that New Kolb set out to achieve with the Xtra, I've

 been told.



 Would it help reduce drag by simply adding a flat panel to each upper

 side of the fuselage cage, to keep the airflow moving?  I'm  

 thinking of

 using 1/16" Lexan, attached using Adel clamps to the cage tubes in  

 that

 area.



 Somebody on this List once said that the biggest ways to increase our

 Kolbs' performance is to concentrate efforts on ways of reducing drag.

 This fuselage panel thing seems to fall in that category.  Opinions?

 Thanks -



 Dennis Kirby

 912ul, Powerfin-72, in

 Cedar Crest, NM

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apilot(at)surewest.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:59 pm Post subject: Cleaning up a Mark-III

I have thought that this was an interference area.  My thoughts are to add two or three larger type vortex generators to each side so that the air will spin and climb to the area of the prop for more prop efficiency.  Easy to try.    Vic in Sacramento

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JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:35 pm Post subject: Re: Cleaning up a Mark-III

 	  John Hauck wrote: 	
		  > Earlier Mark-IIIs (like Hauck's) had fabric all the way up to the bottom

 	  Quote: 	
		   of the wing, like the Firestar.



 Dennis Kirby



	


Dennis:



Seemed to me to be an ideal place to put a big fuel tank and get some use 

out of that big empty space.  We ended up with a nice 25 gal useable 

aluminum tank.



Nope, that is an original Hauck design change, not Kolb.



john h

mkIII 	




That is a lot of gas  !



Can you carry 2 people with full gas if you want to ?  How much weight have you carried in your MK III ?



Mike

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_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:09 pm Post subject: Cleaning up a Mark-III

> Can you carry 2 people with full gas if you want to ?  How much weight 

have you carried in your MK III ?

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Mike


	




Mike B:



Yes, my mkIII flies with two up, their camping and survival gear, food, and 

clothes, plus 25 gallons (150 lbs) fuel.



Brother Jim and I flew to Cedar Mills, TX, in 1998, for their flyin on Lake 

Texoma.  From their down to Dallas and then back to Alabama.  It was very 

hot during that trip.  We cruised 8,500 feet to get a little relief from the 

heat.



Flies pretty good loaded up.  After about a week of taking off at max gross, 

near 1,200 lbs, the feel of the heavy mkIII becomes normal, and I do not 

have those feelings that it may be flying a little sluggish.  Except, of 

course, when the DA is extremely high and elevation is well above a mile. 

Then climb is degraded for a mkIII.  Which means, we ain't climbing 1500 to 

2000 feet per minute.



Have put a lot of hours on Miss P'fer with take off weight at 1,200 lbs. 

She does good.



One of the nice things about flying to and in Alaska is low altitude.  Most 

areas are 2,500 feet and down.  I can fly to the North Slope through Atigun 

Pass, but must climb to 5,000 feet or higher to get through.  By flying from 

Bettles to Anaktuvuk Pass, I don't have to get much over 2,500 feet to get 

to the North Slope.



Today, chores are keeping me at 350 feet msl.  ;-(



john h

mkIII

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_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

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